Looking forward past 2019 (split)

#31
Vlade Divac
George Hill
Bobby Jackson
Kosta Koufos
Jim Jackson
Keon Clark
Scot Pollard
Anthony Peeler

Those are the best free agent signings in the last 25 years that I can think of off the top of my head. We can basically guarantee that a franchise player will never up and sign with the Kings for any reason at all and they rarely hit free agency anyway.

If a franchise player winds up here it'll either be through the draft or through a lucky trade.
Most likely, yes, BUT......

You do not trade a guy like Bogie, who has a helluva upside, IMHO, and also is looking to be our best player in the near future, in order to land that player. You keep Bogie, and move other pieces around to make it happen. Bogie, as it currently stands, is shaping up to be one of those valuable pieces that you will want to have on your team once you make the playoffs. You don't let that kind of a guy go in order to take a chance at bringing in an unknown, and hope to find another "Bogie" down the road. What if we never see another Bogie again? Then what?
 
#33
Most likely, yes, BUT......

You do not trade a guy like Bogie, who has a helluva upside, IMHO, and also is looking to be our best player in the near future, in order to land that player. You keep Bogie, and move other pieces around to make it happen. Bogie, as it currently stands, is shaping up to be one of those valuable pieces that you will want to have on your team once you make the playoffs. You don't let that kind of a guy go in order to take a chance at bringing in an unknown, and hope to find another "Bogie" down the road. What if we never see another Bogie again? Then what?
I don't think anyone is really saying to trade him now. My hypothetical decision to move him is talking about 2-3 years from now, but let me ask you this...

Would you trade Bogdan Bogdanovic for Deandre Ayton?
 
#36
I don't think anyone is really saying to trade him now. My hypothetical decision to move him is talking about 2-3 years from now, but let me ask you this...

Would you trade Bogdan Bogdanovic for Deandre Ayton?
Yeah no question. And for Doncic too. I love Bogie, I think he can get to a Brad Beal/C.J McCollum type level and he's been one of the few bright-spots to actually watch this season. But I'll gladly take the 6 year younger prospect who legitimately has a chance to be one of the top 15 players in the league. Bogie just doesn't have the ceiling of a few prospects in this draft.
 
#38
Well, then I guess it looks like we will all have to agree to disagree. I am not gonna hold any grudges for standing on the other side. Nor do I expect anyone on the other side to do the same. I guess this why we have a forum to discuss these things. Everyone's always gonna have different viewpoints.

Currently, I just value Bogie more than I do a future draft pick. That's all. But I won't ask for the head(s) of anyone who begs to differ. Really, guys and gals, I won't :)
 

Entity

Hall of Famer
#39
id hate to lose bogie but with Buddy it softens the blow. we lose ball handling but with Ayton it would be worth it. be nice having both. of course would be nice having boogie with bogie as well
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#41
Every fanbase overrates their own player and I think there's a lot of emotional attachment with Kings fans...especially with Bogdan. I have a big feeling that it's because he reminds fans of Peja. I didn't hear Bucks fans call Malcom Brogdon their future franchise player, but I'm seeing a chunk of people who think that he is a 20+ppg scorer.
Compare their rookie numbers:

Malcom: 24 yearsold: 10.2pts/4.7asts/2.8rebs/1.1stls/1.5tos -----45.7/40.4/86.5

Bogdan: 25 yearsold: 11.7pts/3.4asts/2.9rebs/1.0stls/1.6tos -----45.4/39.3/85.4

Same with Fox who's been getting crowned our franchise player without earning the label. Neither guys are bluechip prospects, and that's exactly what the Kings need. We need a bluechip prospect to compete in the NBA.
I think you are overrating the emotional attachment angle in comparing with Peja.....I think some people think he's part of our "big 3". I happen to think that. I would suggest looking past the Bogie and Malcom stats comparison since Malcom is not one of the top options on that team while Bogie is closer to a top 3 guy on team full of inexperienced players while Malcom is playing with Giannis and Bledsoe. How would the Bogi numbers be with those 2 guys on our team?
 
