Luka Doncic (the 'LET'S RE-LITIGATE THE PICK UNTO PERPETUITY~!' thread)
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They literally scored on him once from wha I ca remember and he got a stop the next time lol they weren’t searching him out.
23-7-5 the last month for a 19 year old isn’t enough for you he’ll need to do that while winning DPOY
Question how do you feel about Curry, Harden, Irving, Towns, Beal, Booker, Lebron (non playoffs), Lillard, and Kemba? I’d like to know since you want a rookie to be a 2 way player surely you’d expect that from vets
23-7-5 the last month for a 19 year old isn’t enough for you he’ll need to do that while winning DPOY
Question how do you feel about Curry, Harden, Irving, Towns, Beal, Booker, Lebron (non playoffs), Lillard, and Kemba? I’d like to know since you want a rookie to be a 2 way player surely you’d expect that from vets
This manhunt of a 19 year old rookie is getting ridiculous. Can you imagine holding other rookies to these same standards? Other rookies that are nowhere near the value and production Luka already brings.
You want facts? The fact is that even if Doncic magically stops developing at the age of 19, many of these high drafted rookies would still have to develope multiple, multiple steps in order to bring the same value and production Luka is providing now at the age of 19.
Defense is not one of Lukas best qualities, thats clear and no one is disagreing with that. You have to remember with your critisism that he is playing a role/position that is absolutely the most valuable in basketball, ball handling offensive creator. His production and value on offense absolutely trumps his lack of value on defense. Also he is not a complete bum on defense. He lacks athletisism but hes extremely smart and a good rebounder. Per espn his offensive RPM is 2.58 defensive RPM is -0.54 and RPM is 2.04. Thats outstanding for a 19year old rookie playing the most valuable and difficult position. Per basketball reference, his OBPM is 2.6, DBPM is 0.6, BPM 3,2 and VORP 1,8. Just ridiculous.
Him becoming a great player doesnt require him to become a great or a good defender. The most important thing for him is offense. He can be a Harden/Lillard ect type of liability on defense and still be an extremely valuable player. Wether he is even Harden/Lillars level player now, I dont know and dont really care since hes only 19 and a rookie. Like them or not but his advanced numbers tell that his team isnt getting killed by his defense when hes on the court.
You want facts? The fact is that even if Doncic magically stops developing at the age of 19, many of these high drafted rookies would still have to develope multiple, multiple steps in order to bring the same value and production Luka is providing now at the age of 19.
Defense is not one of Lukas best qualities, thats clear and no one is disagreing with that. You have to remember with your critisism that he is playing a role/position that is absolutely the most valuable in basketball, ball handling offensive creator. His production and value on offense absolutely trumps his lack of value on defense. Also he is not a complete bum on defense. He lacks athletisism but hes extremely smart and a good rebounder. Per espn his offensive RPM is 2.58 defensive RPM is -0.54 and RPM is 2.04. Thats outstanding for a 19year old rookie playing the most valuable and difficult position. Per basketball reference, his OBPM is 2.6, DBPM is 0.6, BPM 3,2 and VORP 1,8. Just ridiculous.
Him becoming a great player doesnt require him to become a great or a good defender. The most important thing for him is offense. He can be a Harden/Lillard ect type of liability on defense and still be an extremely valuable player. Wether he is even Harden/Lillars level player now, I dont know and dont really care since hes only 19 and a rookie. Like them or not but his advanced numbers tell that his team isnt getting killed by his defense when hes on the court.
Hardly a man hunt when I have said he is and should be Rookie of the year. I’m just questioning whether he is already or guarenteed to be a superstar as many here believe.
As for his defense rebounding his numbers yes they are good but also somewhat inflated by his positioning in the court. His opponent shooting percentage is poor and opponents take a lot of shots at the rim against him.
As for his defense rebounding his numbers yes they are good but also somewhat inflated by his positioning in the court. His opponent shooting percentage is poor and opponents take a lot of shots at the rim against him.
Do you just hate Doncic or hate people calling him a potential superstar?
If you hate people calling him a potential superstar in the Doncic thread how do you feel about people calling guys on the Kings potential All Stars? Someone yesterday on this site said Kings have potentially 5 All stars on this team in Buddy, Bagley, Hield, Fox and Bogs. Do you question when people anoint our unproven players all stars?
For what it’s worth put me in the pre draft category of a non Doncic believer. I was wrong, it’s ok to be wrong
If you hate people calling him a potential superstar in the Doncic thread how do you feel about people calling guys on the Kings potential All Stars? Someone yesterday on this site said Kings have potentially 5 All stars on this team in Buddy, Bagley, Hield, Fox and Bogs. Do you question when people anoint our unproven players all stars?
