James Harden, will Monte even try?

#31
If I was forced to choose between the two? Leonard 100 times out of 100 over Harden.

That said, I’m firmly anti-Leonard as well. Ever since his team hid him in a broom closet to keep the Spurs from finding him for a meeting during his injury fiasco.
Im taking harden he’ll show up to work why should we care if he’s partying. Kawhi however plays when he wants, subs in and out as he wants, canceled practices, and is purely overrated
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#32
Im taking harden he’ll show up to work why should we care if he’s partying. Kawhi however plays when he wants, subs in and out as he wants, canceled practices, and is purely overrated
The thing is that they're completely opposite players in that Kawhi doesn't really show up for the regular season but will turn up in the playoffs and play like Michael Jordan while James Harden will completely dominate the regular season and then fizzle out in the playoffs when other teams start trying to defend him.
 
#33
The thing is that they're completely opposite players in that Kawhi doesn't really show up for the regular season but will turn up in the playoffs and play like Michael Jordan while James Harden will completely dominate the regular season and then fizzle out in the playoffs when other teams start trying to defend him.
Well harden didn’t have the benifit of playing on absolute stacked teams since draft night. Harden can’t afford to miss time or they would be no playoffs for him. Meanwhile Kawhi can while his team doesn’t miss a damn beat. Harden’s rockets were up 3-2 on the KD warriors no team has come close to that. Kawhi gets a lot of credit while harden gets blame it’s actually wild. Imagine all the other top guys if they got to rest while playing on stacked teams, come may they’d be killing as well
 
#34
The thing is that they're completely opposite players in that Kawhi doesn't really show up for the regular season but will turn up in the playoffs and play like Michael Jordan while James Harden will completely dominate the regular season and then fizzle out in the playoffs when other teams start trying to defend him.
I don't think the data bears this out completely..

There have some notable dud performances on Harden's resume (that 14pt Game 5 in 2015 against GS for instance, a 10pt Game 6 against the Spurs in 2017) which naturally are going to be games that are hard to forget, but he's still putting up about 30 points, 6-7 assists, and 5-6 rebounds per game every year in the playoffs. And even in that 2015 series against the eventual Champs he poured in 45pts in Game 4. There is a notable fall-off in his playoff shooting percentages in 4 of the last 5 years which is probably the direct result of facing better defenses keyed in on stopping him. On the other hand, he's been in the playoffs in all of his 11 NBA seasons so far and I don't think there's another player who carries more of the offensive workload for their team.

It is rather curious that Kawhi has managed to build the reputation he has with a rather thin resume as an elite player. But what is definitely apparent is that for the last 3 years at least Kawhi has shown up in the playoffs and played like the best player in the world for those few weeks. And that's really where legends build their reputation. Harden's playoff peak isn't as high, especially relative to his regular season production, and he does have a frustrating habit of balling out for the first 4 or 5 games of a series before imploding spectacularly in elimination games, but it isn't like he disappears in the playoffs. It's probably more accurate to say that we expect NBA superstars to find another level in the playoffs and Harden has only shown that sporadically. Most of the time he's the same guy in the playoffs that he is in the regular season.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#35
I don't think the data bears this out completely..

There have some notable dud performances on Harden's resume (that 14pt Game 5 in 2015 against GS for instance, a 10pt Game 6 against the Spurs in 2017) which naturally are going to be games that are hard to forget, but he's still putting up about 30 points, 6-7 assists, and 5-6 rebounds per game every year in the playoffs. And even in that 2015 series against the eventual Champs he poured in 45pts in Game 4. There is a notable fall-off in his playoff shooting percentages in 4 of the last 5 years which is probably the direct result of facing better defenses keyed in on stopping him. On the other hand, he's been in the playoffs in all of his 11 NBA seasons so far and I don't think there's another player who carries more of the offensive workload for their team.

It is rather curious that Kawhi has managed to build the reputation he has with a rather thin resume as an elite player. But what is definitely apparent is that for the last 3 years at least Kawhi has shown up in the playoffs and played like the best player in the world for those few weeks. And that's really where legends build their reputation. Harden's playoff peak isn't as high, especially relative to his regular season production, and he does have a frustrating habit of balling out for the first 4 or 5 games of a series before imploding spectacularly in elimination games, but it isn't like he disappears in the playoffs. It's probably more accurate to say that we expect NBA superstars to find another level in the playoffs and Harden has only shown that sporadically. Most of the time he's the same guy in the playoffs that he is in the regular season.
Fair enough. The national narratives, for whatever they're worth, would largely have Kawhi in the playoff legends category and Harden in the T-Mac "Dudes who can't quite get it done in the postseason" category. Though Kawhi's rapid decline midway through the Nuggets series last season belongs precisely in the playoffs zero category.

