Kings Rotations

[lwc]

I will admit that often times I'm on an island by myself when it comes to my thoughts regarding the Kings.

The Kings currently have 11 players averaging 16+ minutes, 7 players averaging 20+ minutes, and nobody averaging more than 26 minutes per game.

In terms of a solid rotation, the closest thing the Kings have is:
Fox - 26
Hill - 26
Bogey - 23
WCS - 25
ZBo - 24
Buddy - 6th man scorer - 22
Temple - Utility man - 25

As you can see nobody is close to that 32 minutes that most starters get. Will this season continue to be the kind where 11 players get some run or do you think joerger will begin tightening up the rotation?

Do you think it is best to give as many players as possible sum of a run or do you think it is best to make them fight it out in practice and then tighten the rotations and give a few players more of those starter minutes?

For the record, I think that joerger is one of the two best coaches this team has had in a decade or more. With that said, I trust him to lead the team. But as a fan, I like to think I know things too LOL

What say you? Remember, if you give more minutes to someone, you have to take them from someone else so what is your ideal rotation with minutes?

 

[lwc]

Current minute break down as of today

 

[dude12]

With so many young players to develop, I think he's doing a masterful job of this. Sometimes guys play more when they play well, like Mason the other night, and sometimes they lose minutes when not playing well, like Mason against the Clippers.

He's changed things up with the lineup, he's mixed and matched, I think everything is going very well. Even though a guy like Jackson hasn't played of late, he will get back in at some point.

Here's what I know....WCS as of late, looks tremendous. If they all develop like this, we will be happy fans. Developing players is not a straight line....it's a up and down and all over the place line.

 

[upinsmoke]

I would like to see zach reduced to 8-10 mins a game. Only way you can justify giving him more is if he's hot or against a team that uses a true center.

 

[Larry89]

Minutes have been distributed great even when Zbo and Hill refuse to have their minutes reduced (I heard). It has really helped kept some players engaged and developing quite nicely over time. Bringing Buddy off the bench has made him twice the player h was at the beginning of the season, Frank Mason developing nicely, WCS is hungrier.. I'm curious to see how consistent WCS and Mason/Fox Hield become with their roles changing

 

[VF21]

Minutes have been distributed great even when Zbo and Hill refuse to have their minutes reduced (I heard). It has really helped kept some players engaged and developing quite nicely over time. Bringing Buddy off the bench has made him twice the player h was at the beginning of the season, Frank Mason developing nicely, WCS is hungrier.. I'm curious to see how consistent WCS and Mason/Fox Hield become with their roles changing

That's a misinterpretation of something said in an interview.

 

[ppine]

Justin Jackson must really be in the dog house going from a starter to DNP.
The Kings take turns having good games. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It is only a problem when there are games like the Bucks on 11/28 and nobody has a good game.

 

[ockingsfan]

The problem with the Kings is not so much the rotations, but they do not have a go-to scorer. We need someone that can consistently put up 18-20 pts/game.

The closest thing to a go-to scorer is Buddy Hield and he plays better off the bench.

The Kings need that Alpha scorer, otherwise the Kings will keep have trouble winning many games.

Until we get that Alpha dog, hopefully at the top of the 2018 draft, this offense will always have trouble putting up enough points to win games.

 

[SacTownKid]

In a word: platoon. Never works long term, diminishes value, and loses your players. Different day, same story.

I would think at some point the idea is going to be finally putting players in a position to produce at the highest level possible but it has to come at the expense of someone. I do respect Dave trying to incorporate everyone but the NBA just doesn't work that way. It's a complete dog eat dog world and they are all compensated well enough to take whatever may come, including a firing, trade, waiver, etc. Development isn't a straight line, but minutes that go up and down with the breaks of the game do nothing but cement a pattern of inconsistency on the floor. That has defined the year up to this point. We know what Zach Randolph can do, we know what Hill can do, what Temple can do. The young players need to be not only developed but information must be gathered from a personnel level via the opportunity to play in a consistent role. That is time being wasted right now.

 

[SacTownKid]

The problem with the Kings is not so much the rotations, but they do not have a go-to scorer. We need someone that can consistently put up 18-20 pts/game.

The closest thing to a go-to scorer is Buddy Hield and he plays better off the bench.

The Kings need that Alpha scorer, otherwise the Kings will keep have trouble winning many games.

Until we get that Alpha dog, hopefully at the top of the 2018 draft, this offense will always have trouble putting up enough points to win games.

As I stated it's impossible the way the team is being run. How can someone put up 20 ppg, or develop as a go to scorer if they shoot the ball 18 times one night and 7 the next? Play 26 minutes one night, then 15 the next? Buddy just put up an unbelievable run the other night, and the next his minutes and shots are cut. A lot of times he's stuck in the corner to spread the floor while a player who is a worse option than he gets a shot. It's time to pick the horses you ride on and ride them. My opinion is that he's the player with the potential to do that right now on the roster.

