Jrue Holiday?

twslam07

twslam07

All-Star
While taking a pause from trying to create trades, scenarios, etc. where we can add Porter to our core, a name popped into my head that I haven’t really seen discussed here before: Jrue Holiday.

The deal I was thinking about would be:

Giles
Bogdanovic

For

Holiday

Holiday is a huge upgrade over Bogdanovic as a secondary ball handler/playmaker and overall player. I’m always going to question the potential of a Bagley/Giles frontcourt when defenses start to put the clamps on towards the end of games or in the playoffs.

You would only play Fox, Hield, and Holiday at PG & SG (32 min per player or slight variations within). We would always have a great PG on the floor, and we’d have 48 minutes of elite PG defense.

Similar to how Barnes comes off the books when it’s time to resign Hield, Holiday comes off the books when it’s time to resign Bagley. I think capwise it’s doable to keep a Fox, Hield, Holiday, Barnes, Bagley, and Cauley-Stein for a long time if we chose to.

I have my own reservations since we’re either sitting a $25 mil player on the bench to close out games or one of Fox/Hield. So I’m not sure it’s the best use of that cap space but he’d give us arguably one of the best backcourt rotations in the league.
 
Between Jrue and Barnes, you'd be investing a hell of a lot of money into guys who'd be your 4th and 5th options.

Plus you'd be really hard pressed to find playing time for Jrue, with him being 6'4", i.e. Buddy-size. Bogi at least has enough size to (in an ideal world) not get demolished playing some minutes at the 3. I'm also not sure Jrue would appreciate getting relegated to 6th man at this stage in his career and there is no way in hell we're benching Fox or Buddy for him. Plus this pace might not be a good match for a guy who's had some fairly serious injury issues in the past. I really really like Jrue as a player but not necessarily for this team.


Also I have the distinct feeling that we'd wind up regretting trading Harry Giles like almost immediately upon moving him.
 
63royals said:
Giles & Bogdanovic for Holiday? Seriously? I don't care what the salaries or the numbers are -- I wouldn't trade either one of them straight up for Jrue, let alone both.
Click to expand...

Holiday is 5x the player Bogdan is. Better scorer, rebounder and passer. Not to mention he's in another universe when it comes to defense. Only problem is he plays the same position as our two best players. I wouldn't do the trade because I wouldn't want to give up Giles at this point for a guy who is semi redundant on this team but Holiday would be the best player on the Kings. It's just his minutes would take away from our other two best players so the trade wouldn't have as big an impact as it would if he played another position.
 
Not the right deal for us, despite how big of a stud Jrue Holiday is. He's basically become a lite-version of Gary Payton. But you're basically forcing us to run those 3 at the end of games, which probably isnt the best use of our resources. Also, Im not trading Giles for much at this point and Jrue isnt one of those pieces.
 
ESP47 said:
Holiday is 5x the player Bogdan is. Better scorer, rebounder and passer. Not to mention he's in another universe when it comes to defense. Only problem is he plays the same position as our two best players. I wouldn't do the trade because I wouldn't want to give up Giles at this point for a guy who is semi redundant on this team but Holiday would be the best player on the Kings. It's just his minutes would take away from our other two best players so the trade wouldn't have as big an impact as it would if he played another position.
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I’m not sure I follow you on there not being enough minutes.

Fox (34 min) / Holiday (14 min)
Hield (28 min) / Holiday (20 min)
Barnes (30 min / Hield (6 min)

And that’s if you’re wanting to play each 34 min. You might just keep everyone at 32 min considering the pace and who we get to backup Barnes.
 
twslam07 said:
I’m not sure I follow you on there not being enough minutes.

Fox (34 min) / Holiday (14 min)
Hield (28 min) / Holiday (20 min)
Barnes (30 min / Hield (6 min)

And that’s if you’re wanting to play each 34 min. You might just keep everyone at 32 min considering the pace and who we get to backup Barnes.
Click to expand...

I mean Jrue and Buddy could probably take most 3s on defense. I'd rather have Jrue on guys KD and Kawhi over like 98% of other viable defenders.

