Kings - Pacers

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Smills91

Starter
Kings deal:
Beno Udrih

Pacers deal:
Jamaal Tinsley

Why for the Kings. He's a better PG on a shorter contract who a distributive PG and would fit better with this roster.

Why for the Pacers. Remove the headache and get SOME type of production for paying 6 million a year. Udrih could be a solid back-up PG in Indiana as he may fit better with their particular roster dynamics.
 
Tinsley? Tinsley the guy who hasn't played a minute for the Pacers this year because he's such a cancer he's been asked to go away Tinsley?

I hope there's another Tinsley you're thinking of, because I don't want to see the version I'm aware of anywhere NEAR a team I root for.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
Tinsley? Tinsley the guy who hasn't played a minute for the Pacers this year because he's such a cancer he's been asked to go away Tinsley?

I hope there's another Tinsley you're thinking of, because I don't want to see the version I'm aware of anywhere NEAR a team I root for.
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Yep, best way to erase the mistake known as Udrih and actually IMPROVE at the PG position. He needs a change of scenario and he only has 2 years left past this one, unlike the 4 Udrih has remaining.
 
This idea doesn't even warrant a response, but here goes anyway:

Beno is fine. He's the same guy he was last year. He would make a perfectly decent backup point guard when the Kings get a better one, and relative to other point guards in the league, he's paid accordingly.

You don't trade him for a complete zero. If you're going to trade him, you can do better than a crappy player with a bad contract. If you can't do better than this then don't trade him. It's not fire sale time with Beno.

Tinsley is an injury-prone 31 year old cancer. And even when he is on the court he completely sucks. Think things are depressing now? Wait until the Jamal Tinsley era. We'd all be dropping toasters in our bathtubs.

Other than that, great idea as always, Smills91.
 
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Smills91 said:
Kings deal:
Beno Udrih

Pacers deal:
Jamaal Tinsley

Why for the Kings. He's a better PG on a shorter contract who a distributive PG and would fit better with this roster.

Why for the Pacers. Remove the headache and get SOME type of production for paying 6 million a year. Udrih could be a solid back-up PG in Indiana as he may fit better with their particular roster dynamics.
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Well, this is timely:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3880962

And you actually want this guy??

My favorite part:

Tinsley has averaged 10.4 points and 7 assists over his seven-year career, all of which has been played in Indiana. After trades of Ron Artest, Jermaine O'Neal and Stephen Jackson, Tinsley is the last remaining vestige of the Pacers' recent era of lawlessness, highlighted by the 2004 brawl in Detroit, that cost the club much of its local fan base.


But Tinsley's baggage may not be the biggest detriment to a trade. His contract and the fact that he's injury-prone, having played more than 42 games just once in the past five seasons, have scared teams off.
Click to expand...
 
nbrans said:
Think things are depressing now? Wait until the Jamal Tinsley era. We'd all be dropping toasters in our bathtubs.
Click to expand...

Forget dropping toasters in the bathtub, I might go so far as to go hang out at local nightclubs.
 
I'd do this trade, for sure.

Better player and shorter contract. Probably a Tinsley career ending injury is better than 4 1/2 more years of Beno Udrih.

And Jack is a restricted free agent this offseason, so it would make some sense (in addition to the Tinsley situation) for Indiana.
 
hearns said:
I'd do this trade, for sure.

Better player and shorter contract. Probably a Tinsley career ending injury is better than 4 1/2 more years of Beno Udrih.

And Jack is a restricted free agent this offseason, so it would make some sense (in addition to the Tinsley situation) for Indiana.
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Are you related to Smills91?
 
No. His trades are usually lopsided, but I'd do this. I'd trade Udrih for any shorter contract. And Tinsley is a better player (with a lot of baggage, though).

Have you something personal against Smills or you can't believe someone agrees with some of his multiple proposals?
 
hearns said:
No. His trades are usually lopsided, but I'd do this. I'd trade Udrih for any shorter contract. And Tinsley is a better player (with a lot of baggage, though).

Have you something personal against Smills or you can't believe someone agrees with some of his multiple proposals?
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I guess I'm surprised someone would think Tinsley is a better player than Udrih. He's 31, injury prone, and not terribly effective even when he is playing. And that's setting aside his baggage, which this franchise simply does not need at this point.

Look -- if the Kings wanted to dump Udrih they could do much better than this. This trade would make an already bad situation a thousand times worse.
 
The Pacers would rather keep Tinsley than take on ANOTHER long contract named Beno Udrih. Face it, we are stuck with Beno for at least another year or two.
 
I think that of the many downsides to having a losing (and big time!) year, two of my least favorite are illustrated in this thread.

