Newsmedia: quality of NBA play is down

[CruzDude]

The Euros notwithstanding, I hear on a regular basis from a variety of TV and ESPN types that the quality of NBA play has gone down in recent years. Sure there are the new all around stars like Lebron and Okafor and Wade. But I agree. I think the quality of play from the new players in the last 6-8 years has dropped.

My own view on this is simple: it's the ESPN SportsCenter highlights or top ten during the NBA season. It seems 90% of those are slam dunks, wild twisting-turning prayer shots or 3-pointers. Sure they may sell to the yell and hollar 18-34 crowd but those are not good basketball. But it is what we see night after night.

If the youth in high school turn on the evening sports and the only plays emphasized is slam dunks and spectacular layups, then thats what they are going out to practice. To "show off" to their buddies. Not to learn how to better play a team sport but rather to come up with "show off" shots.

My favorite "spectacular" scores in an NBA game? A few years ago when the Kings were the new "showtime" team I remember a defensive rebound and a fast break basket in which the ball went the entire length of the court and never once touched the court in a dribble. A 4-player pass-pass-pass-layup that seemed to take only 2 seconds. Or Spurs passing the ball to touch all 5 players then suddenly Manu seeing a crack in the defense, getting the ball and zig zagging thru the other team for what seemed an easy layup. Or a backdoor layup to a King slashing along the baseline. Those are fun exciting basketball. And it takes the team to tango.

Slam dunks? Nah! So what? everyone can do those now. Give us a SportsCenter season of really good exciting plays involving a number of players and I'll bet the level of basketball improves.

 

[arwen undomiel]

If the youth in high school turn on the evening sports and the only plays emphasized is slam dunks and spectacular layups, then thats what they are going out to practice. To "show off" to their buddies. Not to learn how to better play a team sport but rather to come up with "show off" shots.

I can't agree more. I've never been a fan of the dunk - sure, it's exciting, and the NBA is all for that, but IMHO it' s cost a lot in terms of basic fundamentals. The arts of passing and defense have suffered, as well as the concept of team play. It's sad, but it's the state of the NBA these days.

 

[jacobdrj]

I can't agree more. I've never been a fan of the dunk - sure, it's exciting, and the NBA is all for that, but IMHO it' s cost a lot in terms of basic fundamentals. The arts of passing and defense have suffered, as well as the concept of team play. It's sad, but it's the state of the NBA these days.

I equate the Dunk to Special FX. If you overuse them, or if they are accompanied by a bad movie, they arn't special enough to have you keep watching.

I never understood the dunking thing. I have only seen a couple dunks that actualy wowed me. In the mondern NBA, even most PGs can dunk. It isn't even a big deal. In fact, I wish people would dunk more, if only to make more high percentage shots, but the flash can be done away with. The most sectacualr dunks I can remember are only the desperate ones, like that Horry one from game 5, or dunking over Shaq. Other than that, a dunk is just another play.
I find blocks and passes far more interesting, and my favorate player of all time Reggie Miller was my favorate because of his efficiant and CLUTCH 3 point shooting.

 

[hoopsfan]

The Sportscenter nightly highlights have been a downfall as players strive to make the flashiest dunk to be in the Top 10.

I agree with the previous posters too.

 

[AriesMar27]

i think its the fact that the wrong people are dunking..... if you saw someone like brad dunk on shaq it would easily be the top pick and not because of flash but because he isnt known for it....

if people saw more complete players dunking then it would be okay.... to see peja dunk on someone would be the first sign of the apocalypse.....

but i agree with what most of you said.... i dont want to see amare dunking all the damn time....

 

[6th]

but i agree with what most of you said.... i dont want to see amare dunking all the damn time....

Agreed. It seems that is all he can do. Big deal. And, as has been stated before, the kids watch this and spend all their time trying to create flashy dunks. They first need to learn how to play the game of basketball.

 

[thesanityannex]

I'm sorry but I guess I'm in the minority here. I don't see how anyone can be bashing on dunking. It has become a part of the game, just like the three point shot. Both were never intended when the game was invented, but have become an integral part of the basketball. These guys are taller and more athletic than in years past, why wouldn't they dunk? It is the most effecient shot in the game, and the crowd loves it. Well, not this crowd apparently. I really don't see the "flashy" dunks anymore, like what Jordan would do (during a game, not a dunk contest). Did anyone complain when Jordan was dunking during games? NO. So why now? When is the last time you saw a 360 dunk during the game? Or a between the legs dunk during the game? Sure Amare dunks a lot, but his dunks are power dunks, not flashy dunks.

