Race to the Bottom thread

Had we tanked and gotten a forward instead of Davion, say Kuminga to keep it more plausible, the chances are pretty good we never trade Haliburton because we don’t have such a log jam.

Yes but the premise of my post is that Monte tried to work within the bounds of fair play as the NBA wants to define them and did not tank and now we find ourselves as the worst team in the league while the team which won 17 games and 14 games in the two seasons when the Kings were actually good is now sitting on top of the standings. The point is tanking is a problem because it works and the latest CBA has made it almost impossible to build a team without tanking. The 'almost' is accounting for teams like LA and New York which will always attract top free agents when they have cap space. For Sacramento it may actually be impossible.

I also see you posting this take a lot and I find it painfully reductive. We don't know what would have happened if Kuminga or Wagner had been available for our pick. The lazy response is to assume that since Franz Wagner averaged 24 points per game last season on the Magic that he would have been the same player in the context of our team but to believe that you have to ignore that (1) He took 19 shots per game which he would not have gotten as a #3 in our offense. (2) He shot 29.5% from three last season, so do you really want him shooting that much anyway? (3) His career 3pt % is 32.5 which is worse than De'Aaron Fox so do you really want him shooting that much anyway? (4) There were 10 players who played at least 1000 minutes for the Magic that year and of those 10 players, only KCP and Tristan De Silva had worse individual defensive ratings than Wagner. Maybe he's not the potential savior he is made out to be?

And Kuminga.... well there are already 47 pages of back and forth about him on this message board, sitting there in the Personnel Moves sub-forum like a bad hangover. I like Kuminga, I've been in favor of trading for him and still am. And if we still want him, I'm sure he's available since Atlanta took him on mostly to get something for their Porzingis investment. I don't know that he was the guy which would have made Monte stay the course on Haliburton. That trade seemed to be more about giving Fox the best chance to succeed and most of us presumed Haliburton was the one traded because Fox had no trade value.

What I do know is that Monte inherited a team which had the worst defense in the league that season and he drafted two guys in Davion Mitchell and Neemias Queta who were likely the best defenders available at those spots and signed another the following year (Keon Ellis) as an undrafted free agent who has been damned good in that department too. He saw the problem and was working the solution but this CBA is slanted so far in favor of the players that he couldn't even keep what he built together for more than a year and a half. He had to trade away the 2023 first round pick (as the sweetener for Richaun Holmes' contract) just to create enough room under the cap to sign Sasha Vezenkov and JaVale McGee. And the following year he had to trade away Davion Mitchell to create the cap space to sign DeRozan. We all get to armchair GM without any chance of being proven wrong but I don't know that anyone could have done better given the circumstances.
 
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Yes but the premise of my post is that Monte tried to work within the bounds of fair play as the NBA wants to define them and did not tank and now we find ourselves as the worst team in the league while the team which won 17 games and 14 games in the two seasons when the Kings were actually good is now sitting on top of the standings. The point is tanking is a problem because it works and the latest CBA has made it almost impossible to build a team without tanking. The 'almost' is accounting for teams like LA and New York which will always attract top free agents when they have cap space. For Sacramento it may actually be impossible.

I also see you posting this take a lot and I find it painfully reductive. We don't know what would have happened if Kuminga or Wagner had been available for our pick. The lazy response is to assume that since Franz Wagner averaged 24 points per game last season on the Magic that he would have been the same player in the context of our team but to believe that you have to ignore that (1) He took 19 shots per game which he would not have gotten as a #3 in our offense. (2) He shot 29.5% from three last season, so do you really want him shooting that much anyway? (3) His career 3pt % is 32.5 which is worse than De'Aaron Fox so do you really want him shooting that much anyway? (4) There were 10 players who played at least 1000 minutes for the Magic that year and of those 10 players, only KCP and Tristan De Silva had worse individual defensive ratings than Wagner. Maybe he's not the potential savior he is made out to be?

And Kuminga.... well there are already 47 pages of back and forth about him on this message board, sitting there in the Personnel Moves sub-forum like a bad hangover. I like Kuminga, I've been in favor of trading for him and still am. And if we still want him, I'm sure he's available since Atlanta took him on mostly to get something for their Porzingis investment. I don't know that he was the guy which would have made Monte stay the course on Haliburton. That trade seemed to be more about giving Fox the best chance to succeed and most of us presumed Haliburton was the one traded because Fox had no trade value.