 

[Larry David]

In a word: platoon. Never works long term, diminishes value, and loses your players. Different day, same story.

This is 100% right. You can't have most of the players in platoons on a team that's losing the vast majority of their games. At some point, things turn really ugly. After a couple of wins, I was hoping the upswing would continue. But, dreadful clunkers like last night also frequently happen. So, it's hard to say when the platoon revolt will occur. But, it will occur.

It's unfortunate for Dave and the players that Vlade assembled 8-11 players that would currently be very good bench players on a really good team. And those players all want and need to play because they are either kids or vets hanging on to the end of their careers. And that the Kings just can't play all of them. And the players that sit when the Kings move to real rotations will languish and/or check out. But, it's a function of the roster and the cream tends to rises to the top.

 

[ockingsfan]

In a word: platoon. Never works long term, diminishes value, and loses your players. Different day, same story.

I would think at some point the idea is going to be finally putting players in a position to produce at the highest level possible but it has to come at the expense of someone. I do respect Dave trying to incorporate everyone but the NBA just doesn't work that way. It's a complete dog eat dog world and they are all compensated well enough to take whatever may come, including a firing, trade, waiver, etc. Development isn't a straight line, but minutes that go up and down with the breaks of the game do nothing but cement a pattern of inconsistency on the floor. That has defined the year up to this point. We know what Zach Randolph can do, we know what Hill can do, what Temple can do. The young players need to be not only developed but information must be gathered from a personnel level via the opportunity to play in a consistent role. That is time being wasted right now.

With such a young roster and no mandate to win at all costs now, I think Joeger is still in the feeling out process with this roster. He is trying to give everyone minutes to see who sticks and who doesn't.

How else would you suggest that he gets a feel of which players can really play, than to give everyone a shot during games?

I know that it may be frustrating at times, but for the long term health and development of this team, it is better to give the young guys a equal shot at the beginning of the season and see who rises to the top. Eventually, Joeger will pick out a solid rotation and stick with it. At this point, that would be counter productive to player development.

This season is not about wins and losses. This season is trying to give the young players minutes and playing time to see who will be part of our core in the future. If Joeger was to settle in on 2 or 3 young players getting all the minutes along with the vets, where does that leave the other young guys? Sitting on the bench.

Joeger is using this season as an extended pre-season and trying to determine who will fit going forward. Joeger has never platooned before, so there is a reason why he is doing it now.

 

[Suicide King]

With such a young roster and no mandate to win at all costs now, I think Joeger is still in the feeling out process with this roster. He is trying to give everyone minutes to see who sticks and who doesn't.

How else would you suggest that he gets a feel of which players can really play, than to give everyone a shot during games?

I know that it may be frustrating at times, but for the long term health and development of this team, it is better to give the young guys a equal shot at the beginning of the season and see who rises to the top. Eventually, Joeger will pick out a solid rotation and stick with it. At this point, that would be counter productive to player development.

This season is not about wins and losses. This season is trying to give the young players minutes and playing time to see who will be part of our core in the future. If Joeger was to settle in on 2 or 3 young players getting all the minutes along with the vets, where does that leave the other young guys? Sitting on the bench.

Joeger is using this season as an extended pre-season and trying to determine who will fit going forward. Joeger has never platooned before, so there is a reason why he is doing it now.

I have been hoping that this is a good explanation of why Justin has gone from starter to DNP's. Perhaps Joerger got a good feel of what Justin can do, decided that he liked what he saw ( or didn't but I would doubt this ) and is using this part of the season to see what else he has on the team, hence Justin's recent minute evaporation.

Time will tell.

 

[fansinceday1]

what did justin do to warrant being sent to reno with papa?

 

[Suicide King]

what did justin do to warrant being sent to reno with papa?

I just saw that as well, along with Richardson. Hopefully it is meant to keep him in rhythm until a move is made to free up minutes.

 

[kingsboi]

what did justin do to warrant being sent to reno with papa?

if Joerger isn't playing him, why not send him down there? It's why this franchise has a G-League affiliate. Better for him to continue to remain in game shape rather than having a DNP every game.

 

[King Baller]

As I stated it's impossible the way the team is being run. How can someone put up 20 ppg, or develop as a go to scorer if they shoot the ball 18 times one night and 7 the next? Play 26 minutes one night, then 15 the next? Buddy just put up an unbelievable run the other night, and the next his minutes and shots are cut. A lot of times he's stuck in the corner to spread the floor while a player who is a worse option than he gets a shot. It's time to pick the horses you ride on and ride them. My opinion is that he's the player with the potential to do that right now on the roster.

OK, so give us your starting 5 and your bench plus a description of when you do your substitutions. It is easy to say " it's impossible the way the team is being run" so tell us how you would run it.

