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What a terrible idea. Why fix what's not broke? Instead of messing with the Pro Bowl, fix the stupid playoff seeding.
Pro Bowl to be held before the Super Bowl
- Thread starter Superman
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What a terrible idea. Why fix what's not broke? Instead of messing with the Pro Bowl, fix the stupid playoff seeding.
So the Pro Bowl - which is supposed to showcase the very best the league has to offer from each team - is going to be played BEFORE the Super Bowl? Great.
I know the Pro Bowl has become less and less attractive in recent years, but if this isn't the final nail in the coffin I don't know what is. I cannot even begin to imagine the **** storm if a player on one of the two contending teams actually showed up for the Pro Bowl, got hurt and couldn't compete the next week in the Super Bowl... which is exactlly the reason anyone from those two teams will not be there.
Hasn't the Pro Bowl always been held in Hawaii? Kind of a way for the guys who have, for the most part, been playing in the cold weather to get somewhere nice and warm?
I am really sick of all this shifting of playoff scheduling. I don't want to see the freaking Super Bowl in February.
I know the Pro Bowl has become less and less attractive in recent years, but if this isn't the final nail in the coffin I don't know what is. I cannot even begin to imagine the **** storm if a player on one of the two contending teams actually showed up for the Pro Bowl, got hurt and couldn't compete the next week in the Super Bowl... which is exactlly the reason anyone from those two teams will not be there.
Hasn't the Pro Bowl always been held in Hawaii? Kind of a way for the guys who have, for the most part, been playing in the cold weather to get somewhere nice and warm?
I am really sick of all this shifting of playoff scheduling. I don't want to see the freaking Super Bowl in February.
The Pro Bowl already was broken. Nobody watches it. Its terrible. There were rumors that they were going to axe it altogether, so this is apparently a last ditch effort to save it.
There was always a 2 week break between the conference championships and the Super Bowl, so it seems they are just putting it in the middle of that practice week.
Of course this means nobody on the SB teams will play in the Pro Bowl... STUPID!!! Just kill it, its pointless.
There was always a 2 week break between the conference championships and the Super Bowl, so it seems they are just putting it in the middle of that practice week.
Of course this means nobody on the SB teams will play in the Pro Bowl... STUPID!!! Just kill it, its pointless.
The thing about the Pro Bowl is that it's not for the fans, like the All-Star Break in the NBA and MLB. It's for the players.
I'll never forget seeing Osi Umenyiora get treated like a king in Hawaii last year, as the only representative from his Super Bowl Champion team at the Pro Bowl. It was his time to shine, and he deserved it for a great season and a great Super Bowl. And all indications from other players there were that they all enjoyed the experience. Even Romo and Owens sat down for an interview with NFL Network and the guys made fun of TO for crying at the press conference.
It's not a ratings machine, and it's not ever going to be one, even if it was held in the middle of the season. (By the way, the NFL is the one major league that awards its all stars based on what they've done through the majority of the season, as opposed to just the first half.) It's an opportunity for a bunch of guys to celebrate the end of a good season, for the coaches to wear Hawaiian print shirts and leis on the sidelines, and for none of the players to take the game seriously (except Peyton Manning, football's version of Kobe Bryant) until the fourth quarter.
So now, you have the best players and coaches from the best teams (assumedly) not going to the Pro Bowl because they're getting ready for the Super Bowl, and it just becomes a distracting spectacle, even more watered down than usual. It used to be a nice way to conclude the season; now it's going to be a pitiful attempt to get TV ratings.
And in the playoffs this season, you have 8-8 San Diego hosting 12-4 Indianapolis. You have 9-7 Arizona hosting 11-5 Atlanta. 11-5 Miami is hosting 11-5 Baltimore, but the Ravens won the regular season matchup in Miami. You could potentially have four wild card teams win their first round playoff games. The playoff system is what matters, what lends credence to the league and what happens in the regular season, and you won't fix it, but you're willing to tinker with the largely irrelevant Pro Bowl (from a fanbase perspective) and wind up cutting out the most deserving players? I think it's pretty dumb.
