Steroid use in the NBA? (split from K-Mart thread)

[1kingzfan]

It is honestly very puzzling to me...

My opinion is that many good Kings fans, although they mostly generally like what they have seen, still just cannot believe what they are seeing with Kevin's progression.

I think those that are critical also don't care for:

* the way Kevin gets his points (different in many ways from Lebron and Kobe, lots of trips to the line due to his explosive speed and no current post-up game)

* how Kevin is not a vocal leader on the floor (with his mouth yapping or arms waving constantly at teammates, refs, and everyone else)

* his slender physique (and that he has not taken steroids like Kobe and LeBron)

It's the St. Thomas Syndrome.

I just prefer to accept him for what he is and what he still can rise up further to be, and it's been fun watching him to do just that.

What is his ceiling? Has Kevin reached it, or is there more room to grow? I feel that it is the latter, and hopefully he will be working on bolstering up those areas where he can improve this summer.

 

[Vlade4GM]

My opinion is that many good Kings fans, although they mostly generally like what they have seen, still just cannot believe what they are seeing with Kevin's progression.

I think those that are critical also don't care for:

* the way Kevin gets his points (different in many ways from Lebron and Kobe, lots of trips to the line due to his explosive speed and no current post-up game)

* how Kevin is not a vocal leader on the floor (with his mouth yapping or arms waving constantly at teammates, refs, and everyone else)

* his slender physique (and that he has not taken steroids like Kobe and LeBron)

It's the St. Thomas Syndrome.

I just prefer to accept him for what he is and what he still can rise up further to be, and it's been fun watching him to do just that.

What is his ceiling? Has Kevin reached it, or is there more room to grow? I feel that it is the latter, and hopefully he will be working on bolstering up those areas where he can improve this summer.

Ad hominem much?

And your proof of your alleged Kobe and LeBron steroid use?

 

[1kingzfan]

Ad hominem much?

And your proof of your alleged Kobe and LeBron steroid use?

Observation over time and common sense.

They both had some, if not a lot, of unnatural help.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Observation over time and common sense.

They both had some, if not a lot, of unnatural help.

100% conjecture right there.

 

[1kingzfan]

100% conjecture right there.

I call's 'em as I see's 'em.

I also saw two past off-seasons where both Webber and Bibby suddenly re-appeared after a summer looking incredibly buff. Hard weight training for 3 months? Nope, not possible in that short period of time. Saw the same thing with Kobe a number of years ago. LeBron came out of HS looking like he was 28 years old.

I have covered high school sports in my past and seen firsthand the prevalence of steroids in high school sports, the pressure being there to do it or get passed by others who were getting stronger at a faster clip. It's out there, and to ignore it is foolhardy.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I call's 'em as I see's 'em.

I also saw two past off-seasons where both Webber and Bibby suddenly re-appeared after a summer looking incredibly buff. Hard weight training for 3 months? Nope, not possible in that short period of time. Saw the same thing with Kobe a number of years ago. LeBron came out of HS looking like he was 28 years old.

I have covered high school sports in my past and seen firsthand the prevalence of steroids in high school sports, the pressure being there to do it or get passed by others who were getting stronger at a faster clip. It's out there, and to ignore it is foolhardy.

Wow, so on the basis that your amateur medical opinion (I assume) that a player can't gain that much muscle mass in that period of time and that it does happen on a high school level must mean that Kobe and LeBron did it?

Like I said, conjecture.

 

[Widowmaker2k]

An interesting article on the steroids (non)issue:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2035336

 

[Spike]

...On "steriod use", I feel as though we've had this discussion before. I've personally put on 40 lbs in one school year using creatine, protein, and Papa John's pizza (hey, I didn't say it was good weight.) To say that professional athletes cannot put on weight or increase muscle mass in an off-season with the assistance of team trainers is short-sighted. BTW, you can LOSE weight and look more defined and "buff", if you will. That just takes dedication. I don't think it's ridiculous for an athlete to put on 20 lbs of muscle in an offseason naturally, especially if you gain weight easily.

 

[DocHolliday]

My opinion is that many good Kings fans, although they mostly generally like what they have seen, still just cannot believe what they are seeing with Kevin's progression.

I think those that are critical also don't care for:

* the way Kevin gets his points (different in many ways from Lebron and Kobe, lots of trips to the line due to his explosive speed and no current post-up game)

* how Kevin is not a vocal leader on the floor (with his mouth yapping or arms waving constantly at teammates, refs, and everyone else)

* his slender physique (and that he has not taken steroids like Kobe and LeBron)

It's the St. Thomas Syndrome.