#42
I think you are overrating the emotional attachment angle in comparing with Peja.....I think some people think he's part of our "big 3". I happen to think that. I would suggest looking past the Bogie and Malcom stats comparison since Malcom is not one of the top options on that team while Bogie is closer to a top 3 guy on team full of inexperienced players while Malcom is playing with Giannis and Bledsoe. How would the Bogi numbers be with those 2 guys on our team?
Lots of people have already compared his shooting to Peja...which only happens because both are European. Have you ever seen anyone compare Buddy's to Peja's?

I'm not sure why the talent around the players would be relevant. This is also is Malcom's rookie numbers where he was their 4th best player. Giannis+Middleton+Parker+Monroe. Parker missed the last 30 games. Are you saying Bogdan has a bigger load to carry? I only see about a 2pt increase.. or do you mean that the defense focuses more attention on Bogdan because he is one of our top 3 players? I don't know how correct that is considering that Malcom primarily played PG where he brought the ball up the floor on a lot of his possessions. PGs always get a ton of pressure and attention too.

Are you saying Bogdan's stats would be increased if he played on the Bucks? I don't know about this. Giannis is averaging 27ppg. Middleton 20ppg. Bledsoe 17ppg. Malcom 13ppg. I could see him taking up Malcom's role maybe. They also have Parker coming back from injury now. This just puts Bogdan into perspective. Bogdan would be the 4th best player on the 7th seed team in the East. I do think Bogdan can be your 3rd best player, but I've seen argument that say he should be our absolute best player, which I disagree with.

My entire point was that I think Kings fans heavily overvalues our own players. I just picked Brogdon as an example because they put up similar numbers in their rookie campaigns and they're about the same age.
 
#43
I know a lot of Kings fans (and possibly our front office which is unfortunate) would like to hold us to a specific timeline. Meaning we should be competitive by XYZ year. THIS LINE OF THINKING IS WRONG. There is a time to start making moves that may help improve the team immediately and there is a time to stay patient. Looking at the current state of the team, we should be staying patient.

Unfortunately, many of you have this thinking that we need to be good by next year so the pick that is conveyed into 2019 isn't super valuable. My response to that is why would we sacrifice our future, our potential, & our ceiling as a team just so that another team (in the eastern conference may I add) doesn't get a super high pick? It's ridiculous. The trade is over with and done. We need to focus on how we maximize our ceiling and not worry about how it might look to outsiders.

There are others that think we need to be good in the short term because they are tired of watching us lose. I will be the first one to say that I don't enjoy watching us being a bottom dweller but what would be even harder for me to watch and accept is a team who chooses a path that will help them win more in the short term while it limits their ability to be a real threat down the road. I want my team to be successful. I want my team to win. But most importantly, I want my team to be on a path that leads them to being a top team in this league.


Looking over the roster, does anyone feel confident that any of our players are future stars/superstars/franchise players? I don't, but when I look at guys like Simmons and Mitchell, I get a different feeling. Looking down the roster...
  • Fox hasn't had a bad rookie season but I also wouldn't say he's the savior of this franchise at this point
  • Mason hasn't shown to have franchise player potential as he approaches 24 years of age
  • Bogdanovic is not a dominating presence as he approaches 26 years of age.
  • Hield's a good shooter/scorer but there are a lot of good shooters/scorers in this league, but it doesn't mean they have franchise potential. His age, athleticism, ability to take his man off the dribble, and ability to make plays for his teammates limits him when it comes to having franchise player potential
  • Jackson hasn't shown much and looks to be a role player
  • Labissiere has tools but isn't close to putting it all together right now.
  • Giles is an unknown right now (hopeful unknown nonetheless)
  • Cauley-Stein hasn't shown to have franchise player potential and is already approaching 25

I will say that I'm most hopeful for Fox & Giles with Bogdanovic & Labissiere being long shots, but as it stands right now, I don't think we can be confident about any of these guys.

