Letting Holmes walk.

So in Hoopshype Charlotte Rumors , sounds like Hornets might make a run with an offer sheet to Jarrett Allen. But Cleveland likely to match.
Was also rumored Charlotte Really likes Myles Turner.

If Charlotte spend a lot of time in FA with the above, if they succeed they would be out of the Holmes race
If they dont succeed , Maybe Holmes wont like being 3rd choice?
 
Jason Jones mentioned Kelly Olynk as a possible replacement for Holmes. I think Olynk is a better player than Holmes, especially on offense, is a bit longer and just as mobile on defense. So would go for that all day. $10m range.
 
Jason Jones mentioned Kelly Olynk as a possible replacement for Holmes. I think Olynk is a better player than Holmes, especially on offense, is a bit longer and just as mobile on defense. So would go for that all day. $10m range.
My goodness. No. Not even close. There is nothing KO does better than Holmes except shoot 3's - and, probably, pass - but he doesn't do either well enough nearly to overcome the relative shortfalls on the other fronts. He's not remotely as athletic as Holmes, generally, or as mobile, specifically. Not as good a rebounder or shot blocker, the former being an area where the Kings can't afford to lose ground. Holmes is also more than two years younger and very possibly still improving.
 
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My goodness. No. Not even close. There is nothing KO does better than Holmes except shoot 3's - and, probably, pass - but he doesn't do either well enough nearly to overcome the relative shortfalls on the other fronts. He's not remotely as athletic as Holmes, generally, or as mobile, specifically. Not as good a rebounder or shot blocker, the former being an area where the Kings can't afford to lose ground. Holmes is also more than two years younger and very possibly still improving.
Choose your stat. Per 36 is the fairest. Then advanced.

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...olmeri01&player_id1=olynyke01&sum=0&request=1
 
Jason Jones mentioned Kelly Olynk as a possible replacement for Holmes. I think Olynk is a better player than Holmes, especially on offense, is a bit longer and just as mobile on defense. So would go for that all day. $10m range.
I was thinking about him the other day. I would definitely like to see him on the Kings next season.
 
I dont get the rush for people here wanting get rid of good contributing players who are legitimate nba quality players in favor of cheap players who, for the most part, dont belong in a rotation for a legitimate playoff team. We are the only fanbase that gets excited for players like eric Moreland making the roster. We need to recognize that 99% of the projects you draft won't turn into Isaiah Thomas (who we were also happy to lets walk and he turned out the be an all star and even mvp candidate one season). We need to hold onto solid nba level contributors and flip those with minimal to no contribution. Its all well and good to have projects on the bench, but the whole bench can be msde of projects. Thats why the moves that monte made at the deadline for harkless, DW an TD were, in hindsight, quite good. Getting cheap nba level talent for players that either were no longer contributing of future players (drafts) that were unlikely to be real contributors. Sorry to say even Harry giles seems to be in the not a real contributor on a good team kinda guy but we were all broken up over his departure (even me). Thats why our bench has been trash for years (especially this year). So, no we should not let holmes walk and replace him with the broken down husk of a cheap guy about to flushbout of the league. He will be gritty and endearing and we will love him, but wont benefit towards the team winning and we will wonder why.
except Delon adds 6.5M more than if you waived CoJo to our cap. I’m not completely sure if those dollars could have been used to sign Holmes but I suspect they could have.
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
except Delon adds 6.5M more than if you waived CoJo to our cap. I’m not completely sure if those dollars could have been used to sign Holmes but I suspect they could have.
Basically, if you cut everybody and relinquish rights on everybody, then yes. Otherwise, no.

So the question is this: You can have one of two things, which do you prefer?

A) Richaun Holmes at $15M per year

B) Delon Wright + opportunity to sign Holmes at about 4y/$47M (if he takes it) + your choice among (some or all): Metu ($1.8M), Jones ($2.0M), James ($1.8M), Davis (RFA).

Pick your poison. B seems better to me.
 
except Delon adds 6.5M more than if you waived CoJo to our cap. I’m not completely sure if those dollars could have been used to sign Holmes but I suspect they could have.
The difference though is that delon wright actually contributed to winning games in a way cojo never did. He can be a pressure release valve for Hali and Fox (and in last few weeks of the season, for buddy) that cojo wasnt. He can initiate run the offense, he is a legitimate scoring threat and is a strong defender (which cojo was slipping at in a big way despite it being his calling card). Both TD and Wright actually won games for the kings when Hali and Fox and Barnes went down. And they had the kingsnin contention for the play in until the last 2 games of the season. They are the kind of players you need. Now it may become a problem in signing holmes, but at this point it is done. Was probably a good move irrespective.
 
Basically, if you cut everybody and relinquish rights on everybody, then yes. Otherwise, no.

So the question is this: You can have one of two things, which do you prefer?

A) Richaun Holmes at $15M per year

B) Delon Wright + opportunity to sign Holmes at about 4y/$47M (if he takes it) + your choice among (some or all): Metu ($1.8M), Jones ($2.0M), James ($1.8M), Davis (RFA).

Pick your poison. B seems better to me.
So if I cut CoJo and took his salary where does that put me cap wise in terms of resigning Richaun and why do I have to renounce the rest?
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
So if I cut CoJo and took his salary where does that put me cap wise in terms of resigning Richaun and why do I have to renounce the rest?
That is already assuming you cut CoJo and had to pay the guaranteed portion of his money next season. You have to cut the others to get to $15M under the cap to spend the money on Holmes. You have to renounce the cap holds of your own free agents because that goes against the salary cap. Of course, I forgot about roster charges, so clearing all that salary only gets yo to the ability to sign Holmes at about $13M starting, not $15M.

