Russell Westbrook

QWERTYLICIOUS said:
I doubt that it's a cultural thing (unless I am so out of touch with my own culture that I have been severely blind to that fact).
I do think it's a personal issue/ego issue. And, unfortunately for all of us, only Vivek can fix it. No one's gonna do it for him.
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I don't personally know enough Indian people to say if there is some weird pride in doing it "the right way" but figured you might. I kind of get why he wanted to end the drought as it was embarrassing, now that we're ass again may as well rip off the bandaid.
 
Padrino said:
Any questions? Yes, plenty. Like, for example, what are we doing here? This is pretty much what I feared when the Kings announced the signing. Russ gets big minutes, gets to dominate the ball, gets his numbers, helps the Kings eke out wins against lesser and injury-depleted teams, and all at the expense of the team's younger and longer-term talent (Ellis w/ 17 mins, Carter w/ 5). I'm not particularly thrilled to watch the Kings milk the last ounce of basketball Westbrook's got left just to keep their sad, middling play-in dreams alive.
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Damn my man, that’s about as dark as Sylvia Plath’s Burn Book!
 
Padrino said:
Any questions? Yes, plenty. Like, for example, what are we doing here? This is pretty much what I feared when the Kings announced the signing. Russ gets big minutes, gets to dominate the ball, gets his numbers, helps the Kings eke out wins against lesser and injury-depleted teams, and all at the expense of the team's younger and longer-term talent (Ellis w/ 17 mins, Carter w/ 5). I'm not particularly thrilled to watch the Kings milk the last ounce of basketball Westbrook's got left just to keep their sad, middling play-in dreams alive.
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Even worse, by entertaining all those vets, the Kings have mastered the art of mediocrity, perfectly floating in no man’s land, stuck between a bottom feeder and a fringe playoff team. They’re not strong enough to seriously contend for the final playoff spots, yet not bad enough to land a high draft pick either. The NBA’s version of purgatory.
 
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pdxKingsFan said:
I've heard many people that have sat in a room for a one on one conversation say he cares passionately about winning and I am inclined to believe them I just don't think he is willing to accept that putting a G-League team on the NBA court is an acceptable way to get there.
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I'm sure that he cares and wants to win. I also think he's generally doing what he thinks is best for the team and has rightly allowed his GMs to handle most of the decision making. But he's crippled this team by being unable to settle on one long-term leadership vision. Vlade was there to appease the fans and he was generally pretty good at being an ambassador for the team but he was terrible at anything related to talent recognition and negotiation. The Monte McNair firing is hard for me to understand considering he was doing a very good job at the tasks which are essential to his role as GM. He never got that one big deal done which would propel the team forward but who's to say he wouldn't have if given another 5 years? If he kept finding success in the draft at the same rate, the team was bound to continue ascending while much of our competition in the Western Conference is rapidly aging out of relevance. Based on early returns, Scott Perry seems like he will land closer to Vlade than Monte in terms of his front office skillset so now the pendulum is swinging back the other way.

And the whole false dichotomy that we're either pushing for the play-in or we're a G-League team nobody will want to watch is exactly the problem. We did not need Zach LaVine, Dennis Schröder, and Russell Westbrook. Would we have been a worse team without them? Maybe -- but with more minutes for better defensive players and an offensive system that emphasized patience and efficiency I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that tanking was the only alternative. Look at what Chicago is doing right now with a roster full of mostly unknowns that the experts picked to finish in the bottom 5 of their conference. Look at what OKC did in 5 years by selling high on their aging vets and steadily building around young talent instead. Identity a style of basketball than can lead to wins, jettison everyone who doesn't fit that style of basketball, and look for opportunities to either trade for or draft and develop players who do. That's what a long-term plan would look like.
 
hrdboild said:
And the whole false dichotomy that we're either pushing for the play-in or we're a G-League team nobody will want to watch is exactly the problem. We did not need Zach LaVine, Dennis Schröder, and Russell Westbrook. Would we have been a worse team without them? Maybe -- but with more minutes for better defensive players and an offensive system that emphasized patience and efficiency I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that tanking was the only alternative. Look at what Chicago is doing right now with a roster full of mostly unknowns that the experts picked to finish in the bottom 5 of their conference. Look at what OKC did in 5 years by selling high on their aging vets and steadily building around young talent instead. Identity a style of basketball than can lead to wins, jettison everyone who doesn't fit that style of basketball, and look for opportunities to either trade for or draft and develop players who do. That's what a long-term plan would look like.
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On this point I 100% agree.

