Poll: Game 3 Suspensions

[vikinginferno]

One question, does Kobe getting a flagrant 1 after the league reviews the game even do anything?

 

[uolj]

One question, does Kobe getting a flagrant 1 after the league reviews the game even do anything?

He gets a point and after a certain number of flagrant foul points you get suspended. Honestly, though, I don't expect him to come close to that. I think it resets after the playoffs.

And I honestly don't expect him to do much more of the dirty stuff this series like he did to Battier and Artest. Partly because everybody's aware of it, but I also wouldn't be surprised if Artest's response intimidates him and makes him think twice about doing anything like that for the rest of the series.

And that, dear uolj, is what irritates a lot of people. He has, over the years, consistently gotten away with things where other mere mortals wouldn't have been so lucky. After a while, enough is enough...

I understand that people think that... but it doesn't make it true. I'm fine with people getting frustrated, that's part of being a fan of the game... but that doesn't make it true.

 

[TheWileyVet]

He gets a point and after a certain number of flagrant foul points you get suspended. Honestly, though, I don't expect him to come close to that. I think it resets after the playoffs.

And I honestly don't expect him to do much more of the dirty stuff this series like he did to Battier and Artest. Partly because everybody's aware of it, but I also wouldn't be surprised if Artest's response intimidates him and makes him think twice about doing anything like that for the rest of the series.

Agreed, Kobe is a puss and a dirty player/poor sport. I bet he still has nightmares about Chris Childs.

 

[vikinginferno]

Also, did Kobe get any flagrant or anything for his elbow and knee to Battier? That was worse in my opinion than what he did to Artest. Had he done that same thing to Artest that he did to Battier, I don't know if he would even be able to play the rest of the playoffs. Also Avery Johnson brought up something I thought was pretty funny, is Derek Fisher their enforcer!?

 

[Oprostaj]

Fisher is a tough guy. Avery was trying to crack a joke but he was dead on. Small in stature does not mean small in testicular fortitude.

 

[kingsnation]

"In this case had he made contact in his head area, certainly we'd be evaluating it on a different level," said Stu Jackson, NBA vice president of basketball operations. "The elbow was delivered as part of [a] rebounding play under the basket. It made contact to the chest area, and upon that review we deemed it to be a flagrant 1. It's clear in our rules that we treat elbow contact above the shoulder area differently than we do for other parts of the body."

This is what I don't get. OK. Fine - his elbow happened to hit Ron in the shoulder. But does no one in the NBA give a crap about intention anymore?

Kobe's intention was to elbow Ron. The only thing that kept his elbow in the shoulder area was Ron's own positioning.

Artest was ejected for arguing for getting in Bryant's face and refusing to stop jawing at Bryant, a judgment call by referee Joey Crawford that Jackson deemed proper.

No foul was called on Bryant on the play

See, I think this is what pushes alot of people over the edge. It is this kind of inconsistency that causes this drama in the first place. I guarantee if the foul is called right there at that moment, Ron would not have done all he did.

The refs seem to pick and choose sometimes what they see and don't see. And believe me, I'm not trying to go Game 6 with this. I'm simply saying, Ron was more pissed off because the foul was ignored more than anything else.

"It's not cut-and-dried, because certainly there have been players hit in the head with elbows, and we haven't suspended those players because it was inadvertent or part of a basketball play that in some cases was unavoidable," Jackson said.

If they apply this "Cut and dried" rule to this play, it is obvious they are ignoring the simple fact that he DID throw in elbow intentionally without any possible way of knowing where his elbow would land.

 

[TheWileyVet]

This is what I don't get. OK. Fine - his elbow happened to hit Ron in the shoulder. But does no one in the NBA give a crap about intention anymore?

Kobe's intention was to elbow Ron. The only thing that kept his elbow in the shoulder area was Ron's own positioning.



See, I think this is what pushes alot of people over the edge. It is this kind of inconsistency that causes this drama in the first place. I guarantee if the foul is called right there at that moment, Ron would not have done all he did.