So what does that mean? We need to continue to put ourselves in a position to add players that have the potential to be franchise players that also align with others in our core. What is the best way to do that you may ask? The draft. So what can we do to set ourselves up to draft a player that has a good shot at becoming a franchise player?
  • Avoiding moves that help us win more when they don't help us in the long run (e.g., signing 30 year old veterans that would add more wins to our win total when they will not be around when the rest of our core hits their prime). This helps us keep our own wins down and thus net a better pick in the upcoming draft.
  • Making trades that send out cap space in exchange for bad contracts and pick(s)/asset(s). Sure, the picks may not be very high or the young player we get back might not have franchise player potential, but when packaged with other assets, they can help you move up in a draft to increase your odds of finding a franchise level player (e.g., #15 & #20 for #10).
Considering we don't have confidence that any of the young guys are franchise players in the making, we need to be of this mindset. Hield & Cauley-Stein are fine players, but the Kings #1 priority is finding multiple franchise level players to build around. With this draft being so deep, I'd probably trade those two for ~10 players entering this draft.

The Pros?
  1. Another shot at a franchise player
  2. Open up another roster spot for more flexibility in future trades
  3. Avoid bleeding talent by losing Cauley-Stein & Hield in free agency in 1-2 years
  4. Or if we resign them, avoid using our valuable cap space on serviceable players when we don't even know who our franchise players are at this point when that cap space can be used as an asset in trades to increase our odds at finding a franchise player
The Cons?
  1. We lose a couple serviceable players that can play a role on a good team.

If we had multiple franchise players on this team, keep the serviceable players to help build around them but we're not at that point yet. That's putting the cart before the horse.


So you've been reading this far and you're probably thinking so what's this know-it-all's plan? What would he do? Well I'll tell you.

2018 Offseason
I'm going to assume that Shumpert, Koufos, & Temple all opt in to their contracts since I don't see them getting more on the open market (but perhaps they do because they'd rather have a long term contract). If we remove Caboclo's qualifying offer but add in our 1st and 2nd round pick next year, we'd have ~$19 mil in cap space and 14 guaranteed contracts for the year. If we were to do a Cauley-Stein & Hield trade for another 1st round pick this year, we'd have ~$24.5 mil in cap space and 13 guaranteed contracts for the year.

I'd immediately be reaching out to other teams in regards to taking on bad contracts that expire after the 2019-20 season for pick compensation. If no takers, I'd give a veteran minimum, 1 year deal to a third string PG and sign Caboclo to a 3 year $6-7 mil deal with the 3rd year being a team option. He's a low risk, high reward type player who has a freakish, athletic profile & is still only 22.

Hard to say who we will draft with the picks really not knowing how the order will shake out so I won't play through that hypothetical.

2018-19 Trade Deadline
After signing Caboclo, the veteran minimum PG, our two 1st round picks, and our 2nd round pick, we'd have 15 guaranteed contracts with ~$20 mil in cap space still. Considering Randolph, Shumpert, Koufos, Temple, & the veteran minimum PG are all expiring, we have tons of flexibility if any team is wanting to unload a contract that expires after the 2019-20 season for pick/asset compensation.

Also, at this point, I'm checking in on the team. Are we confident that we have at least two franchise players in Fox, Bogdan, Labissiere, Giles, or our two 1st round picks? If not, I'm most likely starting to think about upcoming deals for Labissiere, Mason, & Bogdanovic considering they are all up for a new contract in 1.5 years. Bogdanovic would be the least likely in this case considering I'm confident in him being the 3rd-4th best player on a great team but if we don't have those 1st-3rd players in front of him, what's the point? We need franchise players to be a top team.

2019 Offseason
This offseason, we'd have Randolph, Shumpert, Koufos, Temple, & the PG we signed with the veteran minimum come off the books. We'd have 12 guaranteed contracts if we sign all three of our 2019 2nd round draft picks and would approximately have ~$65 mil in cap space.