Exhibit 1: Elevation of pessimism to an art form:

The Pacers would rather keep Tinsley than take on ANOTHER long contract named Beno Udrih. Face it, we are stuck with Beno for at least another year or two.
Click to expand...
Here we see that the contracts/players possessed by the Kings are the worst possible contracts/players and we cannot possibly get out from under them. It's not just Beno, it's KT, it's Brad, it's Mikki, it's Salmons, it's falling, it's falling, is falling the sky!

Exhibit 2: Missing the forest for the trees in regard to trades.

I'd trade Udrih for any shorter contract.
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The point in rebuilding is to acquire pieces that will help us in the future. The point is not to simply "get rid of" whoever is the scapegoat du jour. Beno, Brad, Salmons...they've all had trade rumors surrounding them, especially the latter two. But we should not view trades as a means to simply dump players, especially when we remember Exhibit 1 - they're not as bad as they're being made out to be. Should we use them to get future value? Absolutely. Should we dump them to get the shunned, cut-worthy outcasts of the NBA like Tinsley or Marbury? Absolutely not. The point is what we get back. And -- even if all we want is salary cap space -- how can we defend the idea of turning Marbury into cap room when there's the very real possibility of turning Marion into cap room?

Pessimism, the loss of the big picture, general impatience and negativity...The examples I'm showing here are not by any means the most egregious examples of these types of thinking, but they're fairly representative of a growing trend and they came right on top of each other (in a thread dedicated to what I would consider Exhibit #2), so I chose them.

I know it will be a fruitless wish, but I do wish that this posting trend would reverse.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
Exhibit 2: Missing the forest for the trees in regard to trades.

The point in rebuilding is to acquire pieces that will help us in the future. The point is not to simply "get rid of" whoever is the scapegoat du jour. Beno, Brad, Salmons...they've all had trade rumors surrounding them, especially the latter two. But we should not view trades as a means to simply dump players, especially when we remember Exhibit 1 - they're not as bad as they're being made out to be. Should we use them to get future value? Absolutely. Should we dump them to get the shunned, cut-worthy outcasts of the NBA like Tinsley or Marbury? Absolutely not. The point is what we get back. And -- even if all we want is salary cap space -- how can we defend the idea of turning Marbury into cap room when there's the very real possibility of turning Marion into cap room?
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I've only talked about Beno, not Brad or Salmons. Beno has the potential to be our new Kenny Thomas more than anything. 5 more years stuck with him.

Marbury? Marion? There's no real possibility to turn Beno into Marbury or Marion. No way Miami or New York takes him.

At this point, I think it's good for the rebuilding take the shortest contract you can for Udrih. Nelson is out for the season, if the Magic want him for garbage like Redick and Brian Cook, go for it.

Capt. Factorial said:
they're not as bad as they're being made out to be
Click to expand...

It's more they aren't as good as we want and they don't have the value we would like. If Petrie is waiting for a Bayless for Salmons swap, there won't be any deals this year, for sure.
 
Capt. Factorial said:
I think that of the many downsides to having a losing (and big time!) year, two of my least favorite are illustrated in this thread.

Exhibit 1: Elevation of pessimism to an art form:

Here we see that the contracts/players possessed by the Kings are the worst possible contracts/players and we cannot possibly get out from under them. It's not just Beno, it's KT, it's Brad, it's Mikki, it's Salmons, it's falling, it's falling, is falling the sky!
Click to expand...

Say what you will, but there is no worse starting PG out there right now other than Beno. The facts:

Most people rate how effective a PG is by their assists, turnovers, and steals. If you can get the "train" going by passing the ball (assists) while limiting mistakes (turnovers), points are just an added bonus, IMO (so are steals, but we'll just keep it to those three areas for now).

Beno is currently:

42nd in assists (4.4)
50th in steals (1.19)
42nd in turnovers (2.4)

Now, the turnovers aren't bad, and if you look at the top of the list for turnovers, you'll see some good PGs (Nash) and some very good players (Wade) who are always at the top for avg turnovers per game...but they also have the ball in their hands more often, and their AST/TO ratio is much higher...

Beno, however is 112th in AST/TO ratio...just to put it into prospective, if you limited it to just guards, Beno would be 93rd in the league at a ratio of 1.82 assists every turnover...

Ouch.

Pretty much, to sum it all, Beno's efficiency is currently 56th in the league for guards. Beno isn't a "terrible" player (just a terrible starter), but when you mix those type of stats + his contract = unmovable contract. And comparing him to Brad, KT, Salmons, etc is just an excuse. Two years ago, KT was unmovable. No one wanted to take on his contract and then wait until 2009 when it actually became valuable...and some could argue that KT had MORE value to his contract because he was a big, and big's in the league have much more trade value than back up PG's, no matter how bad they play.