 

[SacTownKid]

OK, so give us your starting 5 and your bench plus a description of when you do your substitutions. It is easy to say " it's impossible the way the team is being run" so tell us how you would run it.

I've said many times before what I think the core in terms of value is with this team for the time being and the highest potential payoff in investing minutes, and you don't have to do it rock solid every game. No, this roster is not a perfect fit or without coaching nightmare scenarios of ditching players altogether and I have mentioned my opinion about the fact that the team is a little too stacked with minute seekers that play the same basic positions. Oh well, it ain't working otherwise and is just bringing your shiniest pieces down a notch when you need someone to accumulate some sort of value so you at least have some options should trades be necessary.

PG: Fox (30)/Hill (18)
SG: Hield (34)/Bogdan (8)/Hill (6)
SF: Bogdan (24)/Temple (16)/VC (8)
PF: Skal (22)/Randolph (24)/VC (2) - varies if the Kings need VC at PF more for small teams, Koufos and Zbo get the decrease if so.
C: Willie (30)/Koufos (18)

Those are obviously not set in stone because every game is different but averages don't lie. Mason takes over for Hill some nights, Jackson for Temple/VC, Malachi could share some of those minutes, Harry and Papa for Randolph/Koufos with a boost in minutes for Skal some nights.

Pattern wise if it were me I would probably look at Bogdan as that pseudo bench overlap player that comes out at the mid point of the 1st and you re-insert at the end of that same quarter or at the start of the next. I think off the bench they should look to run the offense via pick and roll through him like Joerger is starting to now. Skal might be a guy I think you can be OK with keeping in that 20-25 mpg range because he's still physically developing and along with Fox is truly a YOUNG player.

You have a 9.5/10 man rotation which is what I think the limit is to showcase a players talents. Now of course some nights you go beyond that but this is a foundation for your top prospects in Fox, Buddy, Bogdan, Skal, and Willie. As the season goes into the sunset and all the keys go to the young guys you start working in Mason, Jackson, PapaG, Malachi, and Harry here and there. Also use Joergers every other night idea to get them some burn in between, pretty much like what he's done so far this year with Mason and the rest of those that have played on that list. Minutes wise there is some play obviously but I certainly would try and start seeing how that starting 5 does with real starters minutes in the 32-35 range. Also this youth bench thing IMO is a deterrent to their improvement. I want these guys playing against the other teams best so they can see where they need to be and learn the opposition that they will be expected to hang with in time. Maybe pick up a few things in the process, learn how to score against certain defenses, etc. Another thing to realize is that 3 of this young starting 5 aren't really that young. They are just a few seasons away from what experts consider the physical prime of a basketball player. Time isn't so long here.

 

[Iced Espresso]

what did justin do to warrant being sent to reno with papa?

I don't know, but when Carter is at the 4 it bothers me less, when Carter is getting sf minutes it bothers me more.

 

[Nokidding]

Didn't Jackson like last week/slightly earlier have back to back monster games for a rookie? His defense I thought was solid no idea why he is out of the rotation. The team is not trying to win so why is he out?

 

[ESP47]

Didn't Jackson like last week/slightly earlier have back to back monster games for a rookie? His defense I thought was solid no idea why he is out of the rotation. The team is not trying to win so why is he out?

Advanced stats say he's the worst or 2nd worst player on the team. Mainly due to defense. To me, his defense as a rookie passes the eye test so maybe there's more to it.

I think Joerger was just trying to figure out how to not lose every game by 30-40 points....which I think was a smart move. They don't need to win but they don't need to experience soul crushing defeats every night either. I'd much rather him and the other players get some run in Reno than just wave a towel on the bench.

 

[Telemachus]

Advanced stats say he's the worst or 2nd worst player on the team. Mainly due to defense. To me, his defense as a rookie passes the eye test so maybe there's more to it.

I think Joerger was just trying to figure out how to not lose every game by 30-40 points....which I think was a smart move. They don't need to win but they don't need to experience soul crushing defeats every night either. I'd much rather him and the other players get some run in Reno than just wave a towel on the bench.

I think that Mason is getting Jackson's minutes. Moving Hill to the 2 crunched the minutes for sgs & sfs, with Mason playing the role that Fox was earlier.

 

[Folsomkingsfan]

I do give credit to Joerger for balancing such an unorthodox roster, but how hard is it for him to see that Fox and Randolph should never be on the court together? Fox does nothing besides dump the ball of the Zbo the first chance he gets when they are on the floor at the same time and looks afraid to do anything else.

 

[Blob]

Justin Jackson must really be in the dog house going from a starter to DNP.
The Kings take turns having good games. There is nothing wrong with that at all. It is only a problem when there are games like the Bucks on 11/28 and nobody has a good game.

He's not in the doghouse. When Mason was inserted into the rotation to spark the Kings dreary offensive, his minutes had to come at the expense of someone. That someone was Jackson.

