Is Kobe Really Clutch???

[Peter_Gibbons]

I live in LA and I get to see all the laker games. Contrary to what the media and laker fans like to believe, Kobe routinely falters down the stretch. Kobe's "game winner" shots shooting percentage is a lowly 25% for the last 5 yrs. YET, kobe is billed as the best closer of the NBA. While other players such as Lebron, Melo etc are billed as not clutch enough when they both have a much higher percentage.

Example: Last nights game against the Blazers, Kobe "in the final minute alone he missed a key 3-pointer, had a crucial turnover and was off on another 3."
http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/9442588/Kobe,-Lakers-lose-again-in-Portland


MEDIA : After choking down the stretch, SportsCenter reports the game by showing a few clips of the Blazers scoring, then shows a kobe made basket with 6 mins left in the game and says "4th qtr, who else? kobe with the basket". That is news reporting at its worse. They did not show or mention a word on how kobe choked away the game at the end and actually portrayed him as being clutch once again in the 4th. They do this routinely. When kobe does make a game winner, its a big headline. When kobe chokes, they use selective reporting and leave it out. Its a shame. Because if I didn't get to watch the game and just caught the report on SportCenter, I would've thought Kobe had another good game while his teammates choked again.

Kobe is NOT clutch or the best closer in the game by any means.

 

[Gargamel]

Not the best of years for this Fox News article. He's been nails with that same shot this year, ask your local Rockets or Spurs fan. The angle that's harder for them to condense into a headline is that it's a very tough shot that he will go for about 3/4ths of the time, and he won't get it without at least one guy in his face (2004 in the same building).

Bron and Melo are not comparable. They don't want to take that shot, Bron doesn't have the range, Melo doesn't have the elevation. They aren't defended the same way as Kobe. Further, forcing Bron into a 3 is what teams WANT. Bron won a game at Oakland being defended 1:1 in the midrange area on the weak side by Turiaf. Kobe would NEVER get that look.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Not the best of years for this Fox News article. He's been nails with that same shot this year, ask your local Rockets or Spurs fan. The angle that's harder for them to condense into a headline is that it's a very tough shot that he will go for about 3/4ths of the time, and he won't get it without at least one guy in his face (2004 in the same building).

Bron and Melo are not comparable. They don't want to take that shot, Bron doesn't have the range, Melo doesn't have the elevation. They aren't defended the same way as Kobe. Further, forcing Bron into a 3 is what teams WANT. Bron won a game at Oakland being defended 1:1 in the midrange area on the weak side by Turiaf. Kobe would NEVER get that look.

Come on now, you trying to say Lebron doesn't get doubled or tripled with the game on the line? I've seen him get mobbed by the D all the time. Kobe does not hit game winners 3/4th the time. Regarding range, Lebron's 3pt % is 34% while kobe's is 35%.




Game Winners between 2003-2009 season

LEBRON JAMES - (17/50)=34%
RAY ALLEN - (15/39)=39%
KOBE BRYANT - (14/56)=25%
CARMELO ANTHONY - (13/27)=48%


This may pee off a lot of Kobe fans, but facts are facts. No matter how you want to picture kobe to be or how the media talks him up, he made 14/56 = 25%. Thats the lowest percentage by far. A guy that makes 25% of his game winning shots is not clutch. We can argue about who got doubled or how his shots are tougher etc etc. Those are all subjective things. FACTS are FACTS.

 

[tradepeja]

Kobe Bryant is overrated by the media? News at 11.

 

[VF21]

Is Kobe really clutch? No offense to the OP, but I cannot imagine a topic of less interest to the majority of people on this board...


I know it's considered bad form to answer a question with another question, but I have to ask...who cares? If you really want to argue this point, I'd suggest trying a Lakers board.

 

[HighTopKicks]

Come on now, you trying to say Lebron doesn't get doubled or tripled with the game on the line? I've seen him get mobbed by the D all the time. Kobe does not hit game winners 3/4th the time. Regarding range, Lebron's 3pt % is 34% while kobe's is 35%.




