Perception

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Garliguy

Guest
#1
Compare these two players' career stats:

Player A:

14.8 ppg, 6.4 rb, 9.4 asst, 2.1 steals, 3.4 turnovers, 40% FG, 78% FT



Player B:

13.9 ppg, 6.0 rb, 6.2 asst, 2.2 steals, 2.0 turnovers, 45% FG, 77% FT



Who is better? Doesn't it appear that their statistics are fairly similar? Player A scores a little bit more per game, and he averages over 3 assists per game more. Player B, however, averages 1.5 less turnovers per game, and is a more efficient shooter. All their other stats are virtually identical.

Player A is a sure fire Hall of Famer. The only way Player B will enter the Hall of Fame is if he buys a ticket. Doesn't that seem a little ridiculous?

The reason that is the case, in my opinion, is because Player A plays during an era when it is important to "do everything." No longer is it sufficient to dominate in one or two areas -- a true superstar must be a man of all trades. It's idiotic, and it's something the media helped create in the early 1990's.

Back when Oscar Robertson averaged a triple-double for a season, no one even knew what a triple-double was. It wasn't until well into Magic Johnson's career that the term became popular. Then the feat reached a level of importance that was a little ridiculous. What do you think is more impressive: scoring 29 points, pulling down 18 rebounds, and only missing 5 shots, or scoring 11 points, pulling down 10 rebounds, dishing out 10 assists, and missing 10 shots? Up until recently, it was the former. Now it appears to be the latter. It seems that the media and fans will ignore the missed shots and the turnovers, just as long as the player puts up the mystical triple-double.

And unfortunately, some athletes have bought into this nonsense. Charles Barkley, Chris Webber, Derrick Coleman, and Antoine Walker, to name a few, are athletes who seem to feel compelled to try and do everything, even if they would be much more effective just doing the things they do well and forgetting about the 3 point shots and the tricky passes.

That is why Player A, in my opinion, is one of the most overrated players in the NBA. People are enthralled with his ability to "do it all," even though he does some things very poorly (like shooting and turning the ball over). Back when Player B was playing and putting up virtually the same stats, no one cared all that much.

They are/were both good players, but Player A does not belong anywhere near the Hall of Fame. He was just lucky enough to play in an era when people cared about players who could "do it all."


BTW, Player A is Jason Kidd. Player B is Fat Lever.
 
#2
Garliguy, we don't always agree on a lot, but you know I'm 100% with you on Kidd. He's considered a top point guard historically by so many people, when he's not even the best point guard in the league now.
 
M

Mike B

Guest
#3
Garliguy,

Absolutely correct.



Kidd doesn't belong anywhere near the Hall of Fame.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#4
There is a reason why Kidd gets so many kudos, in the modern era he is basically the ONLY one who is putting up 9+ assists. If not the last pure PG, at least the last pass-first PG. Back when Fat Lever played Magic was averaging 12apg and you had half a dozen guys averaging as many as Kidd. part of that was mentality, but also part of that was the apce of the game. A LOT more scoring in that era. Hence more assists to be had (bit of a chicken and the egg there).

In any case, Kidd gets a lot of credit because he stands out. Fat was a nice player, but he simply did not. Just another good PG (actually combo guard) during his era. Not even sure if he made the All-Star team, although he may well have once or twice.

its kind of like the difference between dennis Rodman grabbing 18rebounds in the 90's vs. a guy grabbing 18rebs in 1968. In the earlier era, it was much more common.
 
#6
Let's take this a little further...

Player A Career Stats

25ppg, 10.1 Rb, 3.6asst, 1.41 Stl, 3.07TO, 51.6% FG, 74.2% FT

Player B Career Stats

22ppg, 10.2 Reb, 4.4 Asst, 1.51 Stl, 2.96 TO, 49.1% FG, 62.8% FT

Neither of these players has ever won an NBA championship.

Player A is a slightly better scorer, shooter, and free throw line shooter. Player B is a slightly better rebounder, passer, and commits slightly less TO per game. The disparity between points and assists is pretty much a wash. All the other stats are strikingly similar aside from FT%. Overall, these two players statistically are about the same.