The bottom line is that, in a vacuum, no, Wright's additional salary next year isn't hindering our ability to sign Holmes. With Barnes and Buddy and Fox's money kicking in, it was always going to be difficult for us to get much breathing room under the cap.
 
Here are the bigs on that 2001 to 2002:

C: Vlade, Polllard, Keon Clark
PF: Cwebb, Funderburke

Where would Holmes fit in on that roster? He's not starting ahead of Vlade or Cwebb. He's not playing ahead of Pollard. He'd be competing for time with Clark and Funderburke.
I’m so lost as to why we are comparing Holmes to Funderburke. I understand the original premise to think through relative worth. However, not only a per 36 stat is flawed for many of the reasons laid out (performance is not necessarily linear to minutes played, never mind the fact that a bench player generally plays against an opponents second string AND when the coach sees favorable matchups), but comparing per 36 from a player 20 years ago has almost no meaning.
 
Jason Jones mentioned Kelly Olynk as a possible replacement for Holmes. I think Olynk is a better player than Holmes, especially on offense, is a bit longer and just as mobile on defense. So would go for that all day. $10m range.
Kelly O is actually really good as a spacer/passer and has been underrated on D is whole career. He's not Holmes, but he'd be a pretty good replacement to get 80-90% of his impact.

I'd love a world where we could get Holmes on his early bird rights and sign Kelly O for the MLE. Perfect 3rd big who can play both the 4 and the 5 and be fit with Bagley and Holmes
 
I’m so lost as to why we are comparing Holmes to Funderburke. I understand the original premise to think through relative worth. However, not only a per 36 stat is flawed for many of the reasons laid out (performance is not necessarily linear to minutes played, never mind the fact that a bench player generally plays against an opponents second string AND when the coach sees favorable matchups), but comparing per 36 from a player 20 years ago has almost no meaning.
It’s the only apples to apples comparison. Otherwise, we’d be narrowing the parameters to age, years when they played similar minutes, etc.

That said, I’d rather not go into the weeds. Neither are/were elite bigs. I know Kings fans fall in love with gritty over achievers, but Holmes is easily replaceable. Bogi is a better player and the Kings let him walk. If Holmes gets more than $10m, let him walk as well.
 
That is already assuming you cut CoJo and had to pay the guaranteed portion of his money next season. You have to cut the others to get to $15M under the cap to spend the money on Holmes. You have to renounce the cap holds of your own free agents because that goes against the salary cap. Of course, I forgot about roster charges, so clearing all that salary only gets yo to the ability to sign Holmes at about $13M starting, not $15M.

The bottom line is that, in a vacuum, no, Wright's additional salary next year isn't hindering our ability to sign Holmes. With Barnes and Buddy and Fox's money kicking in, it was always going to be difficult for us to get much breathing room under the cap.
so why does having the money help?
 
It’s the only apples to apples comparison. Otherwise, we’d be narrowing the parameters to age, years when they played similar minutes, etc.

That said, I’d rather not go into the weeds. Neither are/were elite bigs. I know Kings fans fall in love with gritty over achievers, but Holmes is easily replaceable. Bogi is a better player and the Kings let him walk. If Holmes gets more than $10m, let him walk as well.
letting them both walk for nothing is/was a mistake.
 
What in the world kind of question is this?
sorry let me elaborate....

you stated that currently we could sign Holmes and not renounce free agents. I am not sure if Delon’s money put us over a cap number where other rules come into play and it’s smarter to operate as an over the cap team. Or if the rules are the same and Delon’s money could have been used differently to sign Holmes and/or TD.
 
With his early bird rights, we can sign him to a contract starting around $10 million regardless of the cap. To sign him to more, we would need the cap space.
right what isn’t clear is can you use the early bird plus any cap space or if available cap space is $10M or less you are capped the early bird amount?

curious also if we didn’t have Delon and cut CoJo could we have signed TD with that cap space then signed Delon with early bird money?
 

Capt. Factorial

This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Things
Staff member
you stated that currently we could sign Holmes and not renounce free agents. I am not sure if Delon’s money put us over a cap number where other rules come into play and it’s smarter to operate as an over the cap team. Or if the rules are the same and Delon’s money could have been used differently to sign Holmes and/or TD.
In order to sign any player you have to either have salary cap room, or you need to use an exception. The exception that we could use to sign Holmes that would provide salary that we expect is at least close to the salary Holmes will command is the Early Bird exception, which applies to only our own players, and only players who have been with the team for two years. The Early Bird exception, in Holmes' case, could be worth as much as about 4y/$47M. Even if we had kept CoJo instead of trading for Delon, we could not have offered Holmes more than that without renouncing free agents (all of them), because we still would not have had enough cap room to provide any value above and beyond the Early Bird exception. The Early Bird exception CANNOT be combined with cap space. You can use one, or you can use the other. Had we kept Cojo instead of Delon, AND renounced all of our free agents AND cut all of our unguaranteed money we would have been able to offer Holmes about 4y/$58M - but that would have come at the expense of at least 5 bench players and if rumors that Charlotte may offer Holmes $20M to start are true, wouldn't have come close to sealing the deal anyway.

So, Delon's money by itself could have given us enough head room under the cap to make a difference. Delon plus basically every bench player we control? Yes, a little, but at a pretty high cost.

right what isn’t clear is can you use the early bird plus any cap space or if available cap space is $10M or less you are capped the early bird amount?
No, if we had cap space we would not be constrained by the Early Bird amount. But as above, it would have been very difficult to get enough cap space to exceed the Early Bird value, and it would not have been exceeded by very much.

curious also if we didn’t have Delon and cut CoJo could we have signed TD with that cap space then signed Delon with early bird money?
If we didn't trade for Delon, he would still be under contract to the Pistons. He would not be a free agent this offseason.