Carter
Ellis
Clifford
Murray
Sabonis

This is not a G-League team. Not even close. Ship out Sabonis, it's still not a G-League team. It's also not a winning team in the West, more than likely, but they're not a winning team as currently constructed! They're just spinning their wheels and letting guys like Ellis and Carter languish while guys approaching their 40s eat up all the minutes. It just makes... no sense whatsoever.
 
hrdboild said:
I'm sure that he cares and wants to win. I also think he's generally doing what he thinks is best for the team and has rightly allowed his GMs to handle most of the decision making. But he's crippled this team by being unable to settle on one long-term leadership vision. Vlade was there to appease the fans and he was generally pretty good at being an ambassador for the team but he was terrible at anything related to talent recognition and negotiation. The Monte McNair firing is hard for me to understand considering he was doing a very good job at the tasks which are essential to his role as GM. He never got that one big deal done which would propel the team forward but who's to say he wouldn't have if given another 5 years? If he kept finding success in the draft at the same rate, the team was bound to continue ascending while much of our competition in the Western Conference is rapidly aging out of relevance. Based on early returns, Scott Perry seems like he will land closer to Vlade than Monte in terms of his front office skillset so now the pendulum is swinging back the other way.

And the whole false dichotomy that we're either pushing for the play-in or we're a G-League team nobody will want to watch is exactly the problem. We did not need Zach LaVine, Dennis Schröder, and Russell Westbrook. Would we have been a worse team without them? Maybe -- but with more minutes for better defensive players and an offensive system that emphasized patience and efficiency I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that tanking was the only alternative. Look at what Chicago is doing right now with a roster full of mostly unknowns that the experts picked to finish in the bottom 5 of their conference. Look at what OKC did in 5 years by selling high on their aging vets and steadily building around young talent instead. Identity a style of basketball than can lead to wins, jettison everyone who doesn't fit that style of basketball, and look for opportunities to either trade for or draft and develop players who do. That's what a long-term plan would look like.
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OKC was one year removed from a finals run when they started selling. I mean, it worked out for them, but that's because Presti is a wizard. Not because their ownership is great. Chicago has to win something before we pat them on the back.

The average tenure of a GM across all sporting leagues is five years, aside from the first team he hired he gave them a fair chance. Do I wish that Monte had maybe been given one more year? I think that would have been fine by me, if only because we could see whatever he was trying to do if he was allowed to do anything once Fox quit on us.

I'm not impressed by Perry right now either, though he does seem to be good at building relationships where Monte may have stumbled in that department. Will that pay off over a similar time frame? Time will tell. A lot depends on if we carry DDR and Monk past the trade deadline and retain Keon. I am not feeling good about any of that right now. But hell, he could possibly have bought so low on Russ he turns into a FRP at the deadline from a contender, grab another Nique by moving him and that's a win moving forward. He doesn't seem to be a fan of Zach and if he can move his huge contract as an expiring for bad money and multiple picks, now we're talking.

I will say the one thing Perry hasn't done is made a terrible trade. I guess we will also find out in two years if we blew it with Kuminga when we see where we pick in 2027 and if Kuminga has reached potential. That may define his tenure here.

Will Vivek allow this? It will really define his ownership more than any past action imho.
 
Padrino said:
On this point I 100% agree.

Carter
Ellis
Clifford
Murray
Sabonis

This is not a G-League team. Not even close. Ship out Sabonis, it's still not a G-League team. It's also not a winning team in the West, more than likely, but they're not a winning team as currently constructed! They're just spinning their wheels and letting guys like Ellis and Carter languish while guys approaching their 40s eat up all the minutes. It just makes... no sense whatsoever.
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And the HUGE difference is if this team wins 40 games... fine. Its off the backs of our younger guys getting development, learning how to play in clutch situations, learning how to play together, etc. They can hopefully take that experience and progress further next season if/when some of that core takes a leap.

If they're bad, then at least we know and can move on. Or accept that they're capped at role players ans you need to find the right franchise cornerstones. You're not left wondering what Carter/Keon could be. You get an idea if Clifford is more a role player or someone who can be a feature option.
 
hrdboild said:
I'm sure that he cares and wants to win. I also think he's generally doing what he thinks is best for the team and has rightly allowed his GMs to handle most of the decision making. But he's crippled this team by being unable to settle on one long-term leadership vision. Vlade was there to appease the fans and he was generally pretty good at being an ambassador for the team but he was terrible at anything related to talent recognition and negotiation. The Monte McNair firing is hard for me to understand considering he was doing a very good job at the tasks which are essential to his role as GM. He never got that one big deal done which would propel the team forward but who's to say he wouldn't have if given another 5 years? If he kept finding success in the draft at the same rate, the team was bound to continue ascending while much of our competition in the Western Conference is rapidly aging out of relevance. Based on early returns, Scott Perry seems like he will land closer to Vlade than Monte in terms of his front office skillset so now the pendulum is swinging back the other way.