Similar to last offseason, I'd be seeing if I can pull off a salary dump deal that unloads contracts that expire after the 2019-20 season (basically a trade that allows a team to sign any current free agents) while also getting pick/asset compensation. If not, I'd sign a few veterans to act as mentors on 1 year deals (who also aren't good enough to affect our record in the upcoming season), and I'd try to vary the size of the deal (e.g., one would be $5 mil, one would be $7 mil, and one would be $10 mil) so that it allows us more flexibility for future trades.

Again, I'm also reassessing the team to see where we are at with our franchise players. Have any emerged or are we still stuck with none at this point? If it's the latter, I'm looking at potentially moving Labissiere, Mason, and/or Bogdanovic for future assets.

2019-20 Trade Deadline
I'm reassessing the team once again. Have we found our franchise players yet? I'd hope by now we know that at least two of Fox, Bogdanovic, Labissiere, Giles, and two 2018 1st round draft picks are going to be those franchise players we need. If not, I'm pushing a little harder to move Labissiere, Mason, & Bogdanovic in trades considering they would be getting a new contract after this season.

However, let's just say we have a few players emerge here as our franchise players, what next? I'd probably look at trading Labissiere & Mason if I feel like they are going to demand too much in their contract next year and I already have adequate replacements for them. Bogdanovic I'd keep he's already a good players that is versatile. Otherwise, I'm sitting tight with the players we got and wait until the offseason.

2020 Offseason
Now that we have much more confidence in a couple of our guys becoming stars/franchise players, it's time to build around them.

I'm hoping that at this time Fox (if not one of the franchise players) is a good starting PG and that means we can let Mason go if he is going to be too expensive or if one of our 2nd round picks (one 2018 2nd, two 2019 2nds, three 2020 2nds) is showing they can easily handle the role on a very cheap deal. Labissiere (if not one of the franchise players) may be let go depending on how talented he is and who else we have at his position already via our future draft picks. Bogdanovic would likely be resigned considering he's a good/solid SG today (thinking around $18-22 mil a year). Caboclo would have a team option this year which could be waived if he never panned out.

After resigning Bogdanovic and potentially letting Labissiere, Mason, & Caboclo walk, we'd have 13 guaranteed contracts with ~$42 mil in cap space. The roster would look like this:

PG - Fox
SG - Bogdanovic
SF - Jackson
PF -
C - Giles
*Two 2018 1sts
*One 2018 2nd
*Two 2019 2nds
*One 2020 1st
*Three 2020 2nds

Again, this roster is the assumption that we weren't able to execute any salary dump trades for more assets (highly unlikely), that at least two of these players have shown to be franchise players already, and the if we are unable to sign anybody with $42 mil in cap space (highly unlikely since it's a team that has a couple up and coming franchise players and bunch of other young assets).
Great post! Id love to put you and a few other posters in a community GM role for the kings
 
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#45
No, not really. The point is to find franchise players first. Him mentoring young guys that aren’t that caliber of player is not a priority. I’d rather move him in hopes to get pick compensation back and to lower the win total to help give us a better shot at a franchise player.

If Bogdan becomes one, great! Keep him. If we have other young guys that are worthy of the title franchise player, great! Keep Bogdan. But if we’re sitting here in 2020 and we still have nobody on our roster who is that type of player, I have no issue dealing him in hopes of finding that player down the road. Hopefully it doesn’t come to that and we hit with these picks early.
Point is that franchise players also need quality supporting cast. Do you think Kings would have been a better team with Cousins if they had more guys like Bogdanovic?

The Kings need to accumulate assets (and yes that means young players as well) and hope to land a franchise level guy or two. They seem to be pretty confident on Fox and Giles. I am reluctant to believe the Giles hype but I can see how Fox can develop into an all-star type PG in 3-4 years time. That is one piece.