For what it’s worth put me in the pre draft category of a non Doncic believer. I was wrong, it’s ok to be wrong
If you also spent this much energy finding flaws on the other rookies drafted high like Ayton, Bagley, Young ect, you could make them look really bad.
And I say it again: advanced statistics suggest that Mavs arent getting killed defensively while Luka is on the court. How accurate those advanced metrics are is hard to say but they quite often identify very bad defenders like IT with the Celtics.
He is 19. When people are predicting that he will become a star in this league, they have a very legit case. Hes having the type of season that makes that prediction very easy to make. Its a prediction but its a very educated prediction when a 19 year old guy playing the most valuable role/position is performing the way he is.
And obviously when this is the case, people will start (or continue) to question our decision to pass on him. You previously talked about facts, well wether you like it or not, the fact is that based on what we know and what we've seen, Luka was easily the best player on the draft and its not even close to being close. Thats a fact. That fact could possibly change in two or three years if something huge happens, but.. At this moment if we are making an educated guess on who is and will be the most valuable player in this draft class, its Luka. Its very difficult to argue otherwise and thats just how it is.
Getting provoked by people pointing that out is just a waste of energy because as I said, they have a very legit case that they are arguing. Just because "well we can only tell after three years" (or whatever the old and tired argument is) doesnt mean people cant make educated predictions and evaluations.
And I say it again: advanced statistics suggest that Mavs arent getting killed defensively while Luka is on the court. How accurate those advanced metrics are is hard to say but they quite often identify very bad defenders like IT with the Celtics.
He is 19. When people are predicting that he will become a star in this league, they have a very legit case. Hes having the type of season that makes that prediction very easy to make. Its a prediction but its a very educated prediction when a 19 year old guy playing the most valuable role/position is performing the way he is.
And obviously when this is the case, people will start (or continue) to question our decision to pass on him. You previously talked about facts, well wether you like it or not, the fact is that based on what we know and what we've seen, Luka was easily the best player on the draft and its not even close to being close. Thats a fact. That fact could possibly change in two or three years if something huge happens, but.. At this moment if we are making an educated guess on who is and will be the most valuable player in this draft class, its Luka. Its very difficult to argue otherwise and thats just how it is.
Getting provoked by people pointing that out is just a waste of energy because as I said, they have a very legit case that they are arguing. Just because "well we can only tell after three years" (or whatever the old and tired argument is) doesnt mean people cant make educated predictions and evaluations.
What will be interesting to track with Doncic as his career progresses is what kind of team must be built around him. Is he a plug-and-play kind of talent, who will eventually carry his team to the playoffs no matter the roster, no matter the coach? Or is he the center of gravity for a team that needs to eschew certain types of players and acquire others in order to maximize Doncic's usage? I ask in earnest. I don't yet know the answer (and I am suspicious of any who claims that a half-season with the Mavs is enough to offer a definitive answer on the subject).
That said, there were many around these parts who saw Demarcus Cousins as a deeply imperfect star talent, in part because it was rather difficult to build around him. I was more enthusiastic about DMC than many, but even I was prepared for him to be traded at the end of his tenure in Sacramento, as the Kings had wasted several years of his prime by failing to build around him. I think Luka Doncic is going to be very, very good. But is he in the right situation in Dallas? Will they be able to effectively build around him?
With no 2019 first rounder, and only a flailing Dennis Smith Jr. among their worthwhile non-Doncic assets, 2019 free agency is going to be HUGE for that squad. Can Mark Cuban convince any of the big fish to come play with Luka? He is as close to a "win now" rookie as you're ever going to find in the modern NBA, which is both a blessing and a curse. It makes it more difficult to rely on the yield of draft picks that ordinarily comes from multiple seasons spent in the basement as young talent develops (and I think coughing up their first rounder this year in order to acquire Doncic is really going to sting in the long run).
That said, there were many around these parts who saw Demarcus Cousins as a deeply imperfect star talent, in part because it was rather difficult to build around him. I was more enthusiastic about DMC than many, but even I was prepared for him to be traded at the end of his tenure in Sacramento, as the Kings had wasted several years of his prime by failing to build around him. I think Luka Doncic is going to be very, very good. But is he in the right situation in Dallas? Will they be able to effectively build around him?
With no 2019 first rounder, and only a flailing Dennis Smith Jr. among their worthwhile non-Doncic assets, 2019 free agency is going to be HUGE for that squad. Can Mark Cuban convince any of the big fish to come play with Luka? He is as close to a "win now" rookie as you're ever going to find in the modern NBA, which is both a blessing and a curse. It makes it more difficult to rely on the yield of draft picks that ordinarily comes from multiple seasons spent in the basement as young talent develops (and I think coughing up their first rounder this year in order to acquire Doncic is really going to sting in the long run).
