KingsCitizen
Starter
Well there ya go! A Grizzly win!
[NBA Playoffs] Conference Semifinals open thread
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lawlman91
Starter
Padrino
All-Star
the griz held the warriors to 17 points under their season average. tony allen absolutely smothered klay, and memphis' team D blitzed curry off his game. when you neutralize the warriors' outside shooting like that, they often seem lost out there, and they can't always generate consistent buckets at the rim when the three ball isn't falling. memphis strikes me as the most likely opponent to topple the warriors because of the strength of their guard defense. they can push both curry and thompson well outside of their established comfort zones...
more to the point, memphis is as philosophically oppositional to golden state as it gets. this series almost feels as if it's about more than determining who advances to the conference finals. it feels a bit like a battle for the soul of the nba; will "pace and space" be victorious? or will "grit and grind" seize the day? for at least one game, contemporary nba trends were rendered utterly ineffective in the face of classic toughness...
more to the point, memphis is as philosophically oppositional to golden state as it gets. this series almost feels as if it's about more than determining who advances to the conference finals. it feels a bit like a battle for the soul of the nba; will "pace and space" be victorious? or will "grit and grind" seize the day? for at least one game, contemporary nba trends were rendered utterly ineffective in the face of classic toughness...
While that's true, GS is also a very very good defensive team. That often gets lost in all the Splash brothers talk and 3 point shooting. That is what makes them different from say the Suns a few years back. As much as I hate to admit it, this particular GS team it's just a run and gun, pace and space team. They move the ball very well, don't always settle for 3s (which I think the Hawks have been guilty of thus far) and play good D.
Curry and Thompson shot poorly - it's yet to be determined whether that was simply them missing shots or a result of good Memphis D. In all likelihood, it's a combination of both. Usually we say that a team that relies on outside shooting isn't going to last deep in the playoffs over a 7 game series - a time comes when shots don't fall. The thing with Curry is that on average his shot may just fall more than it doesn't. IMO it's going to come down to whether GS' shooting can outlast good Memphis D over the series.
K
KingMilz
Guest
Tony Allen just put on one of the great all time defensive games I have ever seen, Marc has been super disappointing where's the guy that was aggressive at the start of the year? If Marc and Green (who's basically been a poor man's Derrick Williams this series) can show up who knows what can happened. Mike Conley just took it to Curry in game 2 and Z-Bo was Z-Bo.
Vince Carter has been a Ramon Sessions level disaster in Memphis this year as well he's been terrible, they need his 3's.
Vince Carter has been a Ramon Sessions level disaster in Memphis this year as well he's been terrible, they need his 3's.
Meanwhile, Ramon Sessions was pretty decent for the Wizards
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I disagree.
If Vivek is going to sit court side which he did tonight, as least he saw a physical and defensive minded team punk his infatuation up close.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
You're grossly overstating the impact this series is going to have on our team. If for some reason Vivek/Vlade/PDA are looking at the result of this series to decide how they're going to build the Kings we've got much, much bigger issues. You build a team based on what your individual needs are, not by "modeling" your team like any other contemporary or historic team. Kings need perimeter defense, shooting, and depth around Cousins, regardless of whether Golden State or Memphis wins the series.
This is overly dramatic and simplistic. I would characterize it more of historically great shooting offense of the Warriors against a balanced Grizzlies team. The reason the Grizzlies won is because the Warriors could not guard Conley and their perimeter attack was shut down. It was a gutsy performance from Conley for sure, but really, if Conley is going to outplay Curry then the Warriors aren't going to win. I wouldn't count on that happening consistently in this series, but hey, I could be wrong. If Conley's scoring like that, the Grizzlies are a fearsome balanced team.
The way the Warriors play isn't really a trend. Curry's a one of a kind shooter, one of the most unique players in NBA history. He hits low percentage shots at ridiculous rates. The Warriors have been able to get away with eschewing inside-out balance simply because Curry's shooting is so unprecedented. But that's not the trend. Pace-and-space has two goals: 1) "pace" is using defense to create fast break opportunities to score easy baskets before the opposing defense sets up; 2) "space" is in the halfcourt, using shooters to stretch out defenses so that scoring in the paint becomes easier.
