KF's 3rd Greatest Sacramento King of All Time?

[Bricklayer]

I have repeatedly pondered how to start a board poll on who people think are the greatest Sacramento Kings of all time, but rejected various formats for various reasons. I have finally settled on this: a series of polls with 10 options each, and adding in a new option each time somebody gets chosen. I skipped over 1st and 2nd, because those seemed like they would have obvious results and not necessarily inspire much conversation. So I'm going to kick these off with the question: Who Is the 3rd Greatest Sacramento King of All Time?

#1 Chris Webber
#2 Mitch Richmond
#3 ?
#4 ?
#5 ?
#6 ?
#7 ?
#8 ?
#9 ?
#10 ?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I'm not prepared to anoint Cousins the third-greatest of all time, after four years, but nobody else on that list seems worthy of the title, either.

 

[kingsboi]

I don't see how it doesn't become Cousins if he continues to keep improving and stays with the team for a long period of time.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Agreed, with the caveat that it's still too soon to call it. I'm not comfortable with proclaiming Cousins a Top Three Sacramento King of all time after four years, just like I wasn't comfortable proclaiming Shaquille O'Neal one of the Fifty Greatest Players ever after four years.

Maurice Stokes looked like he was going to be one of the greatest rebounders ever after three years, but we saw how quickly that was taken from him. What if Cousins runs out into the street tonight to save a toddler from an oncoming car, and gets paralyzed? Are you still prepared to say he was Top Three?

 

[kingsboi]

There is no point on playing the "what if" game at this point in his career, yes...life happens but for intents and purposes of this thread, this is speculation on our parts and what makes the most sense.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That works both ways, though. You can't say, "I don't see how it doesn't become Cousins if he continues to keep improving and stays with the team for a long period of time," and then turn around and say,"There is no point on playing the "what if" game."

Do you think that the four years he's played to this point, without projecting anything about anything in the future, is enough to proclaim him the third-best Sacramento-era King of all time? Because I don't.

 

[The Hammer]

Think of it this way... who do you want on your team if you're picking teams...

Any of those guys in their primes? Or Demarcus right now?

DMC easy. Therefore. 3rd greatest. I expect he'll give C Webb a run for his money by the time his career is over. I honestly fully and plainly expect him to be the greatest King ever second to the Big O.

 

[King Baller]

Ron Artest should be on that list.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ron Artest should be on that list.

doh, you are right.

Hope I did not invalidate anything, buy Otis had no votes, so I swapped Ron it to replace him.

 

[Brick Wall]

L-Train, because he's the only "career" King on that list.

 

[DesertFox]

I'm torn between Vlade/Peja, but went with Vlade on a coinflip.

DC's contributions haven't reached Vlade/Peja/Bibby yet. Playing out this contract at his current pace would put him right there, and postseason accomplishments would be deciding his place in the top 3.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Think of it this way... who do you want on your team if you're picking teams...

Any of those guys in their primes? Or Demarcus right now?

Well, see, now that the list has been updated, I'd take Artest, but YMMV.

 

[Bricklayer]

Well, see, now that the list has been updated, I'd take Artest, but YMMV.

Well who did you vote for originally? because I can magically change it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I hadn't voted for anybody yet. That was my reply to The Hammer whom, IMO, asked a completely different question. I can't speak for anyone else, but my answer to the question "Who from this list would you take in their prime" is completely separate from "Who from this list do you think is the third-best King of all time?" Not necessarily the same answer.

 

[LoungeLizard]

For me it's got to be Peja. We're talking all time Sac Kings greats. He was 3x all star as King, 2nd team all NBAer, averaged 20+ 4/5 seasons as the starter including 24.2 pts in the 03/04 season when Webber missed almost 60 games. IIRC Peja's name was being thrown around in the MVP discussion that year because of the way he played in Webber's absence.

I know Vlade will get a lot of votes..and he should...what he did for this team doesn't translate in stats or individual accolades but I still think Peja's numbers give him the edge.

When all is said and done, I fully expect Cuz to be the greatest off this list, and hopefully giving Rock and Webb a run as well.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

IIRC Peja's name was being thrown around in the MVP discussion that year because of the way he played in Webber's absence.

Oh god, not this **** again.

Stojakovic was in the MVP discussion in the same sense that Rafael Palmeiro is in the HOF discussion. Which is, to say, not taken seriously by anyone but impossible homers.

 

[kingsboi]

That works both ways, though. You can't say, "I don't see how it doesn't become Cousins if he continues to keep improving and stays with the team for a long period of time," and then turn around and say,"There is no point on playing the "what if" game."

Do you think that the four years he's played to this point, without projecting anything about anything in the future, is enough to proclaim him the third-best Sacramento-era King of all time? Because I don't.

Certainly not, but has there been other players in recent history that have had the potential and physical ability to become a once in a decade type of cornerstone?

 

[The Hammer]

Oh god, not this **** again.

Stojakovic was in the MVP discussion in the same sense that Rafael Palmeiro is in the HOF discussion. Which is, to say, not taken seriously by anyone but impossible homers.

He finished 4th in voting.

No he was never going to win, but 4th in MVP voting is damn impressive. People forget how good Peja was.

 

[The Hammer]

I hadn't voted for anybody yet. That was my reply to The Hammer whom, IMO, asked a completely different question. I can't speak for anyone else, but my answer to the question "Who from this list would you take in their prime" is completely separate from "Who from this list do you think is the third-best King of all time?" Not necessarily the same answer.