There is some truth to this statement. My rebuttal would be that there's nobody on KingsFans.com creating posts to suggest that the Kings front office should be fired because they didn't draft Trae Young, et cetera, so of course there aren't going to be people disposed to doing that.
One of the things about fandom which I've noticed more and more since I stopped rooting for teams is that fans tend to be super-defensive when the establishment is questioned, especially so when the team is doing well. But, I don't necessarily see that as an unreasonable sentiment to have: this is the best season that the Kings have had in over a decade, by far. And while most of the people here are trying to get their life to what's happening with the Kings right now, there remains this very vocal minority that stays on some, "But we could have had Doncic, tho," which is reasonably going to lead some fans to be like, "Man, why can't you get off that, and enjoy this **** with the rest of us?"
It's kind of become a snake eating its own tail, at this point: we've had people in this thread explain that part of the reason why they stay on this, like a dog with a bone, is because they were so put off by the criticism of Doncic before and during the draft process, that they've taken it personally, and they're just not going to let it go until everybody who said something negative about Doncic "eats their words," so to speak, and admits that they were wrong in their assessments of him, and give him one hundred percent of the credit they feel like he deserves. Meanwhile, on the other side, some people appear to have become so offended by the constant demands to "give credit," that they've dug their feet in, and not only resolved to refuse to yield, but have made it their personal mission to make sure that everyone can see the clay on their feet.
Another mitigating factor, from my point of view is that there seems to be a vocal minority for whom anything that isn't unqualified praise of Doncic is perceived as bashing, or hating: stipulate that Doncic is great on offense, but not on defense, and you're hating. Stipulate that he's already a star, but that his potential to get better might not be unlimited, and you're hating. On the other hand, some people actually do seem so indignant about the praise for Doncic that they appear to be overcorrecting, on some, "He ain't really that fine, anyway!"-type stuff: Doncic goes for 27/9/8, and we hear, "But they lost." Doncic hits a game-winner, and we hear, "But that defense, tho." Both sides have demonstrated that they ain't got no backdown in them, and so the rest of us get to watch them go around and around, ad infinitum.
It would be nice if the people who want to be ride-or-die for the Kings could just enjoy the team's success, and the people who want to root for Doncic could just get their lives to Doncic's rookie season, without the two factions antagonizing each other, but it seems clear that there's fat chance of that happening.
One of the things about fandom which I've noticed more and more since I stopped rooting for teams is that fans tend to be super-defensive when the establishment is questioned, especially so when the team is doing well. But, I don't necessarily see that as an unreasonable sentiment to have: this is the best season that the Kings have had in over a decade, by far. And while most of the people here are trying to get their life to what's happening with the Kings right now, there remains this very vocal minority that stays on some, "But we could have had Doncic, tho," which is reasonably going to lead some fans to be like, "Man, why can't you get off that, and enjoy this **** with the rest of us?"
It's kind of become a snake eating its own tail, at this point: we've had people in this thread explain that part of the reason why they stay on this, like a dog with a bone, is because they were so put off by the criticism of Doncic before and during the draft process, that they've taken it personally, and they're just not going to let it go until everybody who said something negative about Doncic "eats their words," so to speak, and admits that they were wrong in their assessments of him, and give him one hundred percent of the credit they feel like he deserves. Meanwhile, on the other side, some people appear to have become so offended by the constant demands to "give credit," that they've dug their feet in, and not only resolved to refuse to yield, but have made it their personal mission to make sure that everyone can see the clay on their feet.
Another mitigating factor, from my point of view is that there seems to be a vocal minority for whom anything that isn't unqualified praise of Doncic is perceived as bashing, or hating: stipulate that Doncic is great on offense, but not on defense, and you're hating. Stipulate that he's already a star, but that his potential to get better might not be unlimited, and you're hating. On the other hand, some people actually do seem so indignant about the praise for Doncic that they appear to be overcorrecting, on some, "He ain't really that fine, anyway!"-type stuff: Doncic goes for 27/9/8, and we hear, "But they lost." Doncic hits a game-winner, and we hear, "But that defense, tho." Both sides have demonstrated that they ain't got no backdown in them, and so the rest of us get to watch them go around and around, ad infinitum.
It would be nice if the people who want to be ride-or-die for the Kings could just enjoy the team's success, and the people who want to root for Doncic could just get their lives to Doncic's rookie season, without the two factions antagonizing each other, but it seems clear that there's fat chance of that happening.