That said I noticed lately when Joerger loses his confidence in Skal, he resorts to Vince at PF, who has NO game left.

If the coach chooses NOT to go back to Skal, this would be opportunity to play Jackson in small ball lineup.

Vince has a PER of 3.1. He makes 25% of his shots. He throws low percentage passes. His defense involves swiping at the ball instead of moving his feet.

I like Carter as a mentor and cheerleader but there is no reason to play him absent misplaced sentimentality of the coach.

 

[King Baller]

Carter calls out the defensive sets. That is why Joerger always has a Vet on the floor.

 

[Telemachus]

He's not in the doghouse. When Mason was inserted into the rotation to spark the Kings dreary offensive, his minutes had to come at the expense of someone. That someone was Jackson.

That said I noticed lately when Joerger loses his confidence in Skal, he resorts to Vince at PF, who has NO game left.

If the coach chooses NOT to go back to Skal, this would be opportunity to play Jackson in small ball lineup.

Vince has a PER of 3.1. He makes 25% of his shots. He throws low percentage passes. His defense involves swiping at the ball instead of moving his feet.

I like Carter as a mentor and cheerleader but there is no reason to play him absent misplaced sentimentality of the coach.

Coach mentioned in a post game press conference why he was using Carter. In the Warrior game, they were using a lot of old school cuts that the young players weren't recognizing. He put Carter in to help direct the defence.

 

[Blob]

I do give credit to Joerger for balancing such an unorthodox roster, but how hard is it for him to see that Fox and Randolph should never be on the court together? Fox does nothing besides dump the ball of the Zbo the first chance he gets when they are on the floor at the same time and looks afraid to do anything else.

I agree with you to an extent. I think De'Aaron is deferring to Z-Bong too much.

On one play to end half Fox had the side of the floor open, and ended up just throwing the ball out to Randolph to launch a brick.

All of this foolishness will hopefully sort itself over time when SKAL and GILES command those minutes. Then Fox can play with players who play at his pace and complement rather than detract.

I think of it like this: Joerger has a bias to Randolph even though he is NET negative player with no projected role in the future success of the team.

Skal and /or Giles has to be SO good to overcome this bias so the choice to play them exclusively over Randolph is the obvious choice.

Frankly if Skal and Giles are as talented as advertised, then this choice should become obvious sooner than later at least as Skal snaps out of his (season long) slump, regains his confidence and strings together productive games.

 

[206Fan]

Coach mentioned in a post game press conference why he was using Carter. In the Warrior game, they were using a lot of old school cuts that the young players weren't recognizing. He put Carter in to help direct the defence.

Someone did make a good point in another forum. You need solid NBA players on the floor to help out our young guys. We need vets who know how to do all the little things, so it turn, it can help Fox and Skal. If we just throw out Fox-Buddy-Jackson-Skal-WCS, we all know that at least 2 of them are going to be lost on the floor. That doesn't benefit Fox in any way.

I'm accepting of Carter playing minutes right now. Not ideal, but eh. I think it's temporary.

 

[206Fan]

I agree with you to an extent. I think De'Aaron is deferring to Z-Bong too much.

On one play to end half Fox had the side of the floor open, and ended up just throwing the ball out to Randolph to launch a brick.

All of this foolishness will hopefully sort itself over time when SKAL and GILES command those minutes. Then Fox can play with players who play at his pace and complement rather than detract.

I think of it like this: Joerger has a bias to Randolph even though he is NET negative player with no projected role in the future success of the team.

Skal and /or Giles has to be SO good to overcome this bias so the choice to play them exclusively over Randolph is the obvious choice.

Frankly if Skal and Giles are as talented as advertised, then this choice should become obvious sooner than later at least as Skal snaps out of his (season long) slump, regains his confidence and strings together productive games.

Skal still looks unwatchable to me.. he did a lot better in the GSW game on defense, but aside from 2-3 game outliers, he's still constantly lost on both ends. I don't see Skal overtaking ZBo this year, not until March when the Kings rest everyone up.

I think Joerger has given Skal the opportunity to take over Randolph's minutes, but he's done nothing to overtake him. I'm ok with Fox deferring to ZBo but we do want him to start attacking a lot more in the half court. I don't like a passive Fox, but we've been getting that since moving him to the starting lineup. I think playing with ZBo helps Fox develop his lacking half-court skills.

 

[Blob]

Coach mentioned in a post game press conference why he was using Carter. In the Warrior game, they were using a lot of old school cuts that the young players weren't recognizing. He put Carter in to help direct the defence.

This is true and I think Joerger felt Carter was a better match-up on Draymond than Skal on the perimeter.

Barring these types of special circumstances there is no reason to play him.

Personally I think it is kind of sad to see Carter try to compete nowadays. The numbers speak for themselves.