Of course this discussion is pointless because both players are pretty much too old to fit the long-term competitiveness timeline Monte has talked about since taking over the Kings and I don't think either guy would want to come here and I don't think the Kings have enough assets beyond fireselling every draft pick we have over the next decade a la Brooklyn-for-KG-and-Pierce and is a route I don't see us going down.
 
#36
Fair enough. The national narratives, for whatever they're worth, would largely have Kawhi in the playoff legends category and Harden in the T-Mac "Dudes who can't quite get it done in the postseason" category. Though Kawhi's rapid decline midway through the Nuggets series last season belongs precisely in the playoffs zero category.

Of course this discussion is pointless because both players are pretty much too old to fit the long-term competitiveness timeline Monte has talked about since taking over the Kings and I don't think either guy would want to come here and I don't think the Kings have enough assets beyond fireselling every draft pick we have over the next decade a la Brooklyn-for-KG-and-Pierce and is a route I don't see us going down.
Harden plays on stack teams like spurs, raptors, or clippers that narrative changes
 
#42
Crazy how some of y’all would rather miss the playoffs for 5 more seasons than trade for harden. We’re a playoff team with him alone put the blind hate away and respect the best offensive player in the league
 
#44
Fair enough. The national narratives, for whatever they're worth, would largely have Kawhi in the playoff legends category and Harden in the T-Mac "Dudes who can't quite get it done in the postseason" category. Though Kawhi's rapid decline midway through the Nuggets series last season belongs precisely in the playoffs zero category.

Of course this discussion is pointless because both players are pretty much too old to fit the long-term competitiveness timeline Monte has talked about since taking over the Kings and I don't think either guy would want to come here and I don't think the Kings have enough assets beyond fireselling every draft pick we have over the next decade a la Brooklyn-for-KG-and-Pierce and is a route I don't see us going down.
Agreed. Houston is asking for too much given their complete lack of leverage and if Ben Simmons is really on the table, they're not getting a better offer than that anyway, certainly not from us. I'm more optimistic about our team after watching today's game and seeing Fox, Haliburton, and Hield all getting up on ball-handlers and moving their feet with purpose. You can win with an ensemble but you have to do it on both ends and our defensive pedigree is somewhere between dismal and... uh, whatever is below dismal so I'm still going to take some convincing. I'm willing to believe that a Fox and Haliburton lineup is going places if they can help lead us to an average defensive rating this year.

Back to Harden though....

When a guy who has led the league in scoring the last 3 years is available and you haven't made the playoffs in over a decade I think you're fooling yourself if you don't at least look into it. It's not like our young guys aren't without their own flaws. Can you squint and see a future where Fox and Haliburton are better than peak James Harden? Only Wilt and MJ have had better scoring seasons than he had 2 years ago and he was off to an even better pace last season before cooling off in early 2020. But $40 million a year, over 30, highest usage% in the league, and lack of impact on defense are all reasons to say no. Ultimately I agree that the argument is academic because we don't have what Houston wants and we certainly don't have what Harden wants. I have to agree with @Joshoua on this one though that some of y'all are over the top with the Harden criticism. He's a Hall of Fame player with several good years left in the tank.
 
#45
He would make the team better at what cost though? And if he stopped getting calls - which, we're Sacramento so?

I will fully admit I hate the guy and can't root for him so it's not like I pretend to be free of bias. But when every other star player that plays with him wants him gone or to be shipped, I am not sure what that says. You can say Westbrook is quirky/selfish too but is CP3?
 
#46
Agreed. Houston is asking for too much given their complete lack of leverage and if Ben Simmons is really on the table, they're not getting a better offer than that anyway, certainly not from us. I'm more optimistic about our team after watching today's game and seeing Fox, Haliburton, and Hield all getting up on ball-handlers and moving their feet with purpose. You can win with an ensemble but you have to do it on both ends and our defensive pedigree is somewhere between dismal and... uh, whatever is below dismal so I'm still going to take some convincing. I'm willing to believe that a Fox and Haliburton lineup is going places if they can help lead us to an average defensive rating this year.