And to the comment on the kids learning flashy dunks and not the game of basketball. First, these kids are small, dunking is not possible,(unless its on a lowered hoop, and I remember how fun it was to have dunk contests with my gradeschool buddies) second, they know they must learn to shoot, dribble, and pass first, if they ever want to succeed in the game. (most kids won't be tall enough to dunk anyways and will realize they need to specialize in shooting or dribbling or passing)

 

[SacTownKid]

Don't forget. Those little rules that the NBA changed from then to now, alter the game in a big way. Stern wants the games to be fast paced and high scoring, where the score is 150-147. Some of the rules now are in place to aid this. The game won't be like it was back in the day. Those guys would literally beat the crap out of eachother, now, if you pass gas in someone elses direction its a flagrant 2.

 

[VF21]

James Naismith wanted a TEAM game, with exquisite passes, etc. That's why he created the rule about not being able to carry the ball without dribbling. He wanted players to interact. I don't think he ever envisioned a time when players would be tall enough to "dunk" the ball into the basket. That's why he made it higher off the ground than the players could reach - to encourage the jump shots, banks, etc.

Dunks aren't about team. They're prima dona showboating, IMHO...

they know they must learn to shoot, dribble, and pass first, if they ever want to succeed in the game...

Some of them aren't learning the lesson very well.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Alright then... just for the sake of argument, though, what makes a jump shot or a bank shot inherently more "team oriented" than a dunk shot?

 

[VF21]

My comment was probably confusing. My POINT was that a dunk is so singular, so isolated on one player, etc. that it just flies in the face of the whole team concept IMHO. Of course the basket itself is going to be accomplished by ONE player - the one whose hands are last to touch the ball.

I'm not a fan of showtime dunks, especially at the expense of good team dynamics like we've come to expect the last few years.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

What about alley oops?

 

[AriesMar27]

What about alley oops?

ive seen some pretty cool alley oop lay-ups.... they dont have to be dunks.....

and a jump shot or bank shot is team oriented when players make passes and find open men..... something that the kings do alot..... with players moving without the ball and the passers making the appropriate passes.....

remember all of those great bullet passes from doug to peja? webber and vlade's amazing passes to players slashing and coming off of screens.... those were team oriented jump shots and lay-ups.... kobe dunking on someone after having the ball for more than half the shot clock is not team oriented.....

 

[VF21]

ive seen some pretty cool alley oop lay-ups.... they dont have to be dunks.....

and a jump shot or bank shot is team oriented when players make passes and find open men..... something that the kings do alot..... with players moving without the ball and the passers making the appropriate passes.....

remember all of those great bullet passes from doug to peja? webber and vlade's amazing passes to players slashing and coming off of screens.... those were team oriented jump shots and lay-ups.... kobe dunking on someone after having the ball for more than half the shot clock is not team oriented.....

Exactly.

 

[Nikos]

I don't really agree that the play has gone down per se. The style of NBA ball has changed. Coaching has become more defensive focused as opposed to offense, but each era had its own good and bad offensive and defensive teams. It just so happens that the last 15 years the great defensive teams have emerged: Pistons 80s, Knicks 90s, Spurs+Pistons 00s. I do think the Sportscenter has created more of an importance and emphasis on the highlight reel and amazing one on one moves. Sure the league has become more one-on-one oriented than years past, but there still are several teams that have pretty good ball movement and fluid offenses AKA Kings of 00's, Spurs the last 2-3 seasons, Suns 05, Sonics 05, Heat, Mavs of the last 5 years etc....

Even teams back in the older days relied on a few scorers who needed 1 on 1 ability to get off shots and create open looks for their teamattes.

But the biggest difference is ultimately PACE. Teams are more focused and energy driven on defense, and franchises are designing teams with defense and athleticism in mind (even if the player is subpar skillwise).

