NBA Playoffs, Round One

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mac said:
Go back to the threads - the usual chain is as follows: poster X says X is better than Fox (not crapping on Fox, just saying e.g. Morant is better). They play head to head and Fox probably has a good game. Poster Y comes in and makes reference to the general opinion of post X while bashing player X and praising Fox. I don't want to name names, but go look at all the PHX game threads over the past few years and see how certain people kept saying Booker was terrible, just a chucker, wouldn't want him on the team etc. Same thing for Trae Young. Meanwhile you have other posters who in year 3-4 still thought Willie Cauley Stein was some unicorn defensive beast who was gonna command $15mm a year and just needed time to develop.

The whole problem is what you say - it's believing that Fox is AS great as some of these guys when he hasn't achieved diddly squat. That's called overvaluing your players, and doing so can be very detrimental to team building, for example causing you to not draft Luka because you don't want to take the ball out of Fox's hands. It gives people stupid ideas like not being willing to trade DeMarcus Cousins for 30year old LeBron James. Overvaluing the wrong player also typically results in undervaluing lesser players, who would otherwise be valuable players next to legitimate superstars. All this is not to say that Fox can't be a superstar, it's that I don't want to treat him as one when he isn't even an all star. It's altogether separate from rooting for his success. And now the same thing is happening with Hali. He looks very very promising, says and does all the right things, but I'm not ready to pencil him in as a max player for our squad after only 60 games.

Different scenario for Bagley and Buddy though. They just get hated outright.
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Sooo your very first scenario proves my point. Why go to a kings site to say another player is better than fox and act surprised when fox beats that player head to head, kings fans point it out. What’s the point unless you’re a troll or what to pick a fight. Go in the nba thread and praise player x or better yet praise player x without bringing up him being better than fox on a kings fan site.
Barely anyone one doubts they’re talented, but it’s usually a troll bringing up the comparison when it’s not needed, then gets butt hurt when the whole place defends the kings player.
Also, booker is overrated. Have you watched the last few games pretty much without Paul? Cousins over lebron? Yeah, I agree, some fans are delusional
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
As a regular listener to the LeBatard show, this series reminds me of how there were Heat fans who spent last offseason saying that they were unwilling to give up Tyler Herro and Duncan Robinson, to get back James Harden... I wonder how those fans feel, right about now?
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It really feels like riding a bubble hot streak on the back of Jimmy Butler was the worst thing that could have happened to the Heat for their longterm success. They sorta tricked themselves into thinking they were closer to the top of the league than they actually were and spent the year acting accordingly.

I want to see them succeed because I love Bam and Jimmy Butler but they’re going to have to make a big change to do it.
 
steelevt said:
Sooo your very first scenario proves my point. Why go to a kings site to say another player is better than fox and act surprised when fox beats that player head to head, kings fans point it out. What’s the point unless you’re a troll or what to pick a fight. Go in the nba thread and praise player x or better yet praise player x without bringing up him being better than fox on a kings fan site.
Barely anyone one doubts they’re talented, but it’s usually a troll bringing up the comparison when it’s not needed, then gets butt hurt when the whole place defends the kings player.
Also, booker is overrated. Have you watched the last few games pretty much without Paul? Cousins over lebron? Yeah, I agree, some fans are delusional
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In my defense (don’t remember if I was one of the guys arguing this or not but for the sake of the discussion, I’ll bite the bullet), Lebron was like 31 at the time and to that point most players reaching that age range tended to bottom out and Boogie’s legs hadn’t yet decided to rage quit professional basketball. Lebron continuing to play like an MVP despite pretty much being the last guy from his generation in the league (aside from Melo) is just proof of his greatness.
 
Tetsujin said:
It really feels like riding a bubble hot streak on the back of Jimmy Butler was the worst thing that could have happened to the Heat for their longterm success. They sorta tricked themselves into thinking they were closer to the top of the league than they actually were and spent the year acting accordingly.

I want to see them succeed because I love Bam and Jimmy Butler but they’re going to have to make a big change to do it.
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They still have Riley so there's a chance.
 
Tetsujin said:
In my defense (don’t remember if I was one of the guys arguing this or not but for the sake of the discussion, I’ll bite the bullet), Lebron was like 31 at the time and to that point most players reaching that age range tended to bottom out and Boogie’s legs hadn’t yet decided to rage quit professional basketball. Lebron continuing to play like an MVP despite pretty much being the last guy from his generation in the league (aside from Melo) is just proof of his greatness.
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In addition to that, it can't be understated that that was when a paradigm shift was happening, in real time, in the NBA. Basketball changed in a way that allowed the careers of guys like James to be extended, beyond what they may have been, previously. We also had not quite yet arrived at the point where the analytics nerds had schemed low-post big men off the court (that was still actively in the process of occurring): remember how Roy Hibbert went from All-Star to out of the league, in three years? That happened, around the same time. And, as far as Cousins goes, whether you were on the "not a winner" train from Day One, or not, when a guy is just entering his prime, coming off his career scoring high and his second-straight All-NBA selection at 25, you're probably not expecting him to be washed by 28.
 