You could argue that yesterday the Grizzlies actually beat the Warriors at "pace-and-space". The pace of the game was pretty high for a playoff game at 95 possessions; in the Conference semifinals, its the second fastest played game so far after Clips/Rockets game 1 (which was at a ridiculous pace because both teams turned the ball over at historic rates for the playoffs). It was played at a faster pace than Game 1, which the Warriors won. The Grizzlies forced more turnovers and got out on the fast break, scoring more points in transition (21-19). They also shot a better three point percentage than the Warriors did; Conley hit more threes than Curry and Lee hit more threes than Thompson. Believe it or not, points in the paint were dead even between the two teams at 42.
"Pace-and-space" is a modern NBA requirement because of the way the rules allow defenses to play. You have to get out in transition to score easily because halfcourt defenses are too good. You have to space the floor with shooters to give slashers and post players breathing room otherwise you will be swarmed. The Grizzlies are a great defensive team with plenty of punch in the paint, but questionable perimeter explosiveness that will determine how far they go. The Warriors are a great defensive team with a freakish perimeter attack, and how much that perimeter attack can mitigate their lack of balance will determine how far they go. This isn't a battle for the "soul" of the NBA so much as it is a battle to see which individual team can mitigate their weaknesses better. Either way, I personally think the Clippers are going to advance to the Finals because their offense is the most diverse out of all the teams left.
Padrino
All-Star
all of that may have some truth to it, but i really believe that the eye test matters here. last night, i saw a warriors team that looked hurried, even panicked at times (hell, at one point klay thompson decided to jack up a running, one-legged three-pointer), rather than a team that was controlling the pace and simply missing shots that it would normally expect to make. i also saw a grizzlies team that looked mightily in control of their destiny for the majority of the game. steve kerr himself admitted in his post-game interview that the grizzlies set the tone and tempo, and that the slower pace hurt the warriors. the numbers may say that the game was played at a moderately fast pace (hardly "fast" by the warriors regular season standards, btw), because memphis' stingy, handsy defense forced 20 golden state turnovers, but it's fairly obvious to me that the grizzlies won the halfcourt battle by methodically slowing the game down, and tiring out the warriors' defense by making them dig in for the majority of each shot clock (it was especially apparent in the fourth quarter, when the warriors typically just run teams off the court)...
and yes, the grizzlies shot better from three than the warriors did, and it's definitely important that memphis makes some of the three's they take in this series, but they still only put up 15 of them. they're attempting just a shade under 13 three's per game in these playoffs, where the warriors are hucking nearly 30 per game. if that doesn't represent a philosophical divide between a team that makes its living with a light touch outside the arc and one that makes its living by pounding the ball inside, then i don't know what does. points in the paint may have been a wash in last night's game, but you can't look at that statistic in a vacuum; memphis took away golden state's one measurable advantage--beyond the three-point line. the warriors had to find some spark at the rim, because thompson and curry were being smothered by allen, conley, and co. out on the wings. it's true enough that the splash brothers are able to light it up even when their shots are contested, but that's not going to stop memphis from trying their damndest to make as many of those three's as difficult as humanly possible...
that said, i don't disagree at all that i'm being "overly dramatic and simplistic," but ya know what? i don't really care. i'm infinitely less interested in examining the minutiae of data that one can collect in the age of analytics. we talk about that sh** all regular season long. by the time the playoffs begin, every participating team is a known quantity. we understand the statistical advantages of each, and as you say, it mostly becomes a war of attrition, of each team "mitigat[ing] their weaknesses." but i'm not watching the nba playoffs because i want to see teams outlast each other. i'm not watching to see if the number crunchers were able to accurately predict the vegas odds. i'm watching for the incredible drama that playoff basketball generates. i'm watching for the clash of philosophies, for the storylines, for the budding rivalries...
do you think tony allen cares that "grit and grind" is probably a reductionist depiction of memphis' style of play, which has become a bit more in tune with contemporary nba trends since dave joerger took over? no, allen absolutely doesn't care about that. "grit and grind" is in his basketball dna; it defines the way he plays, and his investment in that identity is what drove him to lock down one of the league's most prolific shooting guards. it's about so much more than the math of a good defender besting a good offensive player. the moment allen pounced on klay thompson for that nasty steal was the moment i knew the grizzlies were going to win the game. he looked like a leopard enveloping an antelope. in that moment, the game wasn't about pace or spacing or trends or the boxes we try to put around what constitutes "modern nba requirements"; it was about sheer force of will...
see, i'm much more interested in treating the nba playoffs as spectacle, as home for the narratives that live on for decades after discussions of the numbers have long since died down. if this warriors-grizzlies series takes on a truly memorable tone beyond last night's game, people will be talking about mike conley's "masked man" performance much more than they will be talking about quantities like "pace." i still say that this series represents a battle for the soul of the nba, not because it's necessarily a 100% "accurate" representation of the two teams involved, but because sports (and the love of sports) thrive on such narratives. it was visible on the court in last night's game, in the attitudes of the players on the court, in golden state's persistence to shoot three's despite the hands in their faces, in the way that memphis' energy level manifested itself, and certainly in the way the game is being talked about this morning...
