kingsboi and Mr. S£im couch GM discussion (split)

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#1
I wouldn't even necessarily say that his style of play is not conducive to winning, just that a team built around him has to be built in a very specific way, and the Thunder are not built in that way. In the "modern" NBA, a championship contender that has Westbrook as its best player would have to be built more like the 17-18 Celtics.

I have long felt like nearly all general managers and coaches in the NBA are completely lacking in imagination. Now, to be completely fair, lack of access to the necessary players is a major problem: sometimes, you might have a concept that you can't make work without a complementary player who's under contract for somebody else. That said, I feel like I could build a championship team in which any one of the Top 15 players in the NBA is the best player on the team. In fact, given access to the entire NBA, I feel like I wouldn't even need a second Top 15 player to do it.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#8
How do you know that I don't know? For that matter, what has, say, Rob Pelinka demonstrated that suggests to you that he knows any more than I do?
Rob Pelinka was hired by someone who knew him and threw him a bone. If you think you know so much, why don't you lay out a team you would field out there in order to achieve a title.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#9
Rob Pelinka was hired by someone who knew him and threw him a bone.
That's exactly my point: nearly every general manager in the NBA got their job because they knew somebody who knew somebody. You don't actually think that being an NBA GM requires some special skill, that only thirty guys in the world have, do you? You think they went to GM College? And, by the way, while you want to use "couch gm" as a pejorative, I'll wager everything I've got, and everything I'm going to have, that every NBA GM under the age of, say, sixty, was a "couch gm" at some point in their lives, prior to becoming an actual gm. So obviously, being a "couch gm" is not an inherently disqualifying characteristic.

If you think you know so much, why don't you lay out a team you would field out there in order to achieve a title.
It's not about which team, it's about which players, which was my original thesis, as you'll recall: the Top 10 players in the league right now, in my estimation, are Antetokuonmpo, Durant, James, Leonard, Harden, Curry, Lillard, Jokic, Embiid and Davis. I feel very confident that I could build a championship team around any one of those guys. In thinking it through, I am somewhat less confident that I could build a championship team around the 11-15th best guys in the league but, given access to everybody from 16 on down, I'm sure I could do it.

I think that you think that I think the job is easy, and I never said anything like that. I just think that most general managers make the job harder than it has to be, because they approach their jobs without any imagination: I think that they artificially restrict themselves by overly rigid notions of what a team has to look like, what it has to be built like like. Like, analytics have been around for a couple of decades now, the most powerful and useful resource in the history of sports/sports science. And a bunch of people whom I have been led to believe are the most brilliant minds in the business, and the most capable of all possible people to occupy those positions have had full access to this resource for decades, and the only thing that most of them have figured out is that three is more than two. And you really find the notion that a "couch gm" could do better than some of these guys to really be so ridiculous?


I'm not even criticizing all of the general managers in the league, some of them are doing damned fine work: I think that the Bucks, for example, are built exactly the way that a team built around Antetokuonmpo would need to be built in order to win a championship. Time will tell if it actually works, but I think the only two things keeping them from winning a ring this year are experience and health. By comparison, I think that the Trail Blazers are built all wrong, in terms of how a championship team built around Damian Lillard would need to look.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#10
That's exactly my point: nearly every general manager in the NBA got their job because they knew somebody who knew somebody. You don't actually think that being an NBA GM requires some special skill, that only thirty guys in the world have, do you? You think they went to GM College? And, by the way, while you want to use "couch gm" as a pejorative, I'll wager everything I've got, and everything I'm going to have, that every NBA GM under the age of, say, sixty, was a "couch gm" at some point in their lives, prior to becoming an actual gm. So obviously, being a "couch gm" is not an inherently disqualifying characteristic.