I happen to believe that Fox and Bogdanovic can be a back court that can for a part of a perennial contender that we can move forward with. We have two pieces in play to move forward with, now we need to make sure we keep addressing SF, PF and C. Ideally, we can find a franchise level guy at one of those position and all-star type at one of the other two. IMHO, and I could be wrong, ideally, you want perennial all-stars at PG-SF-C to nicely balance out the floor and at the other two positions, you want quality guys who are better than their production suggests. Players who are happy to play a role for their team even though their skill level suggest they could do more. For the Kings of early to mid 2000s, the two players who accepted lesser roles even though they could do a lot more were Christie and Divac while guys like Webber, Stojakovic and Bibby scored more points and got more of the accolades along the way.

I see Bogdanovic being one of those guys who can and are willing to take on one of those lesser roles to ensure the team gets better. Its actually hard to find those players these days. You can assemble the supporting cast before you get the franchise level player to make it all click. You don't have to get the franchise guy first and then put a team around him. Timberwolves had most of the pieces in place before they got Butler (granted they had known quantities in KAT, Wiggins and LaVine).

There is no reason why the Kings cannot keep accumulating good NBA talent and sort out the rest when they do get a franchise guy along the way. Those good NBA pieces the Kings accumulate along the way can be used to get a better fitting piece around the franchise player to move forward with. Kings traded JWill for Bibby and Williamson for Christie which propelled them to become a great team.

Some players just fit regardless of who your star players is and those players are just as hard to find and almost just as valuable. Bogdanovic is one of those guys.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#49
Here's my take on where I think this team can be and the model they should follow as its probably more attainable for most teams. I've been thinking this for awhile now. I'll use the Atlanta Hawks and Mike Budenholzer. I'll pick the 2014-15 team that went 60-22....and no, I'm not saying we are going to win 60 games anytime soon but look at the model. The big 3 on that team is probably Horford, Millsap and Teague....they averaged 15, 16 and 15 points. Supporting guys inKorver with 12 and Carroll with 12 and a 21 year old Schroeder averaged 10. Ages for those guys was 26-28 range except Korver at 33. None of these guys are superstars but the big 3 are certainly good.

For me, Fox is absolutely a guy who can be on par with Teague and then the big question is going to be is Giles who the Kings think he can be which would be similar to Horford.....none of us really have an idea but if he can be that type of guy that leaves the draft pick to be a Millsap type. Fill in with Bogi and Hield in the Korver role.

I mean we all think of Millsap as a damn good player and he averaged 16 points that year....it's because he does many things well. Bogi averaging 15-16 points is absolutely good enough because he makes the other players around him better. If Giles and draft pick guy are at the Bogi level, yeah, I think this team can make head way into competing for the playoffs sooner rather than 5 years from now.
 
#50
Here's my take on where I think this team can be and the model they should follow as its probably more attainable for most teams. I've been thinking this for awhile now. I'll use the Atlanta Hawks and Mike Budenholzer. I'll pick the 2014-15 team that went 60-22....and no, I'm not saying we are going to win 60 games anytime soon but look at the model. The big 3 on that team is probably Horford, Millsap and Teague....they averaged 15, 16 and 15 points. Supporting guys inKorver with 12 and Carroll with 12 and a 21 year old Schroeder averaged 10. Ages for those guys was 26-28 range except Korver at 33. None of these guys are superstars but the big 3 are certainly good.

For me, Fox is absolutely a guy who can be on par with Teague and then the big question is going to be is Giles who the Kings think he can be which would be similar to Horford.....none of us really have an idea but if he can be that type of guy that leaves the draft pick to be a Millsap type. Fill in with Bogi and Hield in the Korver role.

I mean we all think of Millsap as a damn good player and he averaged 16 points that year....it's because he does many things well. Bogi averaging 15-16 points is absolutely good enough because he makes the other players around him better. If Giles and draft pick guy are at the Bogi level, yeah, I think this team can make head way into competing for the playoffs sooner rather than 5 years from now.
The only problem I have with that approach is that at no stage, even when they won 60 games did the Hawks look like a genuine title contender. Good solid, perennial play off team but nothing more than that.

Kings can certainly adapt the system they ran BUT the talent needs to be better if we are ever going to be genuine contenders. All those players do many things well but are not outstanding at anything. That shows come play off time. Jacks of all trades but masters of none.