Should Paul Stay or GO?

What should we do with this guy???


  • Total voters
    108
I have a question for those who want to fire Westphal now. If you felt that way before the season ever started, fine, there is nothing that will change your mind. But, if it is based on the first 5 games, what exactly were your expectations? Realistically what did you expect the Kings record to be? With the teams they have played, 5-0 is just absurd, and 4-1 is even pushing it a bit. So, if you are an optimist and thought ... "Hey, with the right guidance, this team should be 3-2", then 2-3 means fire the coach? I haven't liked the way the team has looked at times either, but seriously ... it has been just over a week, with a limited training camp. Tempers flair when things go bad ... everybody seems happy when it is working. Just give them a couple weeks. If the team still seems in a funk and the offense still looks lost ... then you start looking at whether the coach has lost the players.
I always considered him a placeholder. Saw no point in firing him, the record has nothing to do with it. It is his attitude that is the problem, he has lost the players. It isn't the first time it has happened. It isn't just Cousins. I forgave a lot of it because I don't think this team is ready to win yet and I thought a steady hand and guiding voice was better than a coaching carousel. However it has gotten to the point where he may actually be damaging this team in both the short and long terms and that is why he needs to go.
 
I have a question for those who want to fire Westphal now. If you felt that way before the season ever started, fine, there is nothing that will change your mind. But, if it is based on the first 5 games, what exactly were your expectations? Realistically what did you expect the Kings record to be? With the teams they have played, 5-0 is just absurd, and 4-1 is even pushing it a bit. So, if you are an optimist and thought ... "Hey, with the right guidance, this team should be 3-2", then 2-3 means fire the coach? I haven't liked the way the team has looked at times either, but seriously ... it has been just over a week, with a limited training camp. Tempers flair when things go bad ... everybody seems happy when it is working. Just give them a couple weeks. If the team still seems in a funk and the offense still looks lost ... then you start looking at whether the coach has lost the players.

I will start by saying that I wanted him fired at the end of last season, but when he wasn't I was willing to give him a chance to prove himself. I also didn't expect everything to be perfect right away. However, it is not just the poor play that has me upset with our head coach. The entire team has looked lost on offense, with several of our main players voicing their confusion. Westphal himself has expressed our offense as almost a freelance oppotunity for our players (with little structure and no set plays). And to top it off, he has thrown one of our best players under the bus in front of the whole NBA community (without cause IMO). These statements and actions (along with the teams poor play) would get almost any coach fired, especially when that coaches' tract record with the team is already poor to begin with.
 
It's just a reminder of the mob mentality in web forums like these. You get a large enough critical mass of angry people on one issue (regardless of how strong their argument really is) and absent strong opposition opinion swings very hard in one direction. It's getting to the point where you might be able to gather enough Angry Anti-Westphals on here to lead a literal torch-and-pitchfork march to PW's house.

Well, the same (or nearly the same) level of rhetoric was aimed at Rick Adelman in his final days. Looking back, it was clearly a mistake. The question isn't whether Adelman or Westphal is the better coach. The question is whether the level of vitriol has superceded the appropriate level. My take? It has. By a lot.

There may be a little bit of a mob mentality going on. But I think it's more that people are hearing what the players are saying, learning about Westphal's past, witnessing the ongoing lack of structure or improvement on the team, etc. and just coming to the conclusion that even if Westphal isn't the whole problem, he's certainly a good part of it.

Einstein said, "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".

I think that principle applies here. Nothing has changed under Westphal (at least not for the positive) and there’s no signs that it will.

It’s wholly different from the Adlemen situation. The Adlemen situation was an example of spoiled fans turning on a coach who was doing as well as could be expected with what he had after the loss of his star player. People didn’t care that he lost Webber and Vlade retired, they still wanted 60 win seasons and conference finals. Nevermind that Webber was now Martin and Vlade now Miller.

Westphal situation is the polar opposite. Adleman was working with declining talent and still managing to make the playoffs. Westphal has had more talent to work with each year yet still has failed to make a stitch of progress. It’s not even a case of this is no longer working. It’s a case of this never worked, still doesn’t work, and shows no signs that it ever will work. At some point you have to heed the words of Einstein...
 
Last edited:
Cousins has a lot of growing up still to do. But a few things are clear imo. The relationship with he and our coach is going south. I don't see it getting better. Let this last too much longer, I'd think Cousins and his agent will remember all of it when we put our contract extension on the table two years from now.