To clarify my question, sir, I was comparing Cousins now, to anyone else in their prime.

We all know Cousins is just beginning to enter his prime, not even there yet, but the fact that I'd take him as a player, even at this point, over all others in their primes, proves he's 3rd. Has he had the third most impressive career? No, not yet. But I take the query as simply, "best player". We're comparing players, not careers. Just one way to interpret the Q.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

He finished 4th in voting.

No he was never going to win, but 4th in MVP voting is damn impressive. People forget how good Peja was.

Whatever. I'm not going to bother re-typing everything I said, less than two weeks ago, so here. Him being an "MVP candidate" was counterfeit, and I'll go to the bank with that.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Certainly not, but has there been other players in recent history that have had the potential and physical ability to become a once in a decade type of cornerstone?

That depends on your definitions of "potential" and "recent."

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

To clarify my question, sir, I was comparing Cousins now, to anyone else in their prime.

I understood that. I'm sticking with my answer. Ask me again next September, and I may have a different answer.

 

[The Hammer]

Whatever. I'm not going to bother re-typing everything I said, less than two weeks ago, so here. Him being an "MVP candidate" was counterfeit, and I'll go to the bank with that.

Slim, I'm actually in agreement with you that in general Peja was overrated as an overall player. He was a gifted shooter who had size and moved very well without the ball and fit very well within the system we had at the time. Still, that was a damn good season he had when he finished 4th in MVP voting. I think it was more a function of the team at the time, and he just carried the bulk of the scoring load for a very good passing oriented team that was able to create a lot of open shots. I put his season mostly on Adelman and the rest of the team. We're way too star/player focused these days anyway, so I'm not even really interested in this debate.

 

[Chupacabra]

To not have Cousins as ATLEAST the 3rd best king is a joke. Who is better? I have a hard time deciding between Cousins and Webber for the top spot. The only reason I only give it to Webber because the stats don't back up placing Cousins ahead of him. I'm not at all convinced that Webber was actually a better player than Cousins is right now. This opinion is unpopular.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Slim, I'm actually in agreement with you that in general Peja was overrated as an overall player. He was a gifted shooter who had size and moved very well without the ball and fit very well within the system we had at the time. Still, that was a damn good season he had when he finished 4th in MVP voting. I think it was more a function of the team at the time, and he just carried the bulk of the scoring load for a very good passing oriented team that was able to create a lot of open shots. I put his season mostly on Adelman and the rest of the team. We're way too star/player focused these days anyway, so I'm not even really interested in this debate.

His season was a construct, that was entirely manufactured by Vlade Divac. It's not a coincidence that Divac, in the last full season of his sixteen-year career, averaged a career high in assists the season that Stojakovic finished "second in the league" among qualified scorers.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

To not have Cousins as ATLEAST the 3rd best king is a joke. Who is better? I have a hard time deciding between Cousins and Webber for the top spot. The only reason I only give it to Webber because the stats don't back up placing Cousins ahead of him. I'm not at all convinced that Webber was actually a better player than Cousins is right now. This opinion is unpopular.

First of All™, "who is better" is a different question than the OP is asking, IMO. Second of all, four years is not enough. Sorry, it just isn't. Cousins has not done enough in four years to have surpassed what Stojakovic did for the Kings in his career. And, in case my previous contributions to this thread haven't been clear enough, I really don't like Peja Stojakovic, so understand that that statement is definitely not coming from homer-space.

If Cousins announces his retirement today, he would not be the third-best Sacramento King. And yeah, that is playing kingsboi's "what if" game, but assuming that he's going to continue to play like he has for an indeterminate period of time, and not ever get injured, or traded, or just fed up and leave, is also playing the "what if" game, just from the other direction.

 

[King Baller]

Well after struggling with this question a bit here is what I came up with:

Cousins: Might be the greatest King of all time. Too early in his storied career to make this list.
Ron Ron: He is one of the best to ever wear a Kings uniform. But not the third greatest King. Even though he put an under performing Kings team on his back and took them to the Playoffs.
Peja, Vlade and Mike Bibby: I can make a case for all three.
Actually I can make a case for any player on the list and a few others like Brian Grant.
But I'm going to cheat and choose Rick Adelman Rick is/was the consummate Players Coach and got along with all these guys. Including Ron Ron and Bonzi Wells. What a head trip that must have been.

Yep, Rick Adelman

KB

 

[King Baller]

As a side note I think it is high time Rick was shown some Love from the new Kings management.

 

[The Hammer]

His season was a construct, that was entirely manufactured by Vlade Divac. It's not a coincidence that Divac, in the last full season of his sixteen-year career, averaged a career high in assists the season that Stojakovic finished "second in the league" among qualified scorers.

I don't know if I'd go that far... but yes, Vlade largely determined the overall success of that team, especially the way the offense was set up to go through the high post.

 

[The_Jamal]

To not have Cousins as ATLEAST the 3rd best king is a joke. Who is better? I have a hard time deciding between Cousins and Webber for the top spot. The only reason I only give it to Webber because the stats don't back up placing Cousins ahead of him. I'm not at all convinced that Webber was actually a better player than Cousins is right now. This opinion is unpopular.

The difference in these sort of games though is Cousins doesn't have the rest of his career. He's essentially graded as having a 4 year career when judging in all-time greats.

That said, this is Vlade for me. Not as statistically dominant as some of the other guys, but his arrival and him leaving basically coincided with the great era in Kings basketball. Too good for me to pass him up here.