I just prefer to accept him for what he is and what he still can rise up further to be, and it's been fun watching him to do just that.

What is his ceiling? Has Kevin reached it, or is there more room to grow? I feel that it is the latter, and hopefully he will be working on bolstering up those areas where he can improve this summer.

The steroid allegation against Lebron and Kobe is utterly ridiculous. If you look at Kobe he has always had a great physique. He's become a little bigger, and that's because of age, maturation of the body, and the metabolism slowing down that allowed him to retain more muscle even though he's running just as much.

Lebron has freakish genes. I went to school with a guy that was 6' 4" and was as big as Lebron James when he entered the league muscle wise, and this guy was a sophmore. I used to work out with him and he was not using, as clean as could be.

Do not make such serious allegations (especially about steroids in this era) against an athelete just because you are jealous of his genetic make up.

 

[Cal-Kings]

The steroid allegation against Lebron and Kobe is utterly ridiculous. If you look at Kobe he has always had a great physique. He's become a little bigger, and that's because of age, maturation of the body, and the metabolism slowing down that allowed him to retain more muscle even though he's running just as much.

Lebron has freakish genes. I went to school with a guy that was 6' 4" and was as big as Lebron James when he entered the league muscle wise, and this guy was a sophmore. I used to work out with him and he was not using, as clean as could be.

Do not make such serious allegations (especially about steroids in this era) against an athelete just because you are jealous of his genetic make up.

So Sophomore's in high schools don't take steroids?

My suspicion is that steroid use in the NBA is rampant and ignored. Let's remember Alonzo Mourning's kidney issue. Followed by a panic attack by Shaq worried he might have the same problem. Oh yeah, that was from taking "anti-inflamatories." Right.

The rest is just looking at some of these guys. Use your eyes.

I have no proof. It just seems too obvious to me.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Who needs proof when you have wild speculation?

 

[Cal-Kings]

Who needs proof when you have wild speculation?

It's not "wild speculation" when we just look at what's right in front of our eyes.

Then there's blind denial of what we see right in front of our eyes.

Either way. If it came out that steroid use was rampant in the NBA, would anyone really be surprised?

 

[VF21]

One thing to keep in mind about steroid use? Allegedly it was a positive test for the steroid prednisone that got Webber suspended, NOT marijuana use. Since those things are never made public, however, we most likely will never know for sure...

 

[hammystyle]

It's not "wild speculation" when we just look at what's right in front of our eyes.

Then there's blind denial of what we see right in front of our eyes.

Either way. If it came out that steroid use was rampant in the NBA, would anyone really be surprised?

I'd be shocked. What do you see in front of your eyes? Tall lean athletes? That's what I see. They're cut obviously, but they are just lean and angular. There is a clear delineation between how your average basketball and average football player looks (where steroids, HGH and whatever are definitely rampant). There are some guys who look like possibilities I guess, but I think its much more the exception than the rule. A guy like Dahntay Jones would seem like a possibility, a fringe guy with an incredible physique who could be looking for an edge.

Accusing Kobe is crazy, he's not really that big. Lebron I guess that could be one possibility for his physical ridiculousness, but I highly highly doubt it.

 

[Vlade4GM]

It's not "wild speculation" when we just look at what's right in front of our eyes.

Then there's blind denial of what we see right in front of our eyes.

Either way. If it came out that steroid use was rampant in the NBA, would anyone really be surprised?

Hmm..bball players sometimes bulk up, I guess that means they must be on steroids

Unless you're a doctor it's just you speculating, you don't know what kind of weight training program these guys are on and you don't know what is and what isn't possible without steroids.

 

[DocHolliday]

So Sophomore's in high schools don't take steroids?

My suspicion is that steroid use in the NBA is rampant and ignored. Let's remember Alonzo Mourning's kidney issue. Followed by a panic attack by Shaq worried he might have the same problem. Oh yeah, that was from taking "anti-inflamatories." Right.

The rest is just looking at some of these guys. Use your eyes.

I have no proof. It just seems too obvious to me.

Your no logic has none. The point was not that a sophmore in highschool doesn't take steroids. The point was that certain people are very genetically gifted. People can achieve what we consider unachievable physiques with good genes and hard work.

And, EXACTLY, You have NO proof. Not one little drop. Alonzo was always a big guy, Shaq was alwys a big guy. Yes he was not as big at 19, but who is. His body matured naturally. Seriously, why would a 7' 2" guy that is VERY athletic need steroids that's ridiculous.