If they wanted Bogdan+2nds and we just eat Jrues salary, I'd probably be interested in the deal. Not going to find a player close to Jrue's caliber sign here.
 
ESP47 said:
Holiday is 5x the player Bogdan is. ...
Click to expand...
Oh really? According to whom? A bunch of guys on Twitter? RealGM? How many of those people thought the Kings would have a season like this? Why should those opinions be taken as serious evidence of anything?
ESP47 said:
... It's just his minutes would take away from our other two best players so the trade wouldn't have as big an impact as it would if he played another position.
Click to expand...
Bingo!!! You attacked my post and proved my point all in the same paragraph. I've never heard of a number to measure intangibles, and we have that in spades this year. I think even considering a trade that could mess up those intangibles is a bad idea right now.
 
I think on paper the trade could work, but I'm not trading Harry right now unless it's for a can't miss player. I just think he has way too much of a chance to be a special player. Jrue is what he is....not going to develop into anything else. Nice player, but not a star.
 
63royals said:
Oh really? According to whom? A bunch of guys on Twitter? RealGM? How many of those people thought the Kings would have a season like this? Why should those opinions be taken as serious evidence of anything?

Bingo!!! You attacked my post and proved my point all in the same paragraph. I've never heard of a number to measure intangibles, and we have that in spades this year. I think even considering a trade that could mess up those intangibles is a bad idea right now.
Click to expand...

Have you watched Bogdan this year? He hasn't been good. Don't see why you feel the need to bring up the Kings fandom's victim complex over what people outside Sacramento think of us. Holiday is better now and has the more decorated career. It's not even close.

Bogdan for Holiday straight up is a no-brainer, but it ain't Bogdan that's the big hangup in this trade.
 
The Effort Police said:
Have you watched Bogdan this year? He hasn't been good. Don't see why you feel the need to bring up the Kings fandom's victim complex over what people outside Sacramento think of us. Holiday is better now and has the more decorated career. It's not even close.

Bogdan for Holiday straight up is a no-brainer, but it ain't Bogdan that's the big hangup in this trade.
Click to expand...
He definitely has been struggling this year -- no argument on that. I suspect it's either because of the length of the season, or that it might be some kind of nagging injury.

It sounds like most of the comparisons are Jrue at his best vs. Bogdan right now. Is that really a fair comparison? We've all seen Bogdan play much better. Plus, as you point out, the proposed trade is Jrue for both Bogdan and Giles. It sounds like you agree with me that taking that seriously as a proposed trade is ludicrous.

I don't do fantasy basketball, and I've thought some of the proposed trades on here sounded like the came primarily from a fantasy basketball point of view, where players are swapped like baseball cards. It's not nearly as easy in real life. Swapping players to get an increase in a couple of statistical categories, without considering the effects on team chemistry, is a recipe for disaster in real life.

We have a really good team team right now, that's very clearly heading in the right direction. Let's see what they can do, first, and stop playing tinker toys with the roster.
 
63royals said:
Oh really? According to whom? A bunch of guys on Twitter? RealGM? How many of those people thought the Kings would have a season like this? Why should those opinions be taken as serious evidence of anything?

Bingo!!! You attacked my post and proved my point all in the same paragraph. I've never heard of a number to measure intangibles, and we have that in spades this year. I think even considering a trade that could mess up those intangibles is a bad idea right now.
Click to expand...

According to every statistic out there whether it's your standard box score statistics or any advanced metric. Holiday is flat out better and it's not even close. Not sure why you're so defensive about it.
 
ESP47 said:
According to every statistic out there whether it's your standard box score statistics or any advanced metric. Holiday is flat out better and it's not even close. Not sure why you're so defensive about it.
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Jrue definitely has better numbers now. No question about that, but that's not my issue. Actually, this all stems from my reaction to the original post -- why in (expletive deleted) would anybody care about tinkering with the roster in the midst of such a great season? I should have known better. If you want to focus on Jrue vs. Bogdan, fine. I have no interest in participating in a debate about a trade that isn't going to happen. That's not criticizing you -- I just have a different perspective. I still think that Jrue for Bogdan and Giles would be the height of insanity. And you're still just citing numbers and ignoring intangibles.