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IfAt1st
Starter
Maybe you haven't been keeping up with current events, pal..... but we quite clearly do have much, much bigger issues.
HighFlyingMonkey
Starter
Actually, all of it was truth, and you can look it up
Narratives are fine. I, for one, really enjoyed Memphis' tenacity on the road when nobody in the country was giving them a shot to win. There's plenty of poetic themes to enjoy; a facemasked Conley seeking and destroying like a Terimnator, Tony Allen harassing the hell out of the perimeter shouting "FIRST TEAM ALL DEFENSE!", the epic battles in the post between Gasol/Zbo and Green/Bogut. All of the storylines are there for your enjoyment, all of the "budding rivalries, storylines and philosophies" as you so eloquently put. I would hardly consider that overdramatic at all.
The eyeroll-inducing part is where the series becomes either a referendum or a validation of the direction the game has evolved towards, where the "soul of the NBA" is at stake. Its laughable. You can tell by the nonsensical turn of "pace-and-space" into a pejorative as if its some kind of blasphemous innovation corrupting the styles of teams across the league, and the Grizzlies being the last rebel holdout against the revolution. Its nonsense. The internals of the game are the same for the Grizzlies as they are for the Warriors. Different styles of play? Of course. Did Memphis win with heart, "grit and grind" yesterday? Of course. But lets stop pretending that the Grizzlies and Warriors aren't part of the same milieu of successful teams.
You want to pretend the Grizzlies didn't get out on the fast break? Want to pretend that the Grizzlies don't have shooters at four of the five positions on the court (the only exception really being Tony Allen)? There is plenty of drama, suspense, rivalries, storylines, heart, and wonderment to be enjoyed without regressing into a Charles Barkley-esque dichotomy. This isn't about analytics, data, or prediction of who wins. You want to talk about Conley's masked game as opposed to concepts like pace-and-space but you're the one who brought it up in the first place. This isn't about the soul of the game. This is about the lionhearted Grizzlies trying to tear down the NBA's Goliath.
Henkel
Starter
I had no idea the very soul of the NBA hung in the balance as well as the merits of "pace and space". Strange considering the last three finals. Those must of been warm ups for round two of the 2015 playoff.
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I don't know - the Warriors have pretty much been "crowned the champs" by some already based on their great record, flashy style, and fast pace. Padrino says it "feels" like this is the deciding series to see which will dominate and I don't know that I disagree with him. I'm rooting for Memphis to beat them to a pulp and pull out the series. And it would definitely feel like such a win would somewhat repudiate the more recent focus on the Kings FO on increasing the pace of the team just for the sake of increasing the pace. Build a good team, don't focus on arbitrary external measures. I'm not speaking for him, but that is how I read his comments, and to a certain extent I agree.
Padrino
All-Star
Actually, all of it was truth, and you can look it up
Narratives are fine. I, for one, really enjoyed Memphis' tenacity on the road when nobody in the country was giving them a shot to win. There's plenty of poetic themes to enjoy; a facemasked Conley seeking and destroying like a Terimnator, Tony Allen harassing the hell out of the perimeter shouting "FIRST TEAM ALL DEFENSE!", the epic battles in the post between Gasol/Zbo and Green/Bogut. All of the storylines are there for your enjoyment, all of the "budding rivalries, storylines and philosophies" as you so eloquently put. I would hardly consider that overdramatic at all.
The eyeroll-inducing part is where the series becomes either a referendum or a validation of the direction the game has evolved towards, where the "soul of the NBA" is at stake. Its laughable. You can tell by the nonsensical turn of "pace-and-space" into a pejorative as if its some kind of blasphemous innovation corrupting the styles of teams across the league, and the Grizzlies being the last rebel holdout against the revolution. Its nonsense. The internals of the game are the same for the Grizzlies as they are for the Warriors. Different styles of play? Of course. Did Memphis win with heart, "grit and grind" yesterday? Of course. But lets stop pretending that the Grizzlies and Warriors aren't part of the same milieu of successful teams.