Ultimately it is just a preference. Sometimes I can't even watch high paced NBA games in the late 70s/80s even though teams are scoring. A lot of scoring doesn't neccesarily mean great basketball IMO (although many may disagree).

I like teams that can play half-court, full-court and pass pretty well without having only one dominant scorer. I like teams that have excellent team defense. Sure low scoring games aren't always fun. But high scoring games aren't fun by default either if there isn't a vested interest in the team or if it is not an important basketball game (aka playoffs or great regular season matchup).

I don't know, I like the game today -- and I also like the game in the 80s as well. I guess it just depends on the teams, matchups, players etc.... Most basketball is fun for me to watch even if sometimes players can force things one on one.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

...and a jump shot or bank shot is team oriented when players make passes and find open men.....

Big deal; so are dunks, when they come off of set plays. You talk about the passes by Christie to Stojakovic for layups? Well, what about the passes that Christie used to make to Webber for dunks? What about the pick and roll that StocktontoMalone used to perfection for nearly two decades, that ended in a dunk nearly as often as it did in a layup? You can't convince me that those are any less team-oriented than a layup.

The fact of the matter is that whether or not a shot is team oriented is dictated by the circumstances leading up to that shot, not the shot in itself; a guy who pulls up on a 3-on-1 break to shoot a jump shot when he could have passed for an easy dunk, or dribbling on the perimeter only to pull up for a last-second jumper is just as selfish as the guy who takes it into traffic to dunk instead of trying to pass to an open teammate.

 

[HOU CuttinoFan]

What's a higher percentage shot, a dunk or a bank shot? Which is more likely to energize a crowd? Does being a prolific dunker prevent someone from being a team player?

For what it's worth, there's no question in my mind that team defenses are much, much better now than they were in, say, the 80s. If you're going to say that a player going on an isolation and taking his man to the rims flies in the face of the team concept, then how did you feel when Magic Johnson would gamble for a steal and (if he failed) compromised the balance and integrity of his team's defense? Was Magic being a bad teammate? Because just like an isolation play that leads to a dunk, gambling for a steal can have spectacular results, but it can also put your teammates in a very vulnerable position.

Team defense is just as important as team offense. So why do so many people choose to ignore it?

 

[HndsmCelt]

I think many of you confuse the symptoms with the disease. The problem is not the dunk per-say, not the 3 pointer or any other "element of the game" nor is it Spors Centers fault. The problem is much biger and has to do with a increased emphisis on individualism over group values. In sports this has become the monster of free agency that has more or less destroyed team identity. worse yet it has encouraged players to "look out for number one" this means taking one for the team happens less and less. Highligt reels, become a marketing ploys. So now we have guys playing together for short indeterminat amounts of time, worring about the next contract, palying for them selves first the team second... is it any wonder the over all play of the game is down while high light reels contenue to flourish?

 

[VF21]

I think many of you confuse the symptoms with the disease. The problem is not the dunk per-say, not the 3 pointer or any other "element of the game" nor is it Spors Centers fault. The problem is much biger and has to do with a increased emphisis on individualism over group values. In sports this has become the monster of free agency that has more or less destroyed team identity. worse yet it has encouraged players to "look out for number one" this means taking one for the team happens less and less. Highligt reels, become a marketing ploys. So now we have guys playing together for short indeterminat amounts of time, worring about the next contract, palying for them selves first the team second... is it any wonder the over all play of the game is down while high light reels contenue to flourish?

Another excellent point, IMHO.

Slim can argue details and exceptions but the big picture is precisely what you're talking about. Having watched Street Ball on ESPN, it's pretty obvious that the dunk is the premiere play and the real crowd pleaser (at least the crowds that go out to watch those And 1 type events). It's all about individual glory instead of the team.

Too often nowadays, the dunk is being focused on by young men at the expense of the real fundamentals of the game. Guys can dunk and live for the alley oop, but they cannot pass to save their lives.

It's more and more about "the show" - and anyone with any doubts about that had only to watch last year's All-Star festivities. It's pure show and entertainment now; not at all representative in any way of the best in the game playing the best game possible.

Just my three cents, however...

 

[SoupIsGood]

From the little street ball I've seen, it seems to be more about fancy dribble moves and passes more than dunks...