It's not about which team, it's about which players, which was my original thesis, as you'll recall: the Top 10 players in the league right now, in my estimation, are Antetokuonmpo, Durant, James, Leonard, Harden, Curry, Lillard, Jokic, Embiid and Davis. I feel very confident that I could build a championship team around any one of those guys. In thinking it through, I am somewhat less confident that I could build a championship team around the 11-15th best guys in the league but, given access to everybody from 16 on down, I'm sure I could do it.

I think that you think that I think the job is easy, and I never said anything like that. I just think that most general managers make the job harder than it has to be, because they approach their jobs without any imagination: I think that they artificially restrict themselves by overly rigid notions of what a team has to look like, what it has to be built like like. Like, analytics have been around for a couple of decades now, the most powerful and useful resource in the history of sports/sports science. And a bunch of people whom I have been led to believe are the most brilliant minds in the business, and the most capable of all possible people to occupy those positions have had full access to this resource for decades, and the only thing that most of them have figured out is that three is more than two. And you really find the notion that a "couch gm" could do better than some of these guys to really be so ridiculous?

I'm not even criticizing all of the general managers in the league, some of them are doing damned fine work: I think that the Bucks, for example, are built exactly the way that a team built around Antetokuonmpo would need to be built in order to win a championship. Time will tell if it actually works, but I think the only two things keeping them from winning a ring this year are experience and health. By comparison, I think that the Trail Blazers are built all wrong, in terms of how a championship team built around Damian Lillard would need to look.
you write way too much to try to make a point. Just because someone gets hired as GM doesn't necessarily mean they will do a good job. I mean, Pete D was the Kings GM and that held the team back a couple of seasons.

Giannis needs to get through Kawhi if he wants to get to the Finals, so I hope they meet in the Postseason. How would a championship team build around Dame Dolla look to you?
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#11
you write way too much to try to make a point. Just because someone gets hired as GM doesn't necessarily mean they will do a good job. I mean, Pete D was the Kings GM and that held the team back a couple of seasons.

Giannis needs to get through Kawhi if he wants to get to the Finals, so I hope they meet in the Postseason. How would a championship team build around Dame Dolla look to you?
You've kept this discussion alive. He's explaining his position. Maybe you should read it again? I think he went above and beyond to try and get his point across.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#12
You've kept this discussion alive. He's explaining his position. Maybe you should read it again? I think he went above and beyond to try and get his point across.
what he wanted to tell me could of been done in a paragraph, maybe two. You more than anyone should be well aware of Slim's ranting and blocks and blocks of words that make what he is trying to say as extended as possible.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#13
what he wanted to tell me could of been done in a paragraph, maybe two. You more than anyone should be well aware of Slim's ranting and blocks and blocks of words that make what he is trying to say as extended as possible.
I disagree. But it doesn't matter. If you're gonna resort to arguing his personal style, you're stepping over the line. Keep it about the topic. Thanks.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#14
Shifting gears back to the primary theme of the thread, I'm rooting for San Antonio tonight. Under any other circumstance, I'd be pulling for Mike Malone and the Nuggets, but I want San Antonio, for the story.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#15
I don't know what to tell you, man. I'm like the "modern" NBA: I don't have a mid-range game. Breakaway dunks and half-court shots, that's what I got.

We are in agreement on this: the disconnect is that you frame your argument in a way that appears to presuppose that the fact that I don't have the job is somehow proof that I couldn't do the job.

The trouble with building a championship team around Dame is that Portland is sooo far over the cap that I'd probably have to blow the whole damned thing up, and start from scratch. I think that you could build a team like the Bad Boy Pistons, that could win a ring in the Modern NBA, but you'd have to replace McCollum with a guy who can get buckets, but also lock up the other team's best guard; trade with New Orleans for Holiday, perhaps? They might be talked into it, since they're rebuilding, and McCollum has one less year on his deal. The hard part would be getting rid of Turner and Leonard, but they're both expiring contracts, and there's always someone willing to take those on. Ideally, I'd like to turn that $30M into Draymond Green and Bogdanovic (the Kings one). I guess I'd keep Collins, because the price is right, but I'd rather bring back FIBA World Champion Mason Plumlee. Kanter's proven to be a good fit, but I doubt that he likes Portland enough to take a haircut to come back... I'd roll the dice on Dwight, if he passes a physical.