I'll never forget seeing Osi Umenyiora get treated like a king in Hawaii last year, as the only representative from his Super Bowl Champion team at the Pro Bowl. It was his time to shine, and he deserved it for a great season and a great Super Bowl. And all indications from other players there were that they all enjoyed the experience. Even Romo and Owens sat down for an interview with NFL Network and the guys made fun of TO for crying at the press conference.
It's not a ratings machine, and it's not ever going to be one, even if it was held in the middle of the season. (By the way, the NFL is the one major league that awards its all stars based on what they've done through the majority of the season, as opposed to just the first half.) It's an opportunity for a bunch of guys to celebrate the end of a good season, for the coaches to wear Hawaiian print shirts and leis on the sidelines, and for none of the players to take the game seriously (except Peyton Manning, football's version of Kobe Bryant) until the fourth quarter.
So now, you have the best players and coaches from the best teams (assumedly) not going to the Pro Bowl because they're getting ready for the Super Bowl, and it just becomes a distracting spectacle, even more watered down than usual. It used to be a nice way to conclude the season; now it's going to be a pitiful attempt to get TV ratings.
And in the playoffs this season, you have 8-8 San Diego hosting 12-4 Indianapolis. You have 9-7 Arizona hosting 11-5 Atlanta. 11-5 Miami is hosting 11-5 Baltimore, but the Ravens won the regular season matchup in Miami. You could potentially have four wild card teams win their first round playoff games. The playoff system is what matters, what lends credence to the league and what happens in the regular season, and you won't fix it, but you're willing to tinker with the largely irrelevant Pro Bowl (from a fanbase perspective) and wind up cutting out the most deserving players? I think it's pretty dumb.
I disagree that the playoffs need fixing. Maybe give a wild card with a better record a home game over a 9-7 division winner, but as crappy as it is to be a fan of an 11-5 team looking out, we didn't win our division and we sucked against other playoff teams. The solution is either to allow more teams so no 11-5 bubble teams are left out, but that means more 9-7 or 8-8 teams too, or to eliminate division play and the rivalries that go with it.
I disagree that the Pro Bowl selection in the NFL is any better than any other sport. Why is Brett Favre starting for the AFC? He was a major factor in the Jets spectacular collapse.
I disagree that the Pro Bowl selection in the NFL is any better than any other sport. Why is Brett Favre starting for the AFC? He was a major factor in the Jets spectacular collapse.
I agree with the League that division winners should get to the playoffs, but if we consistently have 8-8 division winners and 11-5 teams not making the playoffs, then maybe something should be done. I'm against adding teams to the playoffs, and I'm against adding games to the regular season. The only thing that could be done would be to take the top 12 teams, regardless of conference and division, and put them in. This type of season should make the case for that type of change pretty effectively, but even this year, the only change would be that the Pats and Bears/Cowboys are in and the Cardinals and Chargers are out. Last year, the Browns instead of the Redskins. I kind of think that the Chargers and Cards are an anomaly this season, mostly due to the underachievement of their respective divisions.
And regarding Pro Bowl selection, it's always going to be a bit of popularity contest as long as the fans are picking the players (they could let the fans only pick the starters, and have the coaches pick the reserves and alternates, which is something the NBA does right). And you'll still get Kurt Warner being rewarded for a good first half, but you don't get guys who are just locks for the game based on their name and not their performances. Brett Favre had a pretty good first half himself (through November he had 20 touchdowns, 2500 yards, a completion percentage close to 70%, and the Jets were on top in their division), and since he always declines his Pro Bowl spot, that should probably iron itself out with Phillip Rivers getting selected as his replacement.
But, you don't have guys getting voted in like Dwayne Wade and Jason Kidd just because of their name recognition, despite having dreadful years. Baseball isn't quite as bad because of how many games they play, and because of the Home Run Derby, it's pretty exciting even if the game is bad. That is, if you like baseball. On top of that, the game has meaning because the winner gets homefield in the World Series.
Like I said, I'm not saying that the Pro Bowl is perfect, but it's not really for the fans. Pandering to them in order to get more viewers on TV is going to destroy it completely, both for the fans and the players, especially since it's not only anti-clamactic but also cuts out deserving players from the Super Bowl teams. Imagine if Tom Brady and Randy Moss get taken off the Pro Bowl roster after the season they had last year because they're on the way to the Super Bowl. I know neither of them played anyways, but for personal reasons, not because they couldn't according to League rules.