Such is the case with Beno, no one will want a back up PG, making MLE+ numbers, unless we admit it was a mistake to sign him and beg the team (give them a better trade package) to take him off our books. Beno's contract is SO bad, it won't even be in the same conversation as KT's contract until after 2010 (when it SHOULD have expired, has anyone found out why Beno was signed to a longer deal than 2 years yet?)

And yes, I realize we are stuck with him, and there's no point in complaining about it. As some say, his stock has no where to go but up (that's what happens when you're at the bottom). But making these trades thinking teams will just take Beno off our hands, and all of a sudden, he will become the solutions to a team's problems is one big pipe dream.
 
this trade could be kind of nice if alot of hypotheticals are involved; even if this trade reaks!

Think about this: Tinsely yes injury prone, i'll give you guys that, BUT he can be a very good contributor at the PG spot. And yes! he is a much needed upgrade over beno (well he always seemed to be a consistent PG) no disrespect to beno

And Tinsely is a good floor general imo, he had that floater/tear drop that was money almost every time he did it. And he is a name; by that i mean, he would most def. be in the scouting report for opposing teams. Imagine we win the lotto, We select Blake (for obvious reasons) We trade Brad/Salmons/Kenny/Moore to the respected teams they are rumored to going... We resign Marion and sign a FA in the 09 offseason for the MLE
therefor we'd have a lineup as:

Hawes/FA/Sheldon
Blake/JT
Marion/Greene
Kevin/Cisco/Douby
Tinsley/Brown

that to me looks like a good start to jump start the era of the kings becoming better, because lets face it, we're not getting lebron etc. And in the 2010 season we focus on solidifying the bench and signin an Allstar PG,
 
I think people who are even considering this trade for a second are overlooking one thing:

TINSLEY HAS NOT PLAYED A GAME THIS SEASON.

Indiana would rather have him away from the team, killing his trade value all the while, rather than having him actually try and contribute. That's how much of a cancer he is.

Forget Tinsley. What is it going to take for people to realize that insane players have no place on the Kings? The only thing that stopped people from writing insane Eddie Griffin trade threads was the train that killed him. I seriously don't get it.
 
nbrans said:
I think people who are even considering this trade for a second are overlooking one thing:

TINSLEY HAS NOT PLAYED A GAME THIS SEASON.

Indiana would rather have him away from the team, killing his trade value all the while, rather than having him actually try and contribute. That's how much of a cancer he is.

Forget Tinsley. What is it going to take for people to realize that insane players have no place on the Kings? The only thing that stopped people from writing insane Eddie Griffin trade threads was the train that killed him. I seriously don't get it.
Click to expand...


Because they think it is like a video game where all the other stuff doesn't matter?
 
perezident said:
Hawes/FA/Sheldon
Blake/JT
Marion/Greene
Kevin/Cisco/Douby
Tinsley/Brown

that to me looks like a good start to jump start the era of the kings becoming better, because lets face it, we're not getting lebron etc. And in the 2010 season we focus on solidifying the bench and signin an Allstar PG,
Click to expand...

Yep Armageddon has arrived.

You know it's a sad day for Kings fans when names like Jamal Tinsley are being thrown around as a "good start" for the future. - because well let's face it, if we can't get the best player in the game, we might as well go get a zero games played, oft-injured, nobody gives a crap about him point guard who only slightly has a better contract than Beno and has about 2,000 pounds of baggage hanging from his back.
 
kingsnation said:
Yep Armageddon has arrived.

You know it's a sad day for Kings fans when names like Jamal Tinsley are being thrown around as a "good start" for the future. - because well let's face it, if we can't get the best player in the game, we might as well go get a zero games played, oft-injured, nobody gives a crap about him point guard who only slightly has a better contract than Beno and has about 2,000 pounds of baggage hanging from his back.
Click to expand...

I was looking over my fence this afternoon and started wondering how my neighbor got his lawn so green...
 
I like this idea. Indy would need extra motivation, but i think this would be beneficial to the kings at the very least. How about J.Jack, Tinsley, T.J Ford & Rasho nesterovic for brad miller kenny thomas Beno udrih and 1st round pick
 
I'm higher on Tinsley than most people, but I also recognize that besides his injuries and assortment of off the court troubles, his overall game is also polarizing. He giveths and takeths--while he can really pass the ball he's extremely turnover prone, and while he can really defend when he's up to it he's just such a ridiculously bad shooter. The intrigue stems from the uniqueness of the two parts of his game that he excels at--the passing and defense combination. Not too many 6'3" 200 lb guards can pass proficiently and defend well. The problem is that in order for him to excel, all the other warts in his game has to come out because he loves to call his own number. But look beyond that, and he's clearly a talented player.

The reason his value is so low is because of his combination of his toxic contract, off the court troubles, and injuries. That's almost a death knell for most players, but the reason why Tinsley still has some interest around the league is because of what he has shown he could do. In fact, that's probably why Larry Bird is really in a holding pattern for a good trade, rather than waiving him.