The refs seem to pick and choose sometimes what they see and don't see. And believe me, I'm not trying to go Game 6 with this. I'm simply saying, Ron was more pissed off because the foul was ignored more than anything else.



If they apply this "Cut and dried" rule to this play, it is obvious they are ignoring the simple fact that he DID throw in elbow intentionally without any possible way of knowing where his elbow would land.

Summed up: the NBA cheats

 

[Superman]

See, I think this is what pushes alot of people over the edge. It is this kind of inconsistency that causes this drama in the first place. I guarantee if the foul is called right there at that moment, Ron would not have done all he did.

To me, it's unacceptable to defend Artest's ejection. But I didn't expect anything different. It's just like with the Rondo flagrant: the NBA couldn't come out and undermine their officials, because it would mean admitting that the refs cost the Bulls the game. Same thing here. If Stu Jackson says "you know what, Joey was a bit quick with the ejection, and part of that is because it was Ron Artest, and maybe he should have done more to diffuse the situation rather than escalating it, and we'll talk with Joey about that", he's admitting that Crawford made a mistake that drastically impacted the outcome of the game.

What's so ridiculous about that everyone who's watched the NBA in the last ten years knows that Joey Crawford has a quick fuse, and everyone who saw him on the crew Wednesday night knew that the officiating would wind up being an issue in that game. The guy was suspended from the NBA for over a year because of this very same thing. Yet, the NBA's objective is to sweep it all under the rug.

They hired this military guy to come in and help clean up the officiating after the Donaghy scandal, and that's supposed to make it okay that the same ol' refs are doing the same ol' thing. This is a joke. And whatever credibility Stu Jackson and David Stern have is quickly shriveling like a grape in the July sun.

 

[Oprostaj]

To me, it's unacceptable to defend Artest's ejection. But I didn't expect anything different. It's just like with the Rondo flagrant: the NBA couldn't come out and undermine their officials, because it would mean admitting that the refs cost the Bulls the game. Same thing here. If Stu Jackson says "you know what, Joey was a bit quick with the ejection, and part of that is because it was Ron Artest, and maybe he should have done more to diffuse the situation rather than escalating it, and we'll talk with Joey about that", he's admitting that Crawford made a mistake that drastically impacted the outcome of the game.

What's so ridiculous about that everyone who's watched the NBA in the last ten years knows that Joey Crawford has a quick fuse, and everyone who saw him on the crew Wednesday night knew that the officiating would wind up being an issue in that game. The guy was suspended from the NBA for over a year because of this very same thing. Yet, the NBA's objective is to sweep it all under the rug.

They hired this military guy to come in and help clean up the officiating after the Donaghy scandal, and that's supposed to make it okay that the same ol' refs are doing the same ol' thing. This is a joke. And whatever credibility Stu Jackson and David Stern have is quickly shriveling like a grape in the July sun.

They don't have to undermine the officials, but they have to fix them. The NFL admitted that Hochuli basically cost the Denver/Chargers game. They changed the rule and move on. What worries me is that all this "talk" but no action. Refs should NEVER, EVER decide a game. Why did the refs not go to the replay... maybe see again something they missed. If Rondo can take Miller's head off and not get ejected, no reason Artest should be for complaining. He did go after Kobe, but did not shove him, push him. Now you're telling me the NBA is going to eject people for being tough and standing up for what they belive in? This is not the old Artest, and it's a damn shame he's being treated as such.

You have a hot tempered referee that has been known to have a me first attitude and who cares more about controlling the game rather than officiating it. You've suspended him. You're telling me there are no better alternatives out there? I don't care if it's his 5th, 10th, or 50th year in the leauge. If he sucks, he sucks. Stern or Stu have no balls, and no control. The problem is that nobody else wants to outright call them on it. If all players and coaches decided to say something, I guarantee it would change.

 

[Superman]

They don't have to undermine the officials, but they have to fix them. The NFL admitted that Hochuli basically cost the Denver/Chargers game. They changed the rule and move on. What worries me is that all this "talk" but no action. Refs should NEVER, EVER decide a game. Why did the refs not go to the replay... maybe see again something they missed. If Rondo can take Miller's head off and not get ejected, no reason Artest should be for complaining. He did go after Kobe, but did not shove him, push him. Now you're telling me the NBA is going to eject people for being tough and standing up for what they belive in? This is not the old Artest, and it's a damn shame he's being treated as such.