I don't think a major sports league without an all star ceremony makes much sense. But it seems like that's where the NFL is headed, because I don't see this change making much sense from either a football or business standpoint.
And regarding Pro Bowl selection, it's always going to be a bit of popularity contest as long as the fans are picking the players (they could let the fans only pick the starters, and have the coaches pick the reserves and alternates, which is something the NBA does right). And you'll still get Kurt Warner being rewarded for a good first half, but you don't get guys who are just locks for the game based on their name and not their performances. Brett Favre had a pretty good first half himself (through November he had 20 touchdowns, 2500 yards, a completion percentage close to 70%, and the Jets were on top in their division), and since he always declines his Pro Bowl spot, that should probably iron itself out with Phillip Rivers getting selected as his replacement.
But, you don't have guys getting voted in like Dwayne Wade and Jason Kidd just because of their name recognition, despite having dreadful years. Baseball isn't quite as bad because of how many games they play, and because of the Home Run Derby, it's pretty exciting even if the game is bad. That is, if you like baseball. On top of that, the game has meaning because the winner gets homefield in the World Series.
Like I said, I'm not saying that the Pro Bowl is perfect, but it's not really for the fans. Pandering to them in order to get more viewers on TV is going to destroy it completely, both for the fans and the players, especially since it's not only anti-clamactic but also cuts out deserving players from the Super Bowl teams. Imagine if Tom Brady and Randy Moss get taken off the Pro Bowl roster after the season they had last year because they're on the way to the Super Bowl. I know neither of them played anyways, but for personal reasons, not because they couldn't according to League rules.
I don't think a major sports league without an all star ceremony makes much sense. But it seems like that's where the NFL is headed, because I don't see this change making much sense from either a football or business standpoint.
kings4lyfe32
Bench
Yet another terrible idea by Commish Goodell. I'm really starting to dislike the guy and I recall hearing him also state something around the lines that they are working on getting the super bowl played in London.....if that happens, as much as i love football i will never watch the nfl again
Football is such a high risk sport that all star games are a luxury that teams and some players can't afford. The Pats franchise was momentarily devastated when they lost their new franchise RB at the end of his rookie season playing in some rookie game attached to the all star festivities. And unlike say the NHL where you load the all star team up with finnesse guys and tone down the hitting you simply can't do that in the NFL. Players seasons and careers are cut short all the time because of the way one player can fall on another. Brady may not be back next year, Terrell Davis's great career was cut short thanks to someone falling on his knee funny. If this game isn't for the fans and has the potential to devastate a franchise, wouldn't it be better off if the players were just recognized in some kind of tv ceremony during halftime at the Super Bowl and sent on a cruise or given a sweet cash bonus?
As for this year's playoffs - the Chargers have a legit shot at the AFC championship game if not the Superbowl. I'd have a hard time arguing the Pats should be in instead of them since they mopped the floor with us. That is a game that an 11-5 team should have won if they want to claim their record isn't inflated by a poor schedule. The Chargers benefitted from a monumental Denver collapse that just put the icing on the cake of my horrendous football year, but they're a good team that underperformed early and seem to have come together at the right time to make a legit run.
Dallas definitely should be on the outside looking in. Talk about a waste of talent.
The Bears... well they have a better record than the Cardinals, but about an equal shot of advancing past their first game.
As for this year's playoffs - the Chargers have a legit shot at the AFC championship game if not the Superbowl. I'd have a hard time arguing the Pats should be in instead of them since they mopped the floor with us. That is a game that an 11-5 team should have won if they want to claim their record isn't inflated by a poor schedule. The Chargers benefitted from a monumental Denver collapse that just put the icing on the cake of my horrendous football year, but they're a good team that underperformed early and seem to have come together at the right time to make a legit run.
Dallas definitely should be on the outside looking in. Talk about a waste of talent.
The Bears... well they have a better record than the Cardinals, but about an equal shot of advancing past their first game.
I don't really like the guy, but playing the Super Bowl in London is far better than having a team lose a regular season home game over regular season games there.