Jrue better than Bogdan right now? -- right, you win
Jrue for Bogdan and Giles? -- If you agree that this is ludicrous, then there's nothing to debate. If you want to argue that this makes sense because of the numbers? Nothing to debate because I think anyone who would take that position isn't worth arguing with.
 
No way in in the fiery depths would I trade Giles for the MASSIVELY overpaid Holiday yo fill the backup gaurd spot.
Giles has star written all over him. Giles is also brimming with all the passion that so utterly lacks in Jrue.
 
ESP47 said:
According to every statistic out there whether it's your standard box score statistics or any advanced metric. Holiday is flat out better and it's not even close. Not sure why you're so defensive about it.
Click to expand...

Stats also show he has an injury history and will be 29 years old in June.
 
ESP47 said:
According to every statistic out there whether it's your standard box score statistics or any advanced metric. Holiday is flat out better and it's not even close. Not sure why you're so defensive about it.
Click to expand...

My favorite counter-point of all-time is "WHY SHOULD I LISTEN TO STATISTICAL DATA AND MATH. MY EYES ARE CLEARLY A BETTER JUDGE OF TALENT."
 
kingsfan1984 said:
No way in in the fiery depths would I trade Giles for the MASSIVELY overpaid Holiday yo fill the backup gaurd spot.
Giles has star written all over him. Giles is also brimming with all the passion that so utterly lacks in Jrue.
Click to expand...

Huh? People are aware he's legitimately one of the best defensive players in the NBA right? Who has developed as a quality 2nd-3rd option offensively?
 
The_Jamal said:
My favorite counter-point of all-time is "WHY SHOULD I LISTEN TO STATISTICAL DATA AND MATH. MY EYES ARE CLEARLY A BETTER JUDGE OF TALENT."
Click to expand...
Wow -- talk about missing the point. The Billy Beane philosophy proved long ago that the numbers give us vast amounts of significant information about the game. To me, this seems like a case of the pendulum swinging too far the other way. If you look at the chemistry of this team, this is a classic example of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts. All these numbers justifying the trade have completely ignored that. Anyone who thinks that the numbers tell the whole story is as locked in their way of seeing, as the old timers that Billy Beane had to disprove.

Could you explain where these people are who say that statistics are irrelevant are? As far as I can tell, there aren't of them here. If you can't even talk about potential effects on team chemistry, and then want to mock everyone who doesn't agree with the 'only numbers matter' approach, you've demonstrated your ignorance in spectacular fashion.
 
63royals said:
Jrue definitely has better numbers now. No question about that, but that's not my issue. Actually, this all stems from my reaction to the original post -- why in (expletive deleted) would anybody care about tinkering with the roster in the midst of such a great season? I should have known better. If you want to focus on Jrue vs. Bogdan, fine. I have no interest in participating in a debate about a trade that isn't going to happen. That's not criticizing you -- I just have a different perspective. I still think that Jrue for Bogdan and Giles would be the height of insanity. And you're still just citing numbers and ignoring intangibles.

Jrue better than Bogdan right now? -- right, you win
Jrue for Bogdan and Giles? -- If you agree that this is ludicrous, then there's nothing to debate. If you want to argue that this makes sense because of the numbers? Nothing to debate because I think anyone who would take that position isn't worth arguing with.
Click to expand...

Umm... this is a .500 team. It's more than we all expected, but it's not in its final form and it's not just going to waltz its way into a championship. It's not some sacred cow dynasty that we shouldn't dare tinker with.
 
The Effort Police said:
Umm... this is a .500 team. It's more than we all expected, but it's not in its final form and it's not just going to waltz its way into a championship. It's not some sacred cow dynasty that we shouldn't dare tinker with.
Click to expand...
Since when did I say this roster is perfect? Of course we want to always be looking for ways to improve. Trading Bogdanovic and Giles to get Holiday is NOT the way to go about doing it. That seems pretty straightforward to me.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Considering that Jrue's season ended with yet another injury-induced surgery, I'm not really sure how anyone could look at devoting the amount of resources you'd need to invest to get him.

When healthy, he's really good but he's very rarely ever healthy.
 
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