Back to Harden though....

When a guy who has led the league in scoring the last 3 years is available and you haven't made the playoffs in over a decade I think you're fooling yourself if you don't at least look into it. It's not like our young guys aren't without their own flaws. Can you squint and see a future where Fox and Haliburton are better than peak James Harden? Only Wilt and MJ have had better scoring seasons than he had 2 years ago and he was off to an even better pace last season before cooling off in early 2020. But $40 million a year, over 30, highest usage% in the league, and lack of impact on defense are all reasons to say no. Ultimately I agree that the argument is academic because we don't have what Houston wants and we certainly don't have what Harden wants. I have to agree with @Joshoua on this one though that some of y'all are over the top with the Harden criticism. He's a Hall of Fame player with several good years left in the tank.
I guess some just wanna watch the same bull crap for the next 5 years. We’re literally no closer to the playoffs than we were a couple years back we suck Fox ain’t getting us now where and Bagley is gonna get paid off potential he’ll never get too. If you can bamboozle houston to give us harden for buddy/Bagley and picks you do it. Enough already with thi/ crap man
 
#47
He would make the team better at what cost though? And if he stopped getting calls - which, we're Sacramento so?

I will fully admit I hate the guy and can't root for him so it's not like I pretend to be free of bias. But when every other star player that plays with him wants him gone or to be shipped, I am not sure what that says. You can say Westbrook is quirky/selfish too but is CP3?
Westbrook is a scrub now and the opener forced the CP trade, they won a ring if co doesn’t get hurt vs the warriors. I doubt he suddenly stops receiving calls if he’s here

And at what cost you say? The cost of an overrated prospect in Bagley and Kobe I mean buddy Hield and some picks. Not that bug of a risk when you actually think about it.
 
#48
Westbrook is a scrub now and the opener forced the CP trade, they won a ring if co doesn’t get hurt vs the warriors. I doubt he suddenly stops receiving calls if he’s here

And at what cost you say? The cost of an overrated prospect in Bagley and Kobe I mean buddy Hield and some picks. Not that bug of a risk when you actually think about it.
When he bolts the team and we are giving unprotected firsts for years ??? If he turns Fox and Halliburton into spoiled brats who abuse everyone in management? I think they would demand Fox or Halliburton though.
 
#49
Westbrook is a scrub now and the opener forced the CP trade, they won a ring if co doesn’t get hurt vs the warriors. I doubt he suddenly stops receiving calls if he’s here

And at what cost you say? The cost of an overrated prospect in Bagley and Kobe I mean buddy Hield and some picks. Not that bug of a risk when you actually think about it.
fine lets go with your logic, we trade fox, buddy, Bagley, and 3 firsts for harden. We make the playoffs and get bounced in the first round both time, harden then leaves and we are right back to where we started but now with no young talent or picks. You really gonna feel better cuz we made a win now move? If we had prime Demarcus right now and were talking about adding another superstar to put us over the top that would be a different story.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#50
Westbrook is a scrub now and the opener forced the CP trade, they won a ring if co doesn’t get hurt vs the warriors. I doubt he suddenly stops receiving calls if he’s here

And at what cost you say? The cost of an overrated prospect in Bagley and Kobe I mean buddy Hield and some picks. Not that bug of a risk when you actually think about it.
It would take more than Bagley/Buddy/Picks to get it done.

Plus, with the way Harden has come into the season grossly out of shape for a 6’5” guard and is already nearing the end of his prime, you’re probably only getting like two or three good years of Harden at the most. This isn’t a Lebron scenario where the dude is so much bigger, faster, and stronger than anyone else that he could lose a step and remain the greatest player to ever live. This is a chubby malcontent who uses what little laterally quickness and athleticism he has to lure guys into fouls and is already a subpar defender. Harden has been a top five player in the league over the last half decade but how much longer will that last?
 