I don't know why that would be such a terrible thing, as long as it's not every season. I have a problem with the NFL expanding to Europe, but to play the Super Bowl there once every few years wouldn't be a big deal, I don't think.
kings4lyfe32
Bench
My problem with it is its supposed to be "America's Game." American fans are the ones that keep the league up and running and he's going to take the biggest game away from America? it just doesn't seem right to me
They'll still show it on American TV won't they?
You don't think the average fan can afford the SuperBowl more than once in their lifetime (if that) do you? The Super Bowl is big corporate America's game. Besides, anything beats playing it in the same 5 or 6 cities over and over and over. At least there's a chance of real football weather if they play it in London in the winter.
You don't think the average fan can afford the SuperBowl more than once in their lifetime (if that) do you? The Super Bowl is big corporate America's game. Besides, anything beats playing it in the same 5 or 6 cities over and over and over. At least there's a chance of real football weather if they play it in London in the winter.
I hear what you're saying about the risk of injuries, but it's not very often that a player gets seriously hurt at the Pro Bowl, or any other all star game. Not to my knowledge. I immediately remember Brad Miller getting hurt at the '04 All Star game, but that's the exception to the rule. The NFL has rules in place during the Pro Bowl (no blitzing, no motion, no trips receivers, no intentional grounding, etc.) to minimize the risk. Brady's freak injury probably doesn't happen with Pro Bowl rules in place, considering the fact that he was hit by a blitzing safety.
And the thing about it is that the players, for the most part, enjoy the Pro Bowl. They consider it an honor to get recognized and go, and most of them actually make that a goal at the beginning of each season. Their coaches and owners lobby for them to get selected all season long. I think if you polled NFL players, they'd overwhelmingly support keeping the Pro Bowl in place, and would probably want to keep it the way it is right now. These guys can take themselves on a cruise (see: Daunte Culpepper); they can't give themselves the satisfaction of being recognized by fans and coaches for having a good season.
And about the Chargers making the playoffs, they didn't have a terribly difficult schedule themselves. It wasn't as easy as the Pats and the other AFC East teams, but it wasn't an extremely difficult one either. Four of their eight wins were against the Raiders and Chiefs, for crying out loud. The fact that they had to go to London to play the Saints was pretty rough, but their opponents win/loss number is pretty skewed because of the AFC East beating up on the AFC West and NFC West. They certainly are capable of making a deep playoff run, which is evidenced by the way they beat the Patriots, Jets and Broncos for a combined score of 130-60. And I hate that my Colts have to try to win in SD again this season (things don't go well for the Colts against the Chargers, historically), but I think the Patriots are certainly more deserving, if for no other reason than that they overachieved while the Chargers underachieved. The same reason you think the Cowboys are getting what they deserve right now.
I hate this Pro Bowl change even more than I hate the NBA changing the game ball last season.
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Americans keep the league up and running by ordering SuperFan, not by going to the Super Bowl.
I would have a problem if the game was in London every year, but not if it's just once every few years. That's a good way to expand the league into Europe without actually putting a team over there.
But honestly, isn't the reason they want to make the team because they all have lucrative financial incentives for doing so - its the recognition itself, not the actual game. Which is why there are so many no shows. Sure some guys actually want to play in it, others go for the benefit of their families, but like you said, they can afford all the vacations they want. Give 'em their bonuses and be done with it.
I watch 20+ CFB bowl games a year and in general can't get enough football. I say I'm bitter and won't watch but I'll probably be glued to the tv for the NFL playoffs as well. Heck, I even watched every single Sacramento Surge game and many pig bowls. I can't get through 1 quarter of the pro bowl.
I'm not willing to say that players just want to go because they get paid for making it. I think the excitement in being selected is pretty evident when you watch all the interviews and see the players interacting with each other while they're there. The coaches enjoy it, too. And there aren't really that many no-shows when you think about it. You probably didn't pay much attention last year, but the guys who did go enjoyed themselves. They usually do.
That's because it's not real football. I don't watch the NBA All-Star game anymore, because it's not real basketball. The fourth quarter of each is usually pretty entertaining, but like I said, it's not really for the fans. We don't care who wins either one. Baseball fans care who wins the MLB All-Star game, but that's because it affects the World Series.