Player A is regarded as one of the best 50 players of all time and will be a unanimous Hall of Fame selection. Player B is considered by many overrated and not even the best player on his team.




Player A is Karl Malone

Player B is....



Chris Webber
 
#8
Last time Stock got 10+apg was 1996-97.

Kidd is pretty much the best PG since 1999.

Kidd is one of the best passers in the game, basically the best rebounding PG, a very good leader who makes his teamattes better. He also has played great defense for much of his career. What is there not to like about Kidd as a player aside from his scoring inefficiencies (which he makes up for by making other players around him more efficient, while basically doing everything else WAY above average compared to most PGs.)?
 
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#9
And unfortunately, some athletes have bought into this nonsense. Charles Barkley, Chris Webber, Derrick Coleman, and Antoine Walker, to name a few, are athletes who seem to feel compelled to try and do everything, even if they would be much more effective just doing the things they do well and forgetting about the 3 point shots and the tricky passes.
How do you lump Antoine Walker and Derrick Coleman with Webber and Barkley?

Granted Coleman was solid and had potential for 2-3 years, but to put him in the same class as Webb or Barkley is a bit questionable.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#10
Garliguy said:
Um, John Stockton?
Was already old by the time Kidd hit his prime. Obviously an All-Time great, but who else? Kidd's averaged over 9 assists 9 times in 10 years, and is one of only 4 guys to leas the league in assists for 3 or more years in a row. After Stockton (who last averaged over 9 back in 97-98), there have been only a handful of other players who've gotten over 9 even one year in that span.
 
#11
stats don't always tell the whole story. but i agree they say a lot but still it depends on how u look & take'em. life ain't fair in most instances. Just ask Dennis Rodman.
 
#12
I don't think we can consider a point guard who averages 9.4 assists "about equal" to one that's only putting up 6.2. That's a large difference for a point guard.
 
#13
C Diddy said:
Let's take this a little further...

Player A Career Stats

25ppg, 10.1 Rb, 3.6asst, 1.41 Stl, 3.07TO, 51.6% FG, 74.2% FT

Player B Career Stats

22ppg, 10.2 Reb, 4.4 Asst, 1.51 Stl, 2.96 TO, 49.1% FG, 62.8% FT

Neither of these players has ever won an NBA championship.

Player A is a slightly better scorer, shooter, and free throw line shooter. Player B is a slightly better rebounder, passer, and commits slightly less TO per game. The disparity between points and assists is pretty much a wash. All the other stats are strikingly similar aside from FT%. Overall, these two players statistically are about the same.

Player A is regarded as one of the best 50 players of all time and will be a unanimous Hall of Fame selection. Player B is considered by many overrated and not even the best player on his team.

Player A is Karl Malone

Player B is....

Chris Webber
Bad comparison. Player A did that over the course of 8 more seasons than Player B. Player A had 2 MVP Awards and 3 Finals appearances to Player B's zero.
 
#15
Gargamel said:
Bad comparison. Player A did that over the course of 8 more seasons than Player B. Player A had 2 MVP Awards and 3 Finals appearances to Player B's zero.
About time someone responded to my point. You are exactly right. It is a bad comparison. But why? Are you saying that there are intangibles that aren't shown from a statistical standpoint that defines the quality of a player?


Thought so.

The point I was making in my original post was that numbers aren't everything. I haven't had the honor of seeing a certain Fat Lever play the sport of basketball but I can tell you Jason Kidd is not overrated at all. His presence on the court alone makes his entire team better. Look at the New Jersey Nets the year before Kidd was traded there. They were bottom feeders, struggling for 30 wins a season in a conference that had begun a steep decline ever since Jordan retired the first time. Remove Stephon Marbury, who many still say is a top 3 PG, and insert Jason Kidd, and suddenly the New Jersey Nets are the EC Champions. No major moves were done in the offseason with the exception of adding Jason Kidd and the team improved. He can't shoot worth a lick but he sees the floor better then anyone, besides Stockton, that I've had the liberty to watch since I became a serious basketball fan at 12-13 years old. Im only 23 now, that tells my history right there. The perception and the hype the media gives to Jason Kidd is not unwarranted. The Malone-Webber comparison was the perfect example of how two statistically about even players can be so far apart in talent.
 