I don't really think the quality of the NBA is all that bad. Teams run different styles, and there are less sharpshooters now, but I still find it entertainingm especially when my team wins.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Another excellent point, IMHO.

Slim can argue details and exceptions but the big picture is precisely what you're talking about. Having watched Street Ball on ESPN, it's pretty obvious that the dunk is the premiere play and the real crowd pleaser (at least the crowds that go out to watch those And 1 type events). It's all about individual glory instead of the team.

Too often nowadays, the dunk is being focused on by young men at the expense of the real fundamentals of the game. Guys can dunk and live for the alley oop, but they cannot pass to save their lives.

It's more and more about "the show" - and anyone with any doubts about that had only to watch last year's All-Star festivities. It's pure show and entertainment now; not at all representative in any way of the best in the game playing the best game possible.

Just my three cents, however...

Uhh... I'm not arguing details or exceptions; in fact, Celt's statement backs up my argument more than it does the opposing viewpoint. He's basically saying the same thing that I already said, which is that selfish play is not inherent in the type of shot being taken, only he's not being as confrontational about the way that he says it.

At least five people in this thread have either said or implied that dunks are inherently selfish, and I'm saying that it's not; no type of shot is inherently selfish, and there's certainly nothing intrinsic to a jump shot that necessitates that it "must" be unselfish, while a dunk cannot be.

The problem that I have with that point of view, VF, is that your argument reads like this to me: a table has legs, Kobe has legs, therefore, Kobe is a table. That's fallacious reasoning; you can't isolate one characteristic of a player's game, whom you consider to be selfish, and then therefore conclude that that characteristic is intrinsically selfish in itself.

I agree with you that "Streetball" is not basketball the way that it was meant to be played, but trying to argue that because a selfish player dunks that dunks must be selfish doesn't fly with me. Set plays are team oriented; iso plays are not. Whether a set play ends with a layup, dunk or a jumpshot has no bearing whatsoever on whether the play is team-oriented or not. Absolutely none whatsoever.

Now, since you think that all I'm doing is arguing "details and exceptions," I'll play the role and actually provide you with an example: Cuttino Mobley. A very vocal minority of Kings fans feel/felt that he's a very selfish player, especially the even more vocal minority of rabid Stojakovic supporters who felt as though Mobley's role should have more closely resembled that of Doug Christie as a playmaker. They didn't consider Mobley selfish because he dunks all the time; they considered him selfish because they felt as though he didn't pass (particularly Stojakovic). They felt as though he didn't do enough to get his teammates involved.

I'm not arguing that the NBA, and North American basketball in general, hasn't become more style than substance. What I am arguing is that the problem is not only much deeper than the dunk shot, but that the dunk itself has little-to-nothing to do with what's wrong with basketball.

Personally, I think that the three-point shot is MUCH more selfish than a dunk.

 

[dukeswh]

Big deal; so are dunks, when they come off of set plays. You talk about the passes by Christie to Stojakovic for layups? Well, what about the passes that Christie used to make to Webber for dunks? What about the pick and roll that StocktontoMalone used to perfection for nearly two decades, that ended in a dunk nearly as often as it did in a layup? You can't convince me that those are any less team-oriented than a layup.

The fact of the matter is that whether or not a shot is team oriented is dictated by the circumstances leading up to that shot, not the shot in itself; a guy who pulls up on a 3-on-1 break to shoot a jump shot when he could have passed for an easy dunk, or dribbling on the perimeter only to pull up for a last-second jumper is just as selfish as the guy who takes it into traffic to dunk instead of trying to pass to an open teammate.

Good point. You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

[jacobdrj]

Alright then... just for the sake of argument, though, what makes a jump shot or a bank shot inherently more "team oriented" than a dunk shot?

You bring out a great point. I never concidered a jump shot more fundamental than a Dunk. The fact is, as I said in my first response, I would like more dunks more often. They are the highest percentage shot out there. Only thing that comes close is a free throw IMHO. However, there are other skills like Hitting the Open Man that are just not practcticed.

 

[VF21]

Uhh... I'm not arguing details or exceptions; in fact, Celt's statement backs up my argument more than it does the opposing viewpoint. He's basically saying the same thing that I already said, which is that selfish play is not inherent in the type of shot being taken, only he's not being as confrontational about the way that he says it.