Incoming:
Jrue Holiday
Draymond Green
Bogdan Bogdanovic
Dwight Howard


Outgoing:
CJ McCollum
Evan Turner
Enes Kanter
Meyers Leonard


Starters:
Damian Lillard
Jrue Holiday
Al-Farouq Aminu
Draymond Green
Jusuf Nurkic


Reserves:
Seth Curry
Bogdan Bogdanovic
Maurice Harkless
Zach Collins
Dwight Howard
Rodney Hood
Skal Labissière (**** it, why not)
Anfernee Simons
Gary Trent, Jr.


EDIT - Forgot to mention that I'd also fire Stotts, since I think dude is wild overrated, and is actually holding that team back.
so Dame, Holiday, Aminu, Draymond & Nurkic you think nets you a title? you have the ghost of Dwight off the bench? I thought you can do better than that.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#16
so Dame, Holiday, Aminu, Draymond & Nurkic you think nets you a title?
In what way is Lillard, Holiday, Aminu, Green and Nurkic significantly lesser than Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Green and Bogut? The team that Portland has right now, at full strength, might be good enough to get to the Finals, if they had better coaching; why wouldn't that team, with upgrades at two key positions, not be a title contender?
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#17
In what way is Lillard, Holiday, Aminu, Green and Nurkic significantly lesser than Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Green and Bogut? The team that Portland has right now, at full strength, might be good enough to get to the Finals, if they had better coaching; why wouldn't that team, with upgrades at two key positions, not be a title contender?
no one on that team can shoot at the clip that Curry and Klay can for starters. Bogut as a starter is a fail, he didn't even start last game. Moving forward, Warriors are playing Dray at the 5 and just going with their mega death line up of Curry, Klay, Durant, Iggy & Dray. What coach would you bring in that would provide better coaching for Portland?
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#18
no one on that team can shoot at the clip that Curry and Klay can for starters. Bogut as a starter is a fail, he didn't even start last game. Moving forward, Warriors are playing Dray at the 5 and just going with their mega death line up of Curry, Klay, Durant, Iggy & Dray.
I'm not comparing that lineup to the 2019 Warriors: I thought it was clear that I was comparing them to the 2015 Warriors. Why do you think I would have mentioned Barnes, if I was talking about this year's team?

The problem with playing Green at center is the same as it's always been: the reason why Golden State's "Death" lineup/"Hamptons 5" lineup is so effective is because they don't use if for long stretches. When they only have to play that lineup for 20-25 minutes a night, they're virtually unbeatable. When they have to play that lineup for 32+ minutes is when things go south for them.


What coach would you bring in that would provide better coaching for Portland?
If I were given the reigns of a team tomorrow, my first phone call is to Ettore Messina.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#19
I'm not comparing that lineup to the 2019 Warriors: I thought it was clear that I was comparing them to the 2015 Warriors. Why do you think I would have mentioned Barnes, if I was talking about this year's team?

The problem with playing Green at center is the same as it's always been: the reason why Golden State's "Death" lineup/"Hamptons 5" lineup is so effective is because they don't use if for long stretches. When they only have to play that lineup for 20-25 minutes a night, they're virtually unbeatable. When they have to play that lineup for 32+ minutes is when things go south for them.


If I were given the reigns of a team tomorrow, my first phone call is to Ettore Messina.
so not only is your starting five flawed, you are getting a average assistant to become your head coach who you feel puts them over the top.
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
#20
so not only is your starting five flawed, you are getting a average assistant to become your head coach who you feel puts them over the top.
That lineup isn't flawed. And Messina is much better than an average assistant. There's no counterfactual for the former, but history will prove me right on the latter.