I'm a little concerned about whether Tinsley can become back to his old self, as his conditioning doesn't seem to be very good at all. But he doesn't need athleticism to really defend or pass well, so I think those constants would hold if he receives minutes.

And no, it's not worth sacking Beno to try this out.
 
My main motivation for the deal is the two years we slice off of Udrih's deal. In a year or two that will be MUCH More moveable as an MLE deal of 1-2 years left rather than an MLE deal of 3-4 years left. Beno's deal sucks. Beno sucks. I want him GONE and I'm willing to take Tinsley back to make it happen. Beno's just been AWFUL, no, there's not even a word to describe how bad he's been.
 
Tinsley still has value? In whose eyes? The guy has been sitting at home - I bet any lowball offer at all would probably net a trade....and he's still sitting. No deal, not for that idiot.
 
Arby's Roast Beef said:
I'm higher on Tinsley than most people, but I also recognize that besides his injuries and assortment of off the court troubles, his overall game is also polarizing. He giveths and takeths--while he can really pass the ball he's extremely turnover prone, and while he can really defend when he's up to it he's just such a ridiculously bad shooter. The intrigue stems from the uniqueness of the two parts of his game that he excels at--the passing and defense combination. Not too many 6'3" 200 lb guards can pass proficiently and defend well. The problem is that in order for him to excel, all the other warts in his game has to come out because he loves to call his own number. But look beyond that, and he's clearly a talented player.

The reason his value is so low is because of his combination of his toxic contract, off the court troubles, and injuries. That's almost a death knell for most players, but the reason why Tinsley still has some interest around the league is because of what he has shown he could do. In fact, that's probably why Larry Bird is really in a holding pattern for a good trade, rather than waiving him.

I'm a little concerned about whether Tinsley can become back to his old self, as his conditioning doesn't seem to be very good at all. But he doesn't need athleticism to really defend or pass well, so I think those constants would hold if he receives minutes.

And no, it's not worth sacking Beno to try this out.
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The Pacers would take ANYTHING for Tinsley. Anything. A live body. A movie ticket. A cup of coffee. In fact, ask nicely and they might pay you.

I think the losing is making people lose their minds. Everything starts looking better than what the Kings have. But there are limits. If you start thinking Jamal Tinsley is any kind of a solution whatsoever you have a problem. Seek help!!
 
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Smills91 said:
My main motivation for the deal is the two years we slice off of Udrih's deal. In a year or two that will be MUCH More moveable as an MLE deal of 1-2 years left rather than an MLE deal of 3-4 years left. Beno's deal sucks. Beno sucks. I want him GONE and I'm willing to take Tinsley back to make it happen. Beno's just been AWFUL, no, there's not even a word to describe how bad he's been.
Click to expand...

Whether you like Beno's deal or not, it's only $5 million. It's less than 1/10th of the cap. It's not a barrier to signing a free agent. Beno has not been awful, in fact he's been exactly as mediocre as he was last year. He's not being paid to be a superstar.

Get a hold of yourself. You've been a Brad Miller homer for years, surely you can put up with a little Beno Udrih for a while.
 
nbrans said:
The Pacers would take ANYTHING for Tinsley. Anything. A live body. A movie ticket. A cup of coffee. In fact, ask nicely and they might pay you.

I think the losing is making people lose their minds. Everything starts looking better than what the Kings have. But there are limits. If you start thinking Jamal Tinsley is any kind of a solution whatsoever you have a problem. Seek help!!
Click to expand...

I don't think Jamaal Tinsley is a solution at all--in fact in his reduced state + age I wouldn't be too surprised if he was only a shadow of his old self, which isn't too much because he wasn't even a superstar to begin with. But in the past I did value Tinsley, because of those two unique strengths--just wondering if he can reciprocate them through all his problems/struggles. That's why it's not worth even sacking Beno for him--it's probably not worth it. But for the reasons I stated above, I wouldn't be too surprised if there is some GM (who really needs a PG) who is intrigued by Tinsley's (formerly) tantalizing package.
 
Arby's Roast Beef said:
I don't think Jamaal Tinsley is a solution at all--in fact in his reduced state + age I wouldn't be too surprised if he was only a shadow of his old self, which isn't too much because he wasn't even a superstar to begin with. But in the past I did value Tinsley, because of those two unique strengths--just wondering if he can reciprocate them through all his problems/struggles. That's why it's not worth even sacking Beno for him--it's probably not worth it. But for the reasons I stated above, I wouldn't be too surprised if there is some GM (who really needs a PG) who is intrigued by Tinsley's (formerly) tantalizing package.
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I see what you're saying, and in the past, when healthy, Tinlsey could change a game. If he had his head on straight he really could have been somebody.
 
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