Tetsujin said:
In my defense (don’t remember if I was one of the guys arguing this or not but for the sake of the discussion, I’ll bite the bullet), Lebron was like 31 at the time and to that point most players reaching that age range tended to bottom out and Boogie’s legs hadn’t yet decided to rage quit professional basketball. Lebron continuing to play like an MVP despite pretty much being the last guy from his generation in the league (aside from Melo) is just proof of his greatness.
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There were some that were on the fence and their main arguments was either you can’t teach size and age. Those were understandable and no one could have predicted injury/change in game etc. But those basing it on talent alone or thinking lebron was already washed up was who I was referring to.
 
steelevt said:
Sooo your very first scenario proves my point. Why go to a kings site to say another player is better than fox and act surprised when fox beats that player head to head, kings fans point it out. What’s the point unless you’re a troll or what to pick a fight. Go in the nba thread and praise player x or better yet praise player x without bringing up him being better than fox on a kings fan site.
Barely anyone one doubts they’re talented, but it’s usually a troll bringing up the comparison when it’s not needed, then gets butt hurt when the whole place defends the kings player.
Also, booker is overrated. Have you watched the last few games pretty much without Paul? Cousins over lebron? Yeah, I agree, some fans are delusional
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Meh, I won't speak on your behalf but I personally don't view player comparisons as particularly offensive to the support of my team.
Why go to a Kings site? Well this may come as a surprise to you but being a fan of a team shouldn't preclude a person from liking other players. It's not as if these folks aren't Kings fans and only come here to say X is better than Fox. Why post player comparisons, well largely due to thought experiments, or perhaps just expressing frustration when the team isn't winning and wishing you had star X instead of your player (Fox, Bagley etc) because you think we'd be winning more.

I'm not 8 years old, I'm pretty aware of the reality that my team isn't very good and implicitly that should tell you the players on the team aren't that good either, or at least until otherwise proven. That's something that admittedly irks me with Fox - I appreciate standing up for the Kings, but so far he hasn't backed up all these social media slights (against him, against the team) with actual wins. It's not all on him, and nobody in their right mind will say that he is the only reason why we've been losing, but as franchise-proclaimed star it ultimately falls on him to be the leader. I'd rather he just shut up and prove people wrong with his play and the team's success.

Look if this time next year we go head to head against the Blazers in the playoffs and Fox averages 30 a game for us to win the series I'd be absolutely delighted, but till then I'm not starting "will Fox have a better career than Damian Lillard" threads when Fox's greatest accomplishment to date is being player of the week. My fandom is expressed in wanting the team to succeed, not in blind optimism. Constructive criticism is a thing.
 
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mac said:
.... Constructive criticism is a thing.
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It is, indeed. But I think that one problem that @steelevt and others have is that entirely too many people appear to lack the ability to provide constructive criticism without coming across as (1) hostile, and (2) unspeakably obnoxious... And trust me, if there's anybody on this message board who can recognize obnoxious, when he sees it...

:: points thumbs at self ::


If I'm being completely honest, every last one of us should probably try to be more like @bajaden.
 
mac said:
Meh, I won't speak on your behalf but I personally don't view player comparisons as particularly offensive to the support of my team.
Why go to a Kings site? Well this may come as a surprise to you but being a fan of a team shouldn't preclude a person from liking other players. It's not as if these folks aren't Kings fans and only come here to say X is better than Fox. Why post player comparisons, well largely due to thought experiments, or perhaps just expressing frustration when the team isn't winning and wishing you had star X instead of your player (Fox, Bagley etc) because you think we'd be winning more.

I'm not 8 years old, I'm pretty aware of the reality that my team isn't very good and implicitly that should tell you the players on the team aren't that good either, or at least until otherwise proven. That's something that admittedly irks me with Fox - I appreciate standing up for the Kings, but so far he hasn't backed up all these social media slights (against him, against the team) with actual wins. It's not all on him, and nobody in their right mind will say that he is the only reason why we've been losing, but as franchise-proclaimed star it ultimately falls on him to be the leader. I'd rather he just shut up and prove people wrong with his play and the team's success.