Also, while Cousins has blown up in the past, he also come out every single time looking extremely sorry for his actions, and apologized. That did not happen this time. Nothing close to an apology. In fact, to this minute, it appears both he and his agent strongly refute Westy's side of things. Immaturity is a common theme with Cousins. Lying however, is not.

Some think Westy is doing the right thing, and handling this the right way. Really isn't middle ground to be had. Either our head coach is handling it correctly, or he is not, and therefor should be let go. Can't have our had coach handling this partly correctly, and act as if that is an ok standard for a pro franchise. Either Westy knows 100% how to handle Cousins and this situation correctly, or he's the wrong man for the job. I don't think he has handled this correctly at all.

I ask myself why Cousins high school and college coach knew how to deal with Cousins personality more effectively. I ask why Westy has had issues like this in every NBA stop he's been a head coach. I ask why players have come out publicly and questioned his system. Then I ask, why don't other well respected coaches around the league have situations like this pop up?

I get the strong impression Westy lied, and if not, and it wasn't a flat out lie, he stretched the truth publicly on multiple occasions. Even if disciplining Cousins was thr right move, if he was anything less than 100% truthful with the media, and I don't think he was, then we're making excuses for a coach who has been around the league for two decades, and basically saying him not being truthful isn't as big of a problem as DeMarcus's immaturity, and therefor it's ok.

That is a toxic situation which will not improve.If the FO sides with a coach who wasn't truthful with the media while throwing Cousins under the bus, the chances sky rocket that Cousins does not sign an extension here. At that point it isn't about who's the coach, but that our FO sided with a liar over a franchise cornerstone.

Are there other coaches that would have prevented a scenario like this? I think so. Are there other coaches who can get through to Cousins more effectively? I think so. Have these problems occurred more than once before in Westy's previous stops? Yes they have. Is Cousins the only immature kid to come into the league? No he isn't, and other coaches have prevented this kind of a scene from happening. In his time here, which youngster on our team can someone point to and say Westy has had a great, or even solid effect on? Can't think of one.

So yes, as I said, Cousins has a lot of growing to do. But I also think, we have an atmosphere here which lends itself to blowups like this. Yes Cousins has to grow, but is this the type of environment where an immature young adult will grow? No. I can't think of a single player we drafted aside from Peja, who excelled and played here during their prime. I'd go as afar as saying this goes beyond coaching, and that our organization as a whole is horrible at fostering and developing young talent.

If anyone would like to refute that, and give me any examples besides Peja of a player we drafted and excelled into his prime with us, I'm all ears.

I don't understand how a well known clown in Cousins can be given the benefit of the doubt over Westphal. If you make assumptions, then assume that Cousins is an immature idiot with a multi-million dollar contract who has been coddled since his middle teens. He thinks he's better than he is. He puts himself above the team. He thinks he knows best. He doesn't respect authority. He has little control over his emotions. You don't think gross immaturity and lying go hand in hand? Immature kids lie all the time because they don't want to be held accountable for what they say or what they do. Of course Cousins has it in him to lie.

The obvious difference between high school/college and the NBA is that now Cousins has a guaranteed contract getting paid millions. He now has more leverage. Like you say above - wait until a couple of years from now. Yeah, then the clown is going to have even more leverage. What a dangerous situation that is - a clown with a guaranteed multi-million dollar contract, a clown on whom spent the fifth pick in the draft. It's like giving a 12 year old brat millions of dollars and also legal authority over all of his affairs. Woe to the parents in that situation.

You're definitely on to something when you refer to the organizational inadequaties of the Kings in developing young talent. Part of it is organizational wussineess, which then translates to not holding players accountable. They appear now to be trying to rectify the situation with Cousins, for which they are taking tremendous heat from their fans who don't really care - they just want Cousins on the floor no matter what. If Cousins were drafted by the Spurs, this crap wouldn't be tolerated by the entire organization. The players would be all over him, the assistant coaches, the coach, the president (who happen to be one and the same) and owner. They speak with one voice. They would slam him for this. He would be ostracized and held in contempt until he changed his ways. Tony Parker didn't have the character issues of Cousins, but in his early years was repeatedly and wholeheartedly slammed by Pop, just crucified for his mediocre play. He took it like a man and became a much better player for it. Comparitively speaking, this organization treats its player like little girls. It's no wonder they don't develop their talent.
 