It's never going to be a big TV ratings draw, and would probably eventually wind up on the NFL Network anyways, if it lasts. But I don't think the players care about that. And if the NFL thinks that's most important, than it will probably get cancelled eventually anyways. I'll be upset about that, too, but it would be better than what they're doing right now. Having it before the Super Bowl is just dumb, if you ask me. Maybe it will get better ratings, but not enough to save it.
uolj
Starter
Pro Bowl the week before the Super Bowl... good idea.
- Keeps the NFL in the news before the Super Bowl and gives the Pro Bowl and the Super Bowl more visibility. Allows Super Bowl to end the season.
Division winners and playoffs... depends.
- Playoff participants and home-field advantage should be based on record. Division win should be #1 tiebreaker.
- Higher seeds can be given to division winners if desired.
- Playoffs should still be completely separate by conference.
More regular season or playoff games... definitely not.
Games outside the U.S... Meh, definitely would prefer the Super Bowl not be, but otherwise I don't care.
- Keeps the NFL in the news before the Super Bowl and gives the Pro Bowl and the Super Bowl more visibility. Allows Super Bowl to end the season.
Division winners and playoffs... depends.
- Playoff participants and home-field advantage should be based on record. Division win should be #1 tiebreaker.
- Higher seeds can be given to division winners if desired.
- Playoffs should still be completely separate by conference.
More regular season or playoff games... definitely not.
Games outside the U.S... Meh, definitely would prefer the Super Bowl not be, but otherwise I don't care.
The Super Bowl is the biggest sporting event of the year. A one week break before the game doesn't hurt the NFL or the game. I don't know what the big advantage is to having the Super Bowl end the season.
I'm glad to find someone who thinks this is a good idea, though. Maybe you can help me understand why or how.
Sounds good. As a matter of fact, I think you could take common opponents for determining who hosts playoff games, rather than record. That's one of the new tiebreakers for the divisional titles in the NFL this year.
Still doesn't fix having an 11-5 team miss the playoffs while an 8-8 team makes it, in a weak division.
uolj
Starter
The biggest advantage is to the Pro Bowl, not the Super Bowl. However, there aren't really any disadvantages to the Super Bowl, either. (At worst it makes no difference, as you argue, and at best it adds even a little more excitement/visibility.)
As is, the Pro Bowl is basically irrelevant to everybody but the players (and even to some of them). Moving it before the Super Bowl is a worthy attempt at making it relevant to fans as well:
- The Super Bowl is the climax of the season. When it is over many of the fans don't care about football any more. That is why it should be the end of the season. *PRO*
- In the two weeks between the conference championships and the Super Bowl, the fans are hungry for NFL news. Almost all of that news is about the Super Bowl teams, and is often barely relevant or pretty dumb. Adding the Pro Bowl in that spot provides something for all NFL fans (especially those of teams not in the SB). It is also something that is arguably more fun and relevant than the normal NFL news at that time. *PRO*
- Players from the Super Bowl teams can't play in the Pro Bowl. *CON*
Did I miss something else?
Playoff participants should be based on record. The only way an 11-5 team misses while an 8-8 team makes it in my ideal system is if they are in different conferences. And I'm ok with that.
I don't understand your pros. They're not really pros to me. Maybe the second one, but I don't really think people are going to watch the Pro Bowl just because they're waiting for the Super Bowl. Pdx won't. Maybe some will.
And I still think there's a difference between declining your Pro Bowl nod and not being able to go because you're getting ready for the Super Bowl. Sure, you'd rather go to the Super Bowl, so that's a problem any player would be glad to have. But it still kind of sucks.
I still don't think the Chargers were more deserving that the Patriots. But I think that you'll have that scenario crop up no matter what.
uolj
Starter
I think a lot of people will. And it is certainly worth it to see whether that's the case. I'd estimate at least a doubling of the ratings if they try it for two years.
Besides, I think the point is to make it relevant for the fans. If you can increase fan interest much at all then that is more important than a few players missing the Pro Bowl (who get to play in the Super Bowl anyway).
I won't ever watch it because I'm usually busy the last weekend in January, but I know a lot of NFL fans are itching for something to watch and talk about during the extra week. Moving the Pro Bowl there could be a win for the fans and a win (money wise) for the NFL. Given that the Pro Bowl is in pretty bad shape right now anyway I don't see what there is to lose.
You seem to be missing my point. In my proposed scenario, the Patriots would make the playoffs and the Chargers would not.