Michael Jordan Hall of Fame - SHAME!

[Widowmaker2k]

I can see how someone can think that there was somebody was better than Jordan; I'm undecided on the subject myself. But, honestly, there are only four other guys (Russell, Chamberlain, Robertson, Johnson) that even deserve to be in the conversation.


Some of us do not consider this a virtue.

I agree with this, though I might also include KAJ, for longevity's sake (I mean hell, he was an all star 19 times, talk about a cornerstone to build a team around).

 

[Gargamel]

In the second place, I am disinclined to call anybody the greatest player ever when you could make the case that they aren't even the greatest player to play their position.

If there were really point(s) greater than Magic was (strong devil's advocate), then he wouldn't rank high enough to be in the discussion by default.

The points (and centers for sure) have more competition at their positions than the 2s. Jordan's chief competition isn't even retired yet. It's him, West, who wasn't an exclusive 2, and Kobe. After that, a steep drop.

 

[Gargamel]

While it was only one game it was still a championship game. Would he do it for a whole season, of course not. But he could do it in a pinch. You'd never see Diaw in that spot, nor do I suspect you'd see many others make the jump from 1 to 5 at such a high level. I won't knock his defense because his teams were an offensive highlight reel.

I have no doubt Magic could've played high level ball from 1 to 3 for an entire season, he's just not the type that fit a defined role, his game would look the same at any spot. He technically shared the 2 spot with Nixon for 4 yrs, they shared the duties of both guard positions until one of them subbed out. Interesting is that he was guarded by a wider array of players than even Jordan. There were some games where the PG, SG, and SF would all take a turn. He's not known for his athleticism, but he was too quick for a number of natural 3s.

His defense is exaggerated like his shooting was as a younger player. Some seem to remember him as Nash on D and Kwame from the perimeter. At worst, he was as average on D as Bird (who is seldom called out for it) and he was a decent shooter, not great.

I think Jordan is probably the best overall player of all time if I had to come up with one, but I also don't think he's as far away from Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Oscar, Russ, Shaq etc as he's portrayed. I've heard a few older players who refuse to put him over Magic, latest one being Gervin at the HOF. Additionally, players from the old days will always get shafted in comparison to modern players w/o mention of the advantages from which they've benefited. You don't ever hear The Babe downgraded in baseball talk, yet Mikan has become a complete afterthought. Some Laker kids actually think that West and Baylor would be average players today (barf).

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

If there were really point(s) greater than Magic was (strong devil's advocate), then he wouldn't rank high enough to be in the discussion by default.

Sorry Smurfer; I've got much respect for Johnson, but I can't be convinced, in a universe where there was an Oscar Robertson, who played his position, that he's hands down the best ever.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

His defense is exaggerated like his shooting was as a younger player. Some seem to remember him as Nash on D and Kwame from the perimeter. At worst, he was as average on D as Bird (who is seldom called out for it) and he was a decent shooter, not great.

I don't think Bird belongs in the GOAT discussion, either. And I didn't say he was bad, I said he was, at best, average relative to the other guys I named.

 

[Gargamel]

Sorry Smurfer; I've got much respect for Johnson, but I can't be convinced, in a universe where there was an Oscar Robertson, who played his position, that he's hands down the best ever.

No problem. There's not a catch-all metric that will definitively prove who's better than who. I feel the playoffs are a testing ground, which is why I still poo-poo Bron's "King" title. I don't like to definitively state that Player A would've done what Player B did do if this or that were equal. Oscar didn't have the teams, but it is what it is (e.g.: I assure you that no one but Kobe zealots give a rat's that he went to 7 games w/ Phx in 2006).

 

[Oprostaj]

No problem. There's not a catch-all metric that will definitively prove who's better than who. I feel the playoffs are a testing ground, which is why I still poo-poo Bron's "King" title. I don't like to definitively state that Player A would've done what Player B did do if this or that were equal. Oscar didn't have the teams, but it is what it is (e.g.: I assure you that no one but Kobe zealots give a rat's that he went to 7 games w/ Phx in 2006).

Not to totally switch gears here... and I'm not going to comment on the conversation since I'm too young and too inexperienced to give a valid opinion, but how much does a player have to exactly do to get to that "next" level in the playoffs. My question directly pertains to Garg's Lebron statement. I'm not a huge LBJ fan, and am not here to defend him, but this is the same guy that scored 25 points in a row vs a Pistons team that was much better than average in a time when he had to,and when NOBODY could do anything else. I remember watching the game, and his teammates would want nothing to do with the ball, almost like it was a bomb. I understand that Brown probably had a lot to do with that, and you don't go away from the hot hand, but Lebron has done a lot with little on that squad (last year nonwithstanding - still, they ran into a better TEAM, and Lebron did as much as he could, at least IMO), and I can't really fault him YET for not winning a title. His squad have not even been in the top 2-3 teams in the leauge, and he has basically carried them by himself.

I sort of thought the 25 point game was his "moment", a-la Jordan's 63, Magic's starting at C, so on, and so forth. He's also very young... and the whole "king" thing, which I don't agree with, was annointed upon him by the great idiots at ESPN along with every magazine ever since he was 15. Somehow, I don't think that people will appreciate him until he averages Oscar numbers... again, not fighting, arguing, just wondering.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Not to totally switch gears here... and I'm not going to comment on the conversation since I'm too young and too inexperienced to give a valid opinion, but how much does a player have to exactly do to get to that "next" level in the playoffs.

I can't answer for Gargy, but for the general public it appears that answer is to win championships. Multiple championships, preferably consecutive ones.

Part of Jordan going from human highlight reel to GOAT were the three-peats. Among the five players being discussed, three won five or more championships. The knock on the other two is that they didn't win enough, yet they both have rings.

Its the same in all the other sports. There are columnists who refuse to put Dan Marino in their top 10 lists because the Dolphins never won a title.

 

[Oprostaj]

I can't answer for Gargy, but for the general public it appears that answer is to win championships. Multiple championships, preferably consecutive ones.

Part of Jordan going from human highlight reel to GOAT were the three-peats. Among the five players being discussed, three won five or more championships. The knock on the other two is that they didn't win enough, yet they both have rings.

Its the same in all the other sports. There are columnists who refuse to put Dan Marino in their top 10 lists because the Dolphins never won a title.

Agreed, but personally, I thought it has to be above human, single handed performances - for example, Jordan's insane scoring numbers, numerous game winning shots - he had the accolades, but didn't win the championships until he had a very good team around him. ( I don't care what you say, anytime you have another top 50 player who is widely recognized as one of the best defenders you got yourself a top notch sidekick) For example, Horry's got a ton of rings but was never "the" man. Kerr too... I sort of feel like Lebron's at that stage, and it's sort of too early to call. He's had great moments, single handedly carried that team (short of Boobie exploding a couple of years ago, I don't really know any of his teammates that have shown up to be reliable in the playoffs)and has been the best player on O or D every game he has played. Not one player has been able to single handedly bring a championship to a team - I always figured that was a crappy way to judge a player. It should be considered, but not the focal point.