Last edited:
I don't see where this is a fair pole. all possibilities have Westphal leaving the team either at the end of the season or mid season. I think we should keep westphal. Finally, a coach stands up to a spoiled brat and everyone wants his head. that is why this league is going down the toilet.
 
I don't see where this is a fair pole. all possibilities have Westphal leaving the team either at the end of the season or mid season. I think we should keep westphal. Finally, a coach stands up to a spoiled brat and everyone wants his head. that is why this league is going down the toilet.

Maybe if he could actually coach a game it would be different. You know the main thing he is paid to do.
 
I don't see where this is a fair pole. all possibilities have Westphal leaving the team either at the end of the season or mid season. I think we should keep westphal. Finally, a coach stands up to a spoiled brat and everyone wants his head. that is why this league is going down the toilet.

You must be Peaches in disguise. Or Westphal. Have you seen the last 3 years? This organization's **** does not smell like roses. The coach sucks, his history has proven that, and if he was a proven coach like Adelman or any other successful coach, I might think differently.

Jesus Christ, I dread the Miami Heat game in Feb if PW is our coach then. I'm expecting a 120-72 score or some other blowout if the teams keep playing par for the course.
 
^^^^

I also think the problem goes even higher in the power structure but there is not much that can be done about that. It makes me pessimistic.

To the fans in general: was C-Webb less a problem? Check back into his early years and get back to me.


Interesting question. For the younger fans, lets remember or inform yee that Webber declared he wouldn't play for the Kings after they traded for him. The league thought the Kings would be forced to trade him or he would be a malcontent.

What the Kings did instead was assemble a team around him that benefited him, including a point guard he rather liked. Having a guy like Vlade helped a lot in leadership for a "troubled young big man".

And right now? The roster doesn't help anyone, it seems more in conflict with itself. The veteran leader is Chuck Hayes which is not nearly same as an all-star level center like Vlade was. The coach? Well, we've been over the coach enough. We also don't have a PG to feed the young big man easy buckets.
 
When PW decided to go to the media, he completely lost me. KEEP IT IN HOUSE!! Thats the mantra no matter the sport. He showed how hotheaded he is by going to the media because before he did that, this problem was nowhere to be found in the media. Now EVERYONE is talking about the dysfunctional kings. Not only are all our problems out but IF we were EVER considering trading Cousins, Westy has effectively killed his trade value. No matter how hotheaded or immature he is, he is a major part of this core. He needs to be handled correctly and Westy isn't up to it. HE NEEDS TO GO!!!!
It was a shrewd move on Westys part. If he is fired now, it is because of DMC, no matter how crappy a coach he has been. And then it will be seen by everyone that DMC got Westy fired, and who would want to come coach here thanks to that perception?

But he needs to be fired because his team is confused, off kilter, and hanging their heads. There is no continuity, there is no offense, there is no trust. The team does not trust each other. There is no discipline, there are no set plays, its chaos! There are no backdoor cuts, very little movement without the ball, and the team is shooting way too many jumpers which is why their FG% is so damn low.
 
It was a shrewd move on Westys part. If he is fired now, it is because of DMC, no matter how crappy a coach he has been. And then it will be seen by everyone that DMC got Westy fired, and who would want to come coach here thanks to that perception?

But he needs to be fired because his team is confused, off kilter, and hanging their heads. There is no continuity, there is no offense, there is no trust. The team does not trust each other. There is no discipline, there are no set plays, its chaos! There are no backdoor cuts, very little movement without the ball, and the team is shooting way too many jumpers which is why their FG% is so damn low.

I thought it was funny in last nights game where Grant blamed Jimmer for running his guy into Thomas going to the basket. Then they watched the replay and Jimmer had cut before Thomas started his drive and they switched the blame to Thomas. They said players need to know what others are doing on the court. Gee ya think if they had an actual offense then maybe they would !
 
Another thing to consider, how many run-ins has Westy had with players that questioned him/his offense/his game plan? How many former Kings? Dominic McGuire? Omri Casspi? Antoine Wright? Carl Landry? Spencer Hawes?

How can one not draw a conclusion from this that says the problem is not the players, its the man leading them. You don't fire the army for losing the battle, you fire the general.
 