Game Winners between 2003-2009 season

LEBRON JAMES - (17/50)=34%
RAY ALLEN - (15/39)=39%
KOBE BRYANT - (14/56)=25%
CARMELO ANTHONY - (13/27)=48%


This may pee off a lot of Kobe fans, but facts are facts. No matter how you want to picture kobe to be or how the media talks him up, he made 14/56 = 25%. Thats the lowest percentage by far. A guy that makes 25% of his game winning shots is not clutch. We can argue about who got doubled or how his shots are tougher etc etc. Those are all subjective things. FACTS are FACTS.

Link please.

 

[coolhandluke]

Here is the link: http://www.82games.com/gamewinningshots.htm

Still, I would say Kobe is a great, great option when it comes to performing in the clutch in playoff games.

Btw, I half-expected Gargamel to put up his video of Kobe clutch shots again.

 

[Larry89]

I think that game winning shots stat is stuid IMO

There are much more things that are clutch than just a shot, what about a steal and dunk in the last minute of a game? What about the player that takes over in the last few minutes of a game..

There have been plenty of clutch shots before the last 24 seconds of a game and within the last 4 minutes of a game that Kobe has taken and made

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Is Kobe really clutch? No offense to the OP, but I cannot imagine a topic of less interest to the majority of people on this board...


I know it's considered bad form to answer a question with another question, but I have to ask...who cares? If you really want to argue this point, I'd suggest trying a Lakers board.

With all due respect, I think kobe is a interesting topic on many boards. Remember, the whole arco was suppose to be laker fans . If I posted this in a lakers board, you know that it will just be a flame thread as they will protect their fav player. I'm just in for some non bias discussion. Discussion backed up by hard facts.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

I think that game winning shots stat is stuid IMO

There are much more things that are clutch than just a shot, what about a steal and dunk in the last minute of a game? What about the player that takes over in the last few minutes of a game..

There have been plenty of clutch shots before the last 24 seconds of a game and within the last 4 minutes of a game that Kobe has taken and made

Yes I agree, being clutch is not just the last shot. But a game winning shot is the most pressured situation and thats what people want to make kobe out to be.. the best at making game winners. But apparently he is not. I don't know how the media can always cover that. As I stated, he choked down the stretch in yesterday's game. But good ol espn sportscenter did not mention a thing about that. Instead, mentioned "4th qtr, who else..." for kobe, making him look clutch in a game when he totally was the opposite.

 

[mac]

I don't see what's wrong with saying "4th quarter, who else". Like do you expect Luke walton or Andrew Bynum to be hitting clutch shots instead? Or maybe Josh powell? Just curious, what is Jordan's % for such "clutch" shots. In any case, I think Kobe is more highly regarded as a closer than a clutch shooter. He'll take over the fourth quarter, not just hit the game winner. And can you provide some examples where people make Kobe out to be a sure win in game winning situations? It's more a circular flow IMO, we all know Kobe is a deadly scorer, if you argue against that you're just plain ignorant. The fact is that he has made many difficult shots while being triple teamed as such as mentioned by a previous poster, and so you assume that he is clutch. The problem with Kobe is he tends to force it too much when it's a clutch situation, because simply put, he can actually make the shot. That said, it may be better for him to pass to open guys instead.

And when he does do that, certain teamates don't even shoot the ball. Ahem Luke Walton.

 

[Gargamel]

Come on now, you trying to say Lebron doesn't get doubled or tripled with the game on the line? I've seen him get mobbed by the D all the time. Kobe does not hit game winners 3/4th the time.

This may pee off a lot of Kobe fans, but facts are facts. No matter how you want to picture kobe to be or how the media talks him up, he made 14/56 = 25%. Thats the lowest percentage by far. A guy that makes 25% of his game winning shots is not clutch. We can argue about who got doubled or how his shots are tougher etc etc. Those are all subjective things. FACTS are FACTS.

Your bolded line is not what I claimed. Read it closer.

Your thread title is talking about clutch shots then you change it to 24-sec game winners. Clutch shots comprise more than game winners