That's part of the reason that the NFL is superior to the NBA. But in fairness, basketball is much more subjective than football.

You have a hot tempered referee that has been known to have a me first attitude and who cares more about controlling the game rather than officiating it. You've suspended him. You're telling me there are no better alternatives out there? I don't care if it's his 5th, 10th, or 50th year in the leauge. If he sucks, he sucks. Stern or Stu have no balls, and no control. The problem is that nobody else wants to outright call them on it. If all players and coaches decided to say something, I guarantee it would change.

With regard to Joey Crawford, I don't think I'd say that he sucks. I don't like his officiating, but the league grades their refs and stands by their assertion that Crawford's calls always grade high. I don't chronicle all of the guy's bad calls, but the subjective nature of basketball means that all refs are going to make some questionable calls. That's fine, and if the league grades their refs calls and he gets high grades, that's great.

My problem with Joey Crawford is his attitude. The guy needs his own talk show, like Jerry Springer or something, because he likes being the center of attention. It would seem like the NBA would be able to function without such a guy. I really don't know why they reinstated him in the first place.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That's part of the reason that the NFL is superior to the NBA...

I ought to wash your mouth out with soap.

 

[TheFifthMookie]

I frequently turn off NBA games now when I detect bias in the officiating. There are just some games that the calls go lopsided, and the team getting the calls pulls away with a lead, and that's not what I want to watch, so I turn it off and go do something else.

I really believe that NBA officiating management needs to be looked at and reorganized, I do not believe that their current oversight process is adequate.

 

[Superman]

I ought to wash your mouth out with soap.

I know you don't like football, but it's true. Especially when it comes to officiating.

The example that was given earlier about Ed Hochuli is a prime example. The guy made a terrible call that essentially cost one team the game, and instead of saying "the call was good, he was right, get over it", the NFL came out and said very explicitly that he messed up. He even came out and said how sorry he was that he messed up, and took the heat for it.

Have we heard anything from the NBA or any ref about a bad call or no-call that affected the outcome of the game? Anything? All we ever hear from the NBA League Office is an unwavering defense of their referees, even when they're obviously in the wrong. Like the Rondo flagrant. They made up a way to justify a bad call, rather than just saying, "you're right, we blew that one, sorry, we'll get better".

The NFL makes public their reviews of conspicuously poor calls. Mike Pereira, VP of Officiating, goes on NFL Network every week and explains why certain calls were made, and is upfront about why a call is right or wrong. So when his office vehemently defends a questionable call, they have a measure of credibility that Stu Jackson and David Stern don't, because they don't shield their officials from criticism. They embrace it because it makes them better.

The NFL has even taken steps in the last few years to minimize the amount of subjective calls that are made over the course of a game. Last season, they got rid of a rule that called on the officials to judge whether a player would have landed with two feet in bounds had he not been pushed, and just went black and white: if he doesn't land in bounds, it's not a catch, whether he was pushed or not. They got rid of a distinction between a major and a minor face mask foul, and now they're all major, and the penalty is 15 yards and a first down. They don't want the refs judging the severity of an infraction, they just want them calling the infraction when it happens.

However, like I said earlier, basketball is, by nature, more subjective than football is. You can't get rid of that element. However, the NBA does itself and its officials a disservice when they pretend that they're never wrong. It's insulting to fans and players alike, and it would earn the NBA credibility if they would admit it when they make a mistake.

 

[kingsnation]

I know you don't like football, but it's true. Especially when it comes to officiating.

Agreed. NFL refs and NHL refs are in a different league compared to the NBA's.

 

[Oprostaj]

I don't understand why they refuse to acknowledge it though. The fans see it, and all we want is better officiating. Admit the mistake, replace the refs, or adjust the system and that's it. The world won't end if the leauge admits that games are much more controlled by the refs now. Just fix the damn thing.