Thats true but I didnt say that every rookie should be criticized as harshly. I wouldnt criticise any of them like for example sactowndog is criticizing Doncic and that was my point. All of them are rookies and rookies usually dont contribute to winning basketball. Most of the time in order to evaluate them you need to look for other things than their direct effect on winning. Fox is a good example. Per advanced metrics (rpm, vorp ect) he was one of the worst players in the league and didnt contribute to winning at all. Thats often the case with rookie ball handling creators.
Thats true. I just think that these defensive responses doesnt need to exsist in this thread. If this thread is just about Luka, then ideally the conversation here should be objective and these "man why cant you just enjoy......" responses should not belong here. Same goes for "pro Luka" crowd of course. No one should get offended if someone simply points out that atm Luka is a below average perimeter defender, then yeah thats a valid point and hard to disagree or discuss about. If someone uses it as an argument on why its ridiculous that someone thinks Luka looks like that he will become a star, then thats a conversation.
Its a different case if someone opens a thread on Kings Rap about stuff like how Luka is so much better than Bagley. In that type of situation defensive reactions are both expected and imo allowed.
I'm not sure on how many people you categorize to these two extremes so hard to say anything about that. People who want to be "ride or die Kings" and want to shut off as much negative stuff as possible can totally do that, they dont have to read this thread and they dont have to come to this thread and be really defensive about it.
I guess my two big points on this whole Luka conversation is that a) Me and a lot of others thought even before draft that he is easily the best player of the draft. There were a lot of good discussions on positional value and the value of certain skillsets ect. Lot of us were very dissapointed that we passed on him and those types of situations create a lot of discussions, especially when the guy is performing like hes on a level of his own compared to his draft class.
And b) I understand that defensive reactions are normal. I just dont like the idea that its justified to just trying to twist things so that it would fit ones own fandom better. At least I wouldnt justify it in a thread that is dedicated to Luka. Even if one just wants to have more positive experience as a fan and that person comes to a thread like this only to criticize a guy who in reality is head and shoulders above anyone else in his draft class, then hes going generate a lot of counter arguments with his actions.
Edit: Im not trying to dictate what can be said and what cannot. If someone posts in this thread something I disagree with, I'm perfectly willing to have that conversation
Thats true. I just think that these defensive responses doesnt need to exsist in this thread. If this thread is just about Luka, then ideally the conversation here should be objective and these "man why cant you just enjoy......" responses should not belong here. Same goes for "pro Luka" crowd of course. No one should get offended if someone simply points out that atm Luka is a below average perimeter defender, then yeah thats a valid point and hard to disagree or discuss about. If someone uses it as an argument on why its ridiculous that someone thinks Luka looks like that he will become a star, then thats a conversation.
Its a different case if someone opens a thread on Kings Rap about stuff like how Luka is so much better than Bagley. In that type of situation defensive reactions are both expected and imo allowed.
I'm not sure on how many people you categorize to these two extremes so hard to say anything about that. People who want to be "ride or die Kings" and want to shut off as much negative stuff as possible can totally do that, they dont have to read this thread and they dont have to come to this thread and be really defensive about it.
I guess my two big points on this whole Luka conversation is that a) Me and a lot of others thought even before draft that he is easily the best player of the draft. There were a lot of good discussions on positional value and the value of certain skillsets ect. Lot of us were very dissapointed that we passed on him and those types of situations create a lot of discussions, especially when the guy is performing like hes on a level of his own compared to his draft class.
And b) I understand that defensive reactions are normal. I just dont like the idea that its justified to just trying to twist things so that it would fit ones own fandom better. At least I wouldnt justify it in a thread that is dedicated to Luka. Even if one just wants to have more positive experience as a fan and that person comes to a thread like this only to criticize a guy who in reality is head and shoulders above anyone else in his draft class, then hes going generate a lot of counter arguments with his actions.
Edit: Im not trying to dictate what can be said and what cannot. If someone posts in this thread something I disagree with, I'm perfectly willing to have that conversation
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No, you're really not. Do you not honestly understand that you're putting Luka up on a pedestal so high that you're begging people to find reasons to knock him down? You continually point out the good in Doncic (and there is a lot) but bristle any time anyone brings up his failings (and there are a few). Give the kid a break, dude. You'd have a lot fewer people arguing with you if you would at least acknowledge his areas for improvement without immediately going totally on the defensive. HE'S NOT PERFECT. He is going to be targeted more and more by the rest of the West and it will be very interesting to see how he adapts his game.
I don't know about anyone else but I'm more interested in his ability to adapt than I am in just pure statistics.
I don't know about anyone else but I'm more interested in his ability to adapt than I am in just pure statistics.
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