You want to pretend the Grizzlies didn't get out on the fast break? Want to pretend that the Grizzlies don't have shooters at four of the five positions on the court (the only exception really being Tony Allen)? There is plenty of drama, suspense, rivalries, storylines, heart, and wonderment to be enjoyed without regressing into a Charles Barkley-esque dichotomy. This isn't about analytics, data, or prediction of who wins. You want to talk about Conley's masked game as opposed to concepts like pace-and-space but you're the one who brought it up in the first place. This isn't about the soul of the game. This is about the lionhearted Grizzlies trying to tear down the NBA's Goliath.
personally, i don't view the general concepts of "pace and space" in a pejorative manner. it's absolutely not my preferred style of play, but it can certainly yield tremendous results with the right personnel. admittedly, i use the word "pace" pejoratively with respect to the kings' stated desire to mold their roster to a particular style of play, because i don't believe that the kings' most talented players are best-suited to play uptempo basketball, and it is my belief that you build a team around the skillsets of your most talented players, rather than attempt to shoehorn those players into a particular kind of system just because you like it. if i'm the gm of the warriors, for example, i don't try and turn my team into a slow-it-down, grind-it-out, pound-em-in-the-post kinda team just because it's the style of play that happens to be most pleasing to me. the personnel dictates otherwise, and it's a fool who doesn't do his best to maximize the upper-tier talent available on a given roster...
as for my assertion that this series feels like a battle for the soul of the nba, that's the narrative that i am choosing to place around the western conference semi-finals, and it comes from my emotional connection to the game. nobody has to agree. it wouldn't bother me if nobody agrees. it's a feeling, after all; it's mine. it doesn't have to be yours, laughable as it may be to you. i don't see the grizzlies as the last rebel holdout against the revolution, by the way, but i do see them as representative of a style of play that is viewed as archaic in many analytics-based circles, a view that is, in my opinion, just as corrosive as any blanket condemnations of the "pace and space" movement. when the daryl morey's of the world find a strange glee in taunting those who may not consider analytics to be the holy grail of roster-building, i'd say there is a distinct tension over what constitutes "the right way to play." to me, this series is a microcosm of that tension...
again, you're free to disagree, but it hardly seems like a stretch on my part to suggest that nba franchises gravitate to trends based on the perception of their championship viability. if the warriors somehow manage to lose to the grizzlies, it obviously won't convince the entire nba landscape to adopt a "grit and grind" style, but i have to imagine that it would get more than a few people thinking about how best to approach roster-building as the initial infatuation with "pace and space" subsides, and as defenses continue to adapt...
Padrino
All-Star
the bolded portion is certainly representative of my view, given the developments we witnessed in the kings' decision-making process throughout this last season...
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
I didn't expect to see Mike Conley back but now that he's back and still capable of performing well considering his circumstances, this will be a fun series with the new school versus the old school type of playing styles. Not many teams in the league play half court anymore so let's see if which style prevails to the promised land.
PurpleHaze
All-Star
I'm not sure I agree with, "not many teams play half court anymore." The team that won NBA championship last season still does it that way and forced their style on opposition to win 5 championships in last 15 years. Most EC team play half court walk it up more than wide-open fast pace. I don't see this so-called new style as anything new at all. I watched ABA (original Dr J league) and it was 100% fast paced. It was NBA who co-opted ABA style in many ways - including finally adopting 3 pt FG. Nothing new here at all in 2015 playoffs as Memphis is just being smart, playing style than fits their dominant inside presence, overall defense mindset. And as others have said Vivek needs to take note or he damn well better.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
teams more than ever are relying on the three point shot instead of the old fashioned grind it out in the post type offense I was used to seeing in the early 2000's....that to me is the definition of new school basketball or you can just call it the game evolving to what it is and having a wide array of amazing shooters like we've never seen before. What Vivek needs to do is let the basketball people make basketball decisions and then and only then will the Kings maybe one day be in the playoffs again with number 15 leading the way.
If Houston can't beat the Clippers without Chris Paul... 
At this rate, Memphis is the only thing standing between either Blake Griffin (ugh) or Wardell II (UGH!) advancing to the NBA Finals. So, I said it in the first post, and I'll say it again:
At this rate, Memphis is the only thing standing between either Blake Griffin (ugh) or Wardell II (UGH!) advancing to the NBA Finals. So, I said it in the first post, and I'll say it again:
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