#51
When he bolts the team and we are giving unprotected firsts for years ??? If he turns Fox and Halliburton into spoiled brats who abuse everyone in management? I think they would demand Fox or Halliburton though.
lol so that hit piece got to your heart not kawhi canceling practice as he feels


fine lets go with your logic, we trade fox, buddy, Bagley, and 3 firsts for harden. We make the playoffs and get bounced in the first round both time, harden then leaves and we are right back to where we started but now with no young talent or picks. You really gonna feel better cuz we made a win now move? If we had prime Demarcus right now and were talking about adding another superstar to put us over the top that would be a different story.
We trade Bagley,Buddy, top 3 protected 2021 pick, and unprotected 2022 pick that’s way more than enough. If Fox is as good is your guys claim we Atleast make the second round of the playoffs.
in two years LA/Miami/Dallas don’t have cap space as long as we’re making the playoffs I believe the city can win him over. If he leaves we build around Fox/Haliburton I’m not sweating trading Buddy/Bagley for 2 playoff runs. Hell Beal has one two years left maybe we get harden and flip Fox for Beal next year and go Beal/Harden for 5 years.

It would take more than Bagley/Buddy/Picks to get it done.

Plus, with the way Harden has come into the season grossly out of shape for a 6’5” guard and is already nearing the end of his prime, you’re probably only getting like two or three good years of Harden at the most. This isn’t a Lebron scenario where the dude is so much bigger, faster, and stronger than anyone else that he could lose a step and remain the greatest player to ever live. This is a chubby malcontent who uses what little laterally quickness and athleticism he has to lure guys into fouls and is already a subpar defender. Harden has been a top five player in the league over the last half decade but how much longer will that last?
Hardens game should age gracefully he has 3-5 years left being a top 8 guy
 
#53
We trade Bagley,Buddy, top 3 protected 2021 pick, and unprotected 2022 pick that’s way more than enough.
You know you can't trade back to back picks, right? Also they are not going to allow protections on the pick. And they are going to ask for our best player in return. You realize that Philly is having trouble getting it done even by including Simmons? Considering how lowly you rate Bagley and Buddy, you should understand Houston isn't going to do your deal. Also you saw what MIL gave up for Holliday? And he is not in Harden's league.

We'd be looking at unprotected first rounders 3 and 5 years out, minimum. When Harden is gone from the team and we are picking early in the lottery again. And our cupboards are bare.
 
#54
All of this misses the point.

Houston did everything Harden asked to keep him happy but he still wants out because he doesn't think they can win a title.

So why on earth would anyone think he'd accept a trade to the Kings (that likely just dealt Fox, Haliburton, Bagley, 3 FRPs and two pick swaps to get him) and be content to get bounced out of the 1st round for two years?
 
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#55
All of this misses the point.

Houston did everything Harden asked to keep him happy but he still wants out because he doesn't think they can win a title.

So why on earth would anyone think he'd accept a trade to the Kings (that likely just dealt Fox, Haliburton, Bagley, 3 FRPs and two pick swaps to get him) and be content to get bounced out of the 1st round for two years?
Looking closely at the Houston situation, I don't think Harden's trade demand is about the team being uncompetitive. Re-building teams don't bring in Wall and Cousins unless they're banking on a delayed tank when injuries end both of their seasons early and I'm not that cynical. Daryl Morey and Mike D'Antoni both left in the off-season and all the fingers are pointed at owner Tilman Feritta as the catalyst for those decisions. That leaves Harden as the last man standing and he doesn't want to play for the owner who broke up his squad. The Rockets offered him $50 million a year to sign a 2 year extension and he turned them down. That might be because of the Covid-19 related salary cap adjustment but I don't know that Harden turns down $100 million in guaranteed money for just 2 seasons of basketball with Morey and D'Antoni still there.
 
#56
Looking closely at the Houston situation, I don't think Harden's trade demand is about the team being uncompetitive. Re-building teams don't bring in Wall and Cousins unless they're banking on a delayed tank when injuries end both of their seasons early and I'm not that cynical. Daryl Morey and Mike D'Antoni both left in the off-season and all the fingers are pointed at owner Tilman Feritta as the catalyst for those decisions. That leaves Harden as the last man standing and he doesn't want to play for the owner who broke up his squad. The Rockets offered him $50 million a year to sign a 2 year extension and he turned them down. That might be because of the Covid-19 related salary cap adjustment but I don't know that Harden turns down $100 million in guaranteed money for just 2 seasons of basketball with Morey and D'Antoni still there.

There's probably a lot of things involved. It's been reported that Harden wants out in part because he doesn't want to play for the Rockets with Fertitta as the owner.

But the fact remains that the Kings would have to clear the cupboard to get Harden due to the lack of young talent on the team which doesn't really present a path to building a contender around him.

I can't see Harden being happy to waste two of the last few years of his prime getting bounced out of the first round in Sacramento.