Look if this time next year we go head to head against the Blazers in the playoffs and Fox averages 30 a game for us to win the series I'd be absolutely delighted, but till then I'm not starting "will Fox have a better career than Damian Lillard" threads when Fox's greatest accomplishment to date is being player of the week. My fandom is expressed in wanting the team to succeed, not in blind optimism. Constructive criticism is a thing.
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First bolded part. I don’t think I ever stated it does so it doesn’t come as a surprise to me. I stated multiple times that people here can and do like other players. I like plenty of players that aren’t on our team and though I dislike others, I recognized plenty of them are superior to ours. What comes as a surprise to me, as I stated earlier, is when people come here (especially in “kings rap”) to say those players are so much better than our players and get butt hurt and defensive when kings fans stand up for their players. Like it’s so unexpected for us to defend our best player(s) against possible trolls, how dare we not see your point of view.

Bolded part 2: I don’t think anyone at this point should start that thread. He certainly is not now but who’s to say what happens in the future? You say people put down booker but what has he and the suns done before the last 2 years? His team gets Chris Paul and suddenly makes the playoffs and apparently he’s grouped together with Luka, Mitchell, Tatum and lillard? This is a team game and rarely does one guy carry his team to the playoffs. No matter what fox does there will be the haters. Make it to the playoffs? He didn’t make it to the finals!!! Make it to the finals? He didn’t win it all!! Get this city a championship? He needed another star on the team to do it!! There will always be “that guy” on this site waiting to speak up when the kings or fox falters yet hides when fox is leading us on win streaks.
There’s no right way to be a fan or right way to fan. Neither I or anyone can tell you or anyone else how they should be a fan. But continuing to put down a player on the team is definitely not the best way to do it. And if you do it long enough or to enough players on said team, many wouldn’t actually consider you a fan of the team. You can hope for a team to do better without being a blind homer and hopefully constructively criticize without being a troll.

Edit: btw, even though I’ve quoted you and have this dialogue with you, I’m not accusing you. I assume you are playing devils advocate. These so called trolls I’m calling out aren’t anyone specifically, just posts I’ve seen throughout the years and not linked to anyone in particular. I commonly make broad comments and accusations and don’t mean anyone specific. Just had to mention this after the confusion in an earlier post with @Tetsujin
 
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steelevt said:
First bolded part. I don’t think I ever stated it does so it doesn’t come as a surprise to me. I stated multiple times that people here can and do like other players. I like plenty of players that aren’t on our team and though I dislike others, I recognized plenty of them are superior to ours. What comes as a surprise to me, as I stated earlier, is when people come here (especially in “kings rap”) to say those players are so much better than our players and get butt hurt and defensive when kings fans stand up for their players. Like it’s so unexpected for us to defend our best player(s) against possible trolls, how dare we not see your point of view.

Bolded part 2: I don’t think anyone at this point should start that thread. He certainly is not now but who’s to say what happens in the future? You say people put down booker but what has he and the suns done before the last 2 years? His team gets Chris Paul and suddenly makes the playoffs and apparently he’s grouped together with Luka, Mitchell, Tatum and lillard? This is a team game and rarely does one guy carry his team to the playoffs. No matter what fox does there will be the haters. Make it to the playoffs? He didn’t make it to the finals!!! Make it to the finals? He didn’t win it all!! Get this city a championship? He needed another star on the team to do it!! There will always be “that guy” on this site waiting to speak up when the kings or fox falters yet hides when fox is leading us on win streaks.
There’s no right way to be a fan or right way to fan. Neither I or anyone can tell you or anyone else how they should be a fan. But continuing to put down a player on the team is definitely not the best way to do it. And if you do it long enough or to enough players on said team, many wouldn’t actually consider you a fan of the team. You can hope for a team to do better without being a blind homer and hopefully constructively criticize without being a troll.

Edit: btw, even though I’ve quoted you and have this dialogue with you, I’m not accusing you. I assume you are playing devils advocate. These so called trolls I’m calling out aren’t anyone specifically, just posts I’ve seen throughout the years and not linked to anyone in particular. I commonly make broad comments and accusations and don’t mean anyone specific. Just had to mention this after the confusion in an earlier post with @Tetsujin
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Fair enough and look, I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying. You don't want to put down our players to hype others, and I don't want to put down other players to hype ours. I think we're very much in general agreement that basically you shouldn't need to put down a player to praise another. I speak to a group of posters who take offense at some media piece or ranking or whatever, think Fox is so great and I say "hey, don't forget the guy still has ways to go. He isn't even an all star, so you might want to have second thoughts before you say KAT and Zion are overrated, or Booker is a chucker or Ja can't hold a candle to Fox etc, lest we forget that we are the laughingstock of the NBA". One example is this post by you (sorry to dig this up, not trying to get personal, but just trying to be specific about what I'm talking about):

steelevt said:
what about ja morant? isnt he who fox thinks he is?
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I mean, nobody in that thread had even mentioned Ja, but you brought him up I assume to make a sarcastic point in response to that Elhassan tweet or whatever.

You speak to a different group of posters who perhaps are just here to hate on Fox or other Kings players (and I totally get that in particular where it applies to Buddy). I doubt we have much issue with the middle ground where it's posters responding to trolls as you say.
 