At least five people in this thread have either said or implied that dunks are inherently selfish, and I'm saying that it's not; no type of shot is inherently selfish, and there's certainly nothing intrinsic to a jump shot that necessitates that it "must" be unselfish, while a dunk cannot be.

The problem that I have with that point of view, VF, is that your argument reads like this to me: a table has legs, Kobe has legs, therefore, Kobe is a table. That's fallacious reasoning; you can't isolate one characteristic of a player's game, whom you consider to be selfish, and then therefore conclude that that characteristic is intrinsically selfish in itself.

I agree with you that "Streetball" is not basketball the way that it was meant to be played, but trying to argue that because a selfish player dunks that dunks must be selfish doesn't fly with me. Set plays are team oriented; iso plays are not. Whether a set play ends with a layup, dunk or a jumpshot has no bearing whatsoever on whether the play is team-oriented or not. Absolutely none whatsoever.

Now, since you think that all I'm doing is arguing "details and exceptions," I'll play the role and actually provide you with an example: Cuttino Mobley. A very vocal minority of Kings fans feel/felt that he's a very selfish player, especially the even more vocal minority of rabid Stojakovic supporters who felt as though Mobley's role should have more closely resembled that of Doug Christie as a playmaker. They didn't consider Mobley selfish because he dunks all the time; they considered him selfish because they felt as though he didn't pass (particularly Stojakovic). They felt as though he didn't do enough to get his teammates involved.

I'm not arguing that the NBA, and North American basketball in general, hasn't become more style than substance. What I am arguing is that the problem is not only much deeper than the dunk shot, but that the dunk itself has little-to-nothing to do with what's wrong with basketball.

Personally, I think that the three-point shot is MUCH more selfish than a dunk.

Either I've lost the capacity to express my thought accurately, or you're misunderstanding the point I'm trying to make. It all pretty much boils down to something I said earlier:

Too often nowadays, the dunk is being focused on by young men at the expense of the real fundamentals of the game. Guys can dunk and live for the alley oop, but they cannot pass to save their lives.

It's more and more about "the show" - and anyone with any doubts about that had only to watch last year's All-Star festivities. It's pure show and entertainment now; not at all representative in any way of the best in the game playing the best game possible.

Too many younger players are attempting to come into the league with the apparent idea that as long as they can dunk, their futures are secured. And - in a number of cases - they are sadly mistaken.

Perhaps the dunk is just the most obvious symptom of the disease, which is a total lack of focus/knowledge of the true fundamentals. It (meaning dunking) has become so predominant, however, that it is almost a separate disease in and of itself IMHO.

Dunks - as practiced by the type of player I'm referring to - are intrinsically selfish. Why? Because that's the way the players learned the game. They don't view it as a team game; they view it solely as an opportunity for personal glory.

If you notice, I haven't really gotten down to labelling one player or another as selfish. I'm talking about a certain category of player as opposed to arguing the details of any one young man in particular.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I disagree with your point of view; I think that there are just as many players who think that they can "secure their future" by developing a three-point shot, to the detriment of the rest of their game, as is apparent by the disturbingly high number of players who can shoot threes but seem unable to hit a midrange jumper.

I also disagree that dunks are the most obvious symptom of what's wrong with North American basketball. I agree that there is entirely too much individualism in the NBA, but dunks don't have anything to do with it and, when you think about it, most of the players who have national reputations for being selfish are not particularly known for dunking, anyway.

And, since I don't like to argue in the abstract, I have some more examples for you: when Jason Williams dribbles the ball up the court and takes a twenty-seven foot three-point shot with nineteen seconds left on the shot clock, it is every bit as selfish as when Tracy McGrady ignores open teammates to drive through three defenders and try to dunk. And the same thing goes for Antoine Walker... The problem is way deeper than the type of shot.

 

[Londonking]

I've found this an interesting thread to read, as i've not really given thought to how play has evolved in the NBA before....

In the couple of years i have been following NBA (thanks to the Kings) i had always assumed the the Allstar game was supposed to be 'pure show and entertainment' rather than bragging rights over whether the West players are better than the East or vice-versa. if i had a ticket to the Allstar game i think i would want to see flashy plays. who wins seems less important to the casual (offshore) observer. (When there weren't any Kings players selected last year i didnt even stay up to watch it).