What I do know is that Monte inherited a team which had the worst defense in the league that season and he drafted two guys in Davion Mitchell and Neemias Queta who were likely the best defenders available at those spots and signed another the following year (Keon Ellis) as an undrafted free agent who has been damned good in that department too. He saw the problem and was working the solution but this CBA is slanted so far in favor of the players that he couldn't even keep what he built together for more than a year and a half. He had to trade away the 2023 first round pick (as the sweetener for Richaun Holmes' contract) just to create enough room under the cap to sign Sasha Vezenkov and JaVale McGee. And the following year he had to trade away Davion Mitchell to create the cap space to sign DeRozan. We all get to armchair GM without any chance of being proven wrong but I don't know that anyone could have done better given the circumstances.
I think most people could have done better. Now to be fair to Monte, Vivek tied his hands with regards to tanking. But even a limited tank that year would have netted us a forward without a stretch.

The draft in 2021 had
  • 1st: Cade Cunningham (Detroit Pistons)
  • 2nd: Jalen Green (Houston Rockets)
  • 3rd: Evan Mobley (Cleveland Cavaliers)
  • 4th: Scottie Barnes (Toronto Raptors)
  • 5th: Jalen Suggs (Orlando Magic)
  • 6th: Josh Giddey (Oklahoma City Thunder)
  • 7th: Jonathan Kuminga (Golden State Warriors)

  • 8th: Franz Wagner (Orlando Magic)

Had we responsibly tanked even to the lucky 7 spot we would have either jumped up to 4 which was Toronto’s spot or been in the Warriors spot looking at Kuminga or Wagner. Both of whom are better than what we have.

There are very few scenarios where we don’t come out of that draft with a forward. You might be one of the few people defending the Davion pick. And my hate for it is not revisionist history. I hated it at the time for the team and the player.
 
I think most people could have done better. Now to be fair to Monte, Vivek tied his hands with regards to tanking. But even a limited tank that year would have netted us a forward without a stretch.

The draft in 2021 had
  • 1st: Cade Cunningham (Detroit Pistons)
  • 2nd: Jalen Green (Houston Rockets)
  • 3rd: Evan Mobley (Cleveland Cavaliers)
  • 4th: Scottie Barnes (Toronto Raptors)
  • 5th: Jalen Suggs (Orlando Magic)
  • 6th: Josh Giddey (Oklahoma City Thunder)
  • 7th: Jonathan Kuminga (Golden State Warriors)

  • 8th: Franz Wagner (Orlando Magic)

Had we responsibly tanked even to the lucky 7 spot we would have either jumped up to 4 which was Toronto’s spot or been in the Warriors spot looking at Kuminga or Wagner. Both of whom are better than what we have.

There are very few scenarios where we don’t come out of that draft with a forward. You might be one of the few people defending the Davion pick. And my hate for it is not revisionist history. I hated it at the time for the team and the player.

I know this is more about Davion and how much you hate that pick than anything else. Because I'm agreeing with you about the tanking point-- we should have tanked that year. It was the smart move the way the league has set itself up to enable star players to make $60+ million a year while the teams that sign them to those deals get escalating penalties for trying to compete. And then that player will just force a trade to go where they want anyway.

And I also did not think Davion was the smart pick there. As I said before, I wanted either Jalen Johnson or Usman Garuba. Both big combo forwards who could shoot and defend. Garuba might have been something in the league if he went to a bad team that wanted to play him instead of going to Houston where he was never anything more than a trade chip. Who knows. I defend Davion because I like him as a player. Because he's one of the smartest defenders I've ever had the pleasure of watching and because being short is not his fault. He's done exceptionally well for himself to get to where he is now as a 6 foot tall guard. And I understand the logic behind picking him regardless of need for a front office which believed in their analytical approach and looked at the draft as an opportunity to develop and trade players to fill needs. They were right about Davion's talent but wrong that they would be able to trade him for fair value after not really playing him very much. A running theme really.
 
Speaking of the Spurs….I get so tired of everybody acting like they are such an amazing franchise. It’s super easy to say when you’ve had 3 generational #1 picks land in your lap spanning over a span of like 35 years.

Granted, they are still run better than our dumpster fire over here but the point is…it’s a lot easier to run a franchise when you have this kind of luck go your way.
 
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