#16
C Diddy said:
About time someone responded to my point. You are exactly right. It is a bad comparison. But why? Are you saying that there are intangibles that aren't shown from a statistical standpoint that defines the quality of a player?

Thought so.
I actually think I was trippin. I thought you were really trying to put them on the same level.
 
#17
As for the Webb/Malone stat comparison, enough of the averages... what about total career numbers? Malone blows Webber away there, and although he is older and farther along in his career, Webb won't touch Malone in areas like career scoring.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#18
LPKingsFan said:
As for the Webb/Malone stat comparison, enough of the averages... what about total career numbers? Malone blows Webber away there, and although he is older and farther along in his career, Webb won't touch Malone in areas like career scoring.
Not to take anything away from Malone I ofthe wonder how his career would have been had he not played with perhaps the smartest PG's to ever play?
 
#19
HndsmCelt said:
Not to take anything away from Malone I ofthe wonder how his career would have been had he not played with perhaps the smartest PG's to ever play?
Stockton made Malone and vice versa, but those two still would've been all-time greats without each other. If Sacramento had drafted Malone in 1985, I don't think he would've been that diminished surrounded by the likes of Drew, K. Smith, Webb, Rauf, Edney, A. Johnson, J. Williams, Bibby... He would've made their lives and the Kings a lot better. The guy at 40 was the type of power forward that the Lakers hadn't had in many years. Likewise, Stockton would've improved the games of his teammates no matter who drafted him.
 
G

Garliguy

Guest
#20
[Stockton was] already old by the time Kidd hit his prime.
I see. So when you were talking about "modern era" in your first post, you were defining the "modern era" as beginning when Kidd hit his prime in the mid-1990's?


[Kidd's] presence on the court alone makes his entire team better.
Really? When Kidd played for Dallas, his teams went 36-46, 26-56, and 24-58 (he was traded mid-way through his last season), and his first year in Phoenix the Suns went 40-42.

They were bottom feeders, struggling for 30 wins a season in a conference that had begun a steep decline ever since Jordan retired the first time. Remove Stephon Marbury, who many still say is a top 3 PG, and insert Jason Kidd, and suddenly the New Jersey Nets are the EC Champions. No major moves were done in the offseason with the exception of adding Jason Kidd and the team improved.
Not true. In 2002 (the year the Nets added Kidd) the Nets also added Richard Jefferson and Kerry Kittles. Additionally, in 2001 (the year before Kidd) Keith Van Horn played 49 games, and the next year he played in 81. Kidd was just fortunate enough to arrive when Jefferson and Kittles arrived and when Van Horn got healthy.
 
#21
Garliguy said:
Not true. In 2002 (the year the Nets added Kidd) the Nets also added Richard Jefferson and Kerry Kittles. Additionally, in 2001 (the year before Kidd) Keith Van Horn played 49 games, and the next year he played in 81. Kidd was just fortunate enough to arrive when Jefferson and Kittles arrived and when Van Horn got healthy.
The Nets have had Kittles since he was a rookie 98-99 or so. and Richard Jefferson was a rookie the year Kidd got there. The 01-02 season. Jefferson did not start and wasnt anything spectacular. 9 ppg or so and rookie 2nd team doesnt take anything away from what Kidd did for that franchise. Todd Macculough had the best season of his career that first year Jason Kidd got there. Kenyon Martin played better the year Kidd got there. Lucious Harris had a great season that year, shooting a career high FG%. The team was noticeably and considerably better with Jason Kidd. Plus, I'm not even accounting for the fact the Jamie Feick missed the whole season for the 2nd year in a row, another blow which should of crippled the Nets but didnt.