As for whether one type of play could be viewed as 'more' selfish than another, i wouldnt have thought so, but surely for those who fear the quality of the play in the NBA is deteriorating wont this be self -healed by the teams which play as Teams rather than individuals. eg: If Shaq is the premier 'selfish dunker' we've seen how teams overcame him and Kobe or him and Wade.

I guess it is quite a thin line between being selfish and stepping up and taking responsibility at crunch time. ultimately how these players are judged is defined by the level of success. Cat was viewed (by some) as selfish because he missed quite a few, Bibby on the other hand made sure he shot the ball when it mattered on more than one occasion and scored...people remember the results, and than can define the tag given to the player.

 

[VF21]

I disagree with your point of view; I think that there are just as many players who think that they can "secure their future" by developing a three-point shot, to the detriment of the rest of their game, as is apparent by the disturbingly high number of players who can shoot threes but seem unable to hit a midrange jumper.

I also disagree that dunks are the most obvious symptom of what's wrong with North American basketball. I agree that there is entirely too much individualism in the NBA, but dunks don't have anything to do with it and, when you think about it, most of the players who have national reputations for being selfish are not particularly known for dunking, anyway.

And, since I don't like to argue in the abstract, I have some more examples for you: when Jason Williams dribbles the ball up the court and takes a twenty-seven foot three-point shot with nineteen seconds left on the shot clock, it is every bit as selfish as when Tracy McGrady ignores open teammates to drive through three defenders and try to dunk. And the same thing goes for Antoine Walker... The problem is way deeper than the type of shot.

Then we'll simply agree to disagree because I don't particularly want to spend the next few weeks arguing each player that either dunks or shoots threes. So far, you've come up with a couple of examples that are pretty obvious and well-known. Jason Williams is selfish? And T-Mac? OMG! Stop the presses!!!

You keep referring to well-established players to make your point. I keep trying - and apparently failing - to get you to understand that my point, based on watching the And1 type stuff for almost an entire year, is that a far greater number of young hopefuls seem to want to perfect that show-time dunk. They aren't pulling up and shooting threes; they're slashing and driving and going for one dunk after another.

I'm not going to debate further for the simple reason we have a conceptual difference of opinion on this. I'm agreeing to disagree with you, because we are both avid basketball fans who have different perceptions about some things. We do agree selfishness is a major problem; we just disagree on the most prevalent examples of that selfishness.

Peace.

 

[acisking]

i agree totally with slim....maybe seeing flashy dunks will inspire people to perform dunks but that does not make the concept of a dunk detrimental to the game...a dunk can be very individualized or it can result from a great deal of team play...the same thing applies to any type of a shot...and how is a layup any more team-priented than a dunk...if anything its just a lesser percentage of a shot...if u look in the 80s and 90s, some of the greatest players were also tremendous dunkers, but that did not decrease their effectiveness...and in my opinion, as slim pointed out, it is far more troublesome to me that there are players (who have even made it to the nba) who can only shoot threes and can hardly make any other type of shot (kyle korver and bruce bowen come to mind)...while i do agree that sports center may dilute the opinion of young players of what basketball is really about, its hard to blame that on the dunk shot itself...not to mention the fact that contrary to popular belief, most young players have become much more defense-oriented than their predecessors, due to the pressure of coaches during the shift of focus from offense to defnse in the post-jordan era

 

[VF21]

acis - You're talking in the abstract. Yes, a dunk can be this or that, but unfortunately it's becoming more and more this and way too little of that. But that's not why I'm responding...

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contrary to popular belief, most young players have become much more defense-oriented than their predecessors, due to the pressure of coaches during the shift of focus from offense to defnse in the post-jordan era.

I don't know what you're using as a basis for your observation, but it is NOT true IMHO that MOST young players have become much more defense oriented. Their coaches may be trying to emphasize defense, but that doesn't mean it's what they want to do. Have you ever watched a group of young players? When's the last time you heard one of them congratulate another for a great job on defense? It doesn't happen... You see guys jacking up threes or going for the show-time dunk and the other players and the spectators go nuts. Defense doesn't get the folks up on their feet cheering wildly...