And the whole false dichotomy that we're either pushing for the play-in or we're a G-League team nobody will want to watch is exactly the problem. We did not need Zach LaVine, Dennis Schröder, and Russell Westbrook. Would we have been a worse team without them? Maybe -- but with more minutes for better defensive players and an offensive system that emphasized patience and efficiency I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that tanking was the only alternative. Look at what Chicago is doing right now with a roster full of mostly unknowns that the experts picked to finish in the bottom 5 of their conference. Look at what OKC did in 5 years by selling high on their aging vets and steadily building around young talent instead. Identity a style of basketball than can lead to wins, jettison everyone who doesn't fit that style of basketball, and look for opportunities to either trade for or draft and develop players who do. That's what a long-term plan would look like.
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two other teams that come to mind here are the Pacers and Mavericks, different set of circumstances of course considering star players are out for the year for both teams but they want to get in on this supposed deep draft and stockpile around what they have and they will be sitting pretty should they hit on those picks
 
Joshyjosh31 said:
Yet it was Sacramento or China
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Part of that was because a bunch of teams decided to run big lineups without a league guard to middling effect. The Mavs absolutely could use Russ right now instead of (a) destroying Cooper Flagg’s confidence by using him as a point guard for some reason or (b) using D-Lo because the Cooper at guard experiment went so bad that your team became unwatchable.
 
Tetsujin said:
Part of that was because a bunch of teams decided to run big lineups without a league guard to middling effect. The Mavs absolutely could use Russ right now instead of (a) destroying Cooper Flagg’s confidence by using him as a point guard for some reason or (b) using D-Lo because the Cooper at guard experiment went so bad that your team became unwatchable.
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I'm going to give Scott Perry all the credit in the world if the Kings manage to lose a significant number of games while Russ continues to go off, and then he flips him at the deadline for any kind of draft compensation to one of those play-in/playoff teams desperate for PG depth. That would be a huge win in my eyes, and it would force me to correct my present stance on the idiocy of the Kings' off-season and beyond. Seems a slim chance that such an event would occur, but I'll allow for its possibility.
 
Tetsujin said:
Part of that was because a bunch of teams decided to run big lineups without a league guard to middling effect. The Mavs absolutely could use Russ right now instead of (a) destroying Cooper Flagg’s confidence by using him as a point guard for some reason or (b) using D-Lo because the Cooper at guard experiment went so bad that your team became unwatchable.
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Mavs could use monk too just a clown show over there but we can’t talk

Padrino said:
I'm going to give Scott Perry all the credit in the world if the Kings manage to lose a significant number of games while Russ continues to go off, and then he flips him at the deadline for any kind of draft compensation to one of those play-in/playoff teams desperate for PG depth. That would be a huge win in my eyes, and it would force me to correct my present stance on the idiocy of the Kings' off-season and beyond. Seems a slim chance that such an event would occur, but I'll allow for its possibility.
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This is pure delusion if Russ is putting up numbers Vivek isn’t letting anyone trade him
 
Joshyjosh31 said:
This is pure delusion if Russ is putting up numbers Vivek isn’t letting anyone trade him
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Maybe. Maybe not. This is firmly in the "we'll see" category, especially if Russ is putting up numbers and the Kings are still a sub-.400 team at the deadline.
 
Joshyjosh31 said:
Mavs could use monk too just a clown show over there but we can’t talk



This is pure delusion if Russ is putting up numbers Vivek isn’t letting anyone trade him
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If and when the time is right they'll free him up. We've seen this before, players reestablishing themselves under the Kings banner as the Kings continuously stroll back to the starting line only making it about half way before turning around and doing the same thing over and over. Bad franchises are perpetually stuck playing catch up. The Kings already wasted the rookie contracts of Keegan and Keon. That extra room on the cap is critical to build a sustainable winner. Lets get real, the Kings have NEVER done the work to build that and aren't now. Fool me once...
 
https://twitter.com/x/status/1987350347598471628

Russ apparently being the only vet actually taking a kid under his wing only cements his status as a good signing even more. Just gotta clear the logjam so it’s just Russ and the young guys to really let them develop though. (Also special shoutout to Eubanks for also showing up to the Stockton game lol)
 
Tetsujin said:
Russ apparently being the only vet actually taking a kid under his wing only cements his status as a good signing even more. Just gotta clear the logjam so it’s just Russ and the young guys to really let them develop though. (Also special shoutout to Eubanks for also showing up to the Stockton game lol)
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That's the thing: in a vacuum, that was a good signing. In a version of reality where the Kings never signed Schröder, and got rid of DeRozan and LaVine (and Sabonis?) before the start of the season, Westbrook would have been a great signing. They could have just let Russ be Russ, give the kids maximum minutes, and whatever happened, happened.
 
Padrino said:
I'm going to give Scott Perry all the credit in the world if the Kings manage to lose a significant number of games while Russ continues to go off, and then he flips him at the deadline for any kind of draft compensation to one of those play-in/playoff teams desperate for PG depth. That would be a huge win in my eyes, and it would force me to correct my present stance on the idiocy of the Kings' off-season and beyond. Seems a slim chance that such an event would occur, but I'll allow for its possibility.
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I think I've used up all the benefit in my "benefit of the doubt." I've got no more benefit to give. Westbrook is filling the stat sheet for a losing team. Will that sucker some GM into giving up valuable capital for him in a trade? I doubt it. I give more benefit of the doubt to other GMs than to our own GM/Vivek at this point. And if I am right on this one, then Wesbrook's minutes are being squandered instead of being used to develop Clifford.
 
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