Also, if you know anything about the body, or training for sports you would know steroid use does the exact OPPOSITE of what basketball players need to happen as it pertains to ligaments and tendons.

 

[Bricklayer]

Oh goodness.

So first the rest of the league is randomly slimed for the sake of Kevin, because obviously if you are not a skinny little **** you must be using steroids, and then the completely baseless initial assertion, made just to glorify a favorite player, gets taken and run with as if there was an actual story here?

Kevin himself entered the league with the body of a 12 year old child. He had virtually no muscle mass, and combined with his youthful face could easily have been mistaken for a (very tall) 15 yr old. Our cheerleaders were more ripped. And look at him now -- he is still scrawny, and always will be, but his body is night and day, and my bet is it wasn't steroids, it was working out every single day with the aid of professional trainers. Now a guy starts out with the genes for a real body, and he works out every day for 10 straight years, you know what he ends up looking like? Kobe. A Kevin fan complaining that the rest of the league must be using roids is no different than a Keira Knightley fan saying that Angelina Jolie must have implants. No (as she has been kind enough to display on a number of occasions) she was just born with something that your girl was not.

These are 500 of the elite athletes in the entire world. Ok, maybe 400 of the elite athletes, and then a smattering of Brad Millers and Nick Fazekases. But the vast majority of these guys are as far from you or I as can be. In the entire 60yr history of the league there have been a handful of people that gifted born in the entire Sacramento region. And there will always be cheaters, or attempted cheaters. Always with so much money at stake. But basketball is not baseball, did not have its head in the sand, and has had steroid testing since the 90s at least. These are PROFESIONAL atheletes. This is their job. The ones who take that term seriously work at their job of being an amazing athlete same way you work at your computer. You sit their, drink coffee, munch muffins, and work on a spreadsheet, they hit the gym, hit the courts, do some roadwork. You could never look like them -- you do not have the genes. But you would look pretty damn snazzy yourself compared to the "normal" you if your while life revolved around physical activity and you had an army of cooks, trainers and workout partners to help you every single day.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Kevin fan complaing that the rest of the league must be using roids is no different than a Keira Knightley fan syaing that Angelina Jolie must have implants. No (as she has been kind enough to display on a number of occasions) she was just born with something that your girl was not.

Awesome...greatest analogy I've ever read on Kingsfans. LMAO

 

[Superman]

One thing to keep in mind about steroid use? Allegedly it was a positive test for the steroid prednisone that got Webber suspended, NOT marijuana use. Since those things are never made public, however, we most likely will never know for sure...

How come nobody was listening to me when I said that originally? I said that when I first heard that he was in violation of the "substance abuse policy". I wish we could find out for sure.

 

[vladetomiller]

I would have doubted Bron, but him signing up for olympics erased that doubt. Olympics tests are not controlled by stern and are pretty random. If at all anything the chinese will try to tested all the players from nba.

Oh by your analogy, given that most chinese you see are 5'-5'6" Yao must be on some serious steroids

 

[Superman]

It's not "wild speculation" when we just look at what's right in front of our eyes.

Then there's blind denial of what we see right in front of our eyes.

Either way. If it came out that steroid use was rampant in the NBA, would anyone really be surprised?

What's right in front of your eyes are world-class athletes who are paid more than most people's entire families make in a lifetime for playing 82 games of basketball, and they spend a good deal of money on nutritionists, personal trainers, personal chefs, and gym memberships ( ) to take care of their bodies.

People keep throwing around the argument that a player can't put on 15-20 pounds of muscle in a four month period like it's fact. People were saying that when it was reported last fall that Kevin had put on some muscle. It's not fact. And it's not fact that the only way you can put on that kind of muscle is by using illegal supplements. It's fiction, and it's irresponsible to jump to those kind of conclusions.

I could leave it at that, the way that the "they must be using because they look too good" crowd does, but I'll present facts to support my case:

There are 454 grams in a pound. A 220 pound athlete with a body fat percentage of about 10% (which is probably high) would have to consume about 60-70 grams of protein daily to maintain that weight, and would get about that much from a normal diet. If that athlete added two protein shakes a day (about 60 grams of protein), spent about one hour a day lifting weights and about 40 minutes burning fat, he would be able to add just about a pound of muscle every week, which would be about 16 pounds over the course of four months, depending on his metabolism. On top of that, he would be reducing his body fat percentage, and would in turn look more muscular.

The fact that professional basketball players spend a lot more than a couple hours a day training, in addition to the fact that they take supplements vitamin complexes to improve their workouts, and it's not hard to see how a top level athlete can put on 15-20 pounds of muscle in the offseason.

Their bodies also respond differently to weight training in the offseason, because they're not playing games. When you play basketball and other sports that get your heart rate up and sustained for a long period of time (anaerobic activity), your body actually metabolizes a good deal of muscle. So when they are able to better monitor and control their heart rate during the offseason, they manage their weight better, and it's easier to build muscle.

I'm not arguing that no one is taking illegal PEDs in the NBA, because I'm sure that some of them are. I am, however, proving that it's not necessary to put on muscle. Any reasonably fit man can put on 15 pounds of muscle in a four month period, assuming he trains right. It's irresponsible to claim that anyone who comes back in the fall looking bigger and stronger must be juicing, and it's not fair to the people who get in the weight room and work hard to get in better shape, and do it clean.

 

[Rookie]

...On "steriod use", I feel as though we've had this discussion before. I've personally put on 40 lbs in one school year using creatine, protein, and Papa John's pizza (hey, I didn't say it was good weight.) To say that professional athletes cannot put on weight or increase muscle mass in an off-season with the assistance of team trainers is short-sighted. BTW, you can LOSE weight and look more defined and "buff", if you will. That just takes dedication. I don't think it's ridiculous for an athlete to put on 20 lbs of muscle in an offseason naturally, especially if you gain weight easily.

Just to back you up...

I joined the army weighing 105lbs. Two months of basic training (I ate everything they gave, even stuff i don't like, and worked my *** off) 120lbs!!!!. Fastest runner, 100 push ups in 1 min 10 secs, 96 situps in 2 min (maxed points is ~82 push up/situps in 2 min, I'm gloating ). It can be done with a good diet and lots of work, unless the Army gave me steroid.

Now I can sit still and does nothing for two months and gain 10lbs .

 

[Bibby_10]

One thing to keep in mind about steroid use? Allegedly it was a positive test for the steroid prednisone that got Webber suspended, NOT marijuana use. Since those things are never made public, however, we most likely will never know for sure...

Prednisone is a corticosteroid. It is therefore catabolic not anabolic.
Catabolic steroids have the opposite effect of anabolic steroids. They break down muscle mass instead of build them. They are frequently used to reduce significant swelling and to treat autoimmune diseases. They may have been trying to hide a significant injury Webber may have had. I dont know if C-Webb ever used any kind of anabolic steroid, but I do know he didn't increase his mass, strength or endurance using Prednisone.

 

[Superman]

Prednisone is a corticosteroid. It is therefore catabolic not anabolic.
Catabolic steroids have the opposite effect of anabolic steroids. They break down muscle mass instead of build them. They are frequently used to reduce significant swelling and to treat autoimmune diseases. They may have been trying to hide a significant injury Webber may have had. I dont know if C-Webb ever used any kind of anabolic steroid, but I do know he didn't increase his mass, strength or endurance using Prednisone.

Considering the operations and the extensive rehab he went through, I could see why he would be treated with Prednisone. I think the question is whether that is on the NBA's banned substances list.

It doesn't really matter, as we'll likely never know the truth (unless I can get my hands on Stu Jackson and practice my waterboarding techniques). But I always thought that he did something other than smoke weed. Just my intuition.

 

[PacMan]

Considering the operations and the extensive rehab he went through, I could see why he would be treated with Prednisone. I think the question is whether that is on the NBA's banned substances list.

It doesn't really matter, as we'll likely never know the truth (unless I can get my hands on Stu Jackson and practice my waterboarding techniques). But I always thought that he did something other than smoke weed. Just my intuition.

I dont see how Prednisone would be consider a ban substance. It's a prescription drug. I've seen it prescribe for severe case of asthma as well as allergies during this time of the year.

 

[Superman]

I dont see how Prednisone would be consider a ban substance. It's a prescription drug. I've seen it prescribe for severe case of asthma as well as allergies during this time of the year.

There are some prescription drugs and even over the counter medications and supplements that have banned substances in them; not necessarily illegal, but on the NBA's (and some other sports league's and Olympic) banned substances list. I don't know about Prednisone, and I know that is is common -- I even took it from time to time when I was younger for asthma -- but it could still be a banned substance.

You can be legally prescribed anabolic steroids, but that doesn't mean that your league will consider you eligible.