I thought it was funny in last nights game where Grant blamed Jimmer for running his guy into Thomas going to the basket. Then they watched the replay and Jimmer had cut before Thomas started his drive and they switched the blame to Thomas. They said players need to know what others are doing on the court. Gee ya think if they had an actual offense then maybe they would !

I remember that play. Jimmer on the wing made his cut then Thomas decided to driva right into Jimmer's man who was following Jimmer. I shook my head when Grant made that call because it was obviously not Jimmers fault, there is no set play so they don't know when each other are going to cut or where they are going to cut to. Its chaos. Not even organized chaos. Sad.
 
Interesting question. For the younger fans, lets remember or inform yee that Webber declared he wouldn't play for the Kings after they traded for him. The league thought the Kings would be forced to trade him or he would be a malcontent.

What the Kings did instead was assemble a team around him that benefited him, including a point guard he rather liked. Having a guy like Vlade helped a lot in leadership for a "troubled young big man".

And right now? The roster doesn't help anyone, it seems more in conflict with itself. The veteran leader is Chuck Hayes which is not nearly same as an all-star level center like Vlade was. The coach? Well, we've been over the coach enough. We also don't have a PG to feed the young big man easy buckets.

Chris' college career was spectacular except years later he was indicted by a Federal grand jury and all his accomplishents and the accompolishments of that team were erased from the record books. He supposedly received $200,000 from a book maker and has been banned from any connection with the University of Michigan until 2013. Theree was suspicion that he was receiving money as far back as junior high.

He was NBA ROY but had conflicts with his coach. He spent one year with the Warriors because of the conflict.

He was arrested for a variety of offenses while with his second team, the Wizards. He was acquired by the Kings in a trade but almost did not report. A phone call with his dad solved that issue as his dad convinced him to show up.

He was suspened by the NBA for violatioon of substance abuse policies while a King.

It would be very easy to see him as a drug abusing criminal yet I doubt any Kings fan thinks of him in that way.

In the end he says he owes his now good reputation to his stay in Sacramento. Different coach, different players, more maturity, etc. can make a difference.
 
Chris' college career was spectacular except years later he was indicted by a Federal grand jury and all his accomplishents and the accompolishments of that team were erased from the record books. He supposedly received $200,000 from a book maker and has been banned from any connection with the University of Michigan until 2013. Theree was suspicion that he was receiving money as far back as junior high.

He was NBA ROY but had conflicts with his coach. He spent one year with the Warriors because of the conflict.

He was arrested for a variety of offenses while with his second team, the Wizards. He was acquired by the Kings in a trade but almost did not report. A phone call with his dad solved that issue as his dad convinced him to show up.

He was suspened by the NBA for violatioon of substance abuse policies while a King.

It would be very easy to see him as a drug abusing criminal yet I doubt any Kings fan thinks of him in that way.

In the end he says he owes his now good reputation to his stay in Sacramento. Different coach, different players, more maturity, etc. can make a difference.

Now imagine if Westphail was coach here instead of Rick when Webber came to town
 
Webber would demand a trade and the team on the cover of SI never existed.

Webber moved onto a new team joining Rick Adelman...never had an injury and contend for a championship for 3-4 years and playoff contender for years. End in the hall of fame with a great career. ;)
 
Westphal's face and demeanor during last night's post-game interview said it all - he's tired, testy and clueless. Team is in disarray, can't score, can't play defense, doesn't seem to want to play for Westphal (except the rookies). He needs to go immediately.
 
Westphal's face and demeanor during last night's post-game interview said it all - he's tired, testy and clueless. Team is in disarray, can't score, can't play defense, doesn't seem to want to play for Westphal (except the rookies). He needs to go immediately.

westphal's face and demeanor always shows a deer in the headlights
 
Westphal should stay if he's willing to start Jimmer at the 1 and Reke at the 2. It will take balls, but he has nothing to lose. Make the change and the team just may prosper. MT is a 6th man and would have a chance at the sixth man of the year award with about 12-15 off the bench.
 
I don't see where this is a fair pole. all possibilities have Westphal leaving the team either at the end of the season or mid season. I think we should keep westphal. Finally, a coach stands up to a spoiled brat and everyone wants his head. that is why this league is going down the toilet.

The first option is keep and resign him.
 
Back
Top