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mac said:
One example is this post by you (sorry to dig this up, not trying to get personal, but just trying to be specific about what I'm talking about):



I mean, nobody in that thread had even mentioned Ja, but you brought him up I assume to make a sarcastic point in response to that Elhassan tweet or whatever.
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I don’t take it personal. People should be held to their old posts and I stand by that post. It is exactly what I’m talking about. This is a kings site and when someone talks crap about a kings player, we defend them. That quote was talked about on here and fox took exception to the tweet on IG. It was a slight to fox by elhassan and when fox was playing better than ja during our streak or he has a career game, it was to remind whoever agreed with it, that the tweet or whatever was unnecessary crap.

To the second part. Context from my post was also important. If you are digging up an old quote, there has to be some context and not just a gotcha moment. This isn’t like my examples of trolls going into game threads or kings rap and trashing fox and praising player x. I think you’re implying that I’m doing something similar in fox’s favor. You say no one mentioned ja and I posted that. If you read who I was quoting, it asks who are the top pg in the west? Since “nobody in the thread mentioned ja” and he is a top pg in the west, I’d assume you would want him mentioned. I threw in the sarcastic quote for fun but I never put down ja, just made fun of elhassan for being stupid for trashing fox unnecessarily.
Each of your replies are backing up my point. Don’t get bothered or surprised by kings fans standing up for king players on a kings fans site.

Edit: realizing this convo is in the playoff thread and we are getting off topic. In the end we are kinda on the same page about those going to the extreme and those in the middle ground are ok. There are points we just have to agree to disagree on and that’s fine. I’ve had convos like this with plenty here on the site and overall it’s respectful and I enjoy it cuz most on this site are cool people even if we disagree. If you want to respond it’s fine but if I don’t reply here it’s just to respect the site rules. (We’re old timers here and will prob find other topics to discuss/debate on, hopefully in the correct thread)
 
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so anyone else find themselves becoming a fan of another team just to have some positive fandom? Loving watching Bogi play so well on the Hawks.
 
sactowndog said:
so anyone else find themselves becoming a fan of another team just to have some positive fandom? Loving watching Bogi play so well on the Hawks.
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I may have to eat some crow with Bogi. I hated his game as a King, and I believe I told you as much in another thread, but he’s been killing it for them.

Luke Walton effect haha
 
Man, those Quickley is better than Haliburton hot takes sure went away fast as the Knicks are showing the downside to being a team whose second best playmaker is Zombie D-Rose.
 
gunks said:
I may have to eat some crow with Bogi. I hated his game as a King, and I believe I told you as much in another thread, but he’s been killing it for them.

Luke Walton effect haha
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yeah in fairness Bogi and Buddy were a bit of an overlap putting Bogi in a position of being the primary creator which isn’t really his strength. I think that contributed to his over dribbling and bad shots off the dribble.

I would have really loved to see Bogi and Hali play together.
 
sactowndog said:
yeah in fairness Bogi and Buddy were a bit of an overlap putting Bogi in a position of being the primary creator which isn’t really his strength. I think that contributed to his over dribbling and bad shots off the dribble.

I would have really loved to see Bogi and Hali play together.
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Yeah, the Buddy/Bogi was horrible roster design and lead to a lot of forced play from both players.

Ah well
 
gunks said:
Yeah, the Buddy/Bogi was horrible roster design and lead to a lot of forced play from both players.

Ah well
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Oh well. Buddy's probably gone soon and the Kings wound up with a much more effective long term backcourt rotation solution in Fox/Haliburton/Wright/Davis/(NEW JJ!!!!) anyways.

Would have preferred not wasting three years watching Bogi and Buddy take turns trying to out-bad shot each other in lieu of passing it to Fox but what happen happened. (Also Buddy ended up turning into an okay ballmover by sheer virtue of Luke misplaying him for two seasons)
 
Really is remarkable that the media propped the Lakers up as being the deepest team in the league earlier in the year when that depth was pretty much the best player of the 21st century, an injury prone superstar big man, a bunch of really flawed bigs (Gasol -too old, Drummond -too Drummondy, Trez -Undersized/bad at defense, Kuzma -Bad at defense/soft), and a bunch of guards who got a bunch of bonus points for being Lakers.

In conclusion, the Lakers should play B-Mac and THT more. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
 
sactowndog said:
so anyone else find themselves becoming a fan of another team just to have some positive fandom? Loving watching Bogi play so well on the Hawks.
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15 years of missing the playoffs, most of us learn to root for a second or third team since our season ends with the regular season. I usually root for ex kings like when bibby was on atl, or more recently dmc or nuggets due to Malone. I also hope bogi plays well. Also have players I like in general like dame, lebron pre-lakers, Mitchell etc. and of course any team playing the lakers.
 
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