In todays NBA, Jason Kidd is a phenomenal PG, worthy of the praise he has been given.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#22
I see you've lumped several people's posts together there, so I'll just respond to the "in his prime" comment that was mine. The point is this -- Jason Kidd gets so much attention because he is the ONLY one doing what he does today, and has been for most of his career. If he put up the same numbers in 1984, nobody would have blinked.

But given how slow paced and slugfesty the league has become while Kidd has been playing, it is not unreasonable to assume that Kidd's numbers would have risen correspondingly if he played in the 80's. Risen to Hall of Fame numbers by the standards then? Hard to tell. I consider him a borderline case today myself. But if you average 9.5 assists at a time when most teams are happy if their guy gets 6 or 7, you stand out just as much as a guy averaging 12 a game when a good PG was averaging 8 or 9.
 
#23
Stats are way overrated.

There is no stat that shows the pass that lead to a pass to a basket, or the pass that lead to the assist.

There is no stat that shows someone blocking out the other teams best rebounder so that the ball is rebounded by a 5'11" guard after a bounce

There is no stat that shows pressure on the ball that lead to an errant pass which was picked up by a teammate that gave the teammate the steal

There is no stat that shows the double team on one player that made the teammate open for a shot

There is no stat that shows the player being in the right position every time down the floor and setting proper screens and running the play as the coach designed it

There is no stat that shows the elbow to the face that stopped the other team from driving the lane :)
 
#24
C Diddy said:
Kenyon Martin played better the year Kidd got there.
Kenyon Martin was coming off a broken leg his first year in the league. He would have played better with me at PG his second year. Kidd helped, but he also benefited from great timing.
 
#25
JSin said:
Kenyon Martin was coming off a broken leg his first year in the league. He would have played better with me at PG his second year. Kidd helped, but he also benefited from great timing.
I don't think his broken leg was much of a factor his rookie year. He still managed to start and play 68 games of the season. He only started 5 more games the following year and virtually every stat was better with the exception of rebounding, which you would think would have gone up if the broken leg hindered him that much the rookie season.
 
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Garliguy

Guest
#26
The team was noticeably and considerably better with Jason Kidd.
I think it would be more accurate to say "The team was noticeably and considerably better and Jason Kidd was one of the several reasons."

Plus, I'm not even accounting for the fact the Jamie Feick missed the whole season for the 2nd year in a row, another blow which should of crippled the Nets but didnt.
Is that a joke?
 
#27
C Diddy said:
The Malone-Webber comparison was the perfect example of how two statistically about even players can be so far apart in talent.
Define "talent". If talent is about ball playing skills, then these stats say that Webb is about equal to Malone talent-wise, which is not a bad assessment.

I mean, put all biases and bad-mindedness aside; Webb is a player more than capable of approaching Hall of Fame level. Malone has 8 seasons more than Webb and 19(?) seasons total, and hasn't lost as much time to injuries as CWebb has, yet their stats are so similar. That speaks a lot about Webb's ability and potential to me.
 
G

Garliguy

Guest
#28
Webber does have impressive averages and once was a very good player. When he was named First Team All NBA in 2001, he deserved it. But his numbers are declining, especially his shooting percentages.

Additionally, do you know how many times Malone played at least 80 games in a season. 17 times. Do you know how many times Chris Webber has played 80 games in a season. ZERO times.

Lastly, Malone compiled his averages over 54,000 minutes. Webber compiled his in over 23,000 minutes.

Karl Malone is a sure fire Hall of Famer and is the greatest power forward of all time, bar none. Webber has no shot at the Hall of Fame, unless his knee suddenly becomes bionic and he gets a brain transplant.
 
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#29
Garliguy said:
I think it would be more accurate to say "The team was noticeably and considerably better and Jason Kidd was one of the several reasons."


Is that a joke?
As for the first part, I tend to believe that Kidd was/is the catalyst to the Nets success.

As for the Jamie Feick reference, I think I used crippled innapropriately. The Nets did give Feick a rather large contract due to his inside presence, toughness, and rebounding ability the year before his career ending injury. A guy like that is always useful to a team.
 
G

Garliguy

Guest
#30
That's fair. And you are correct about his rebounding ability. In the one year that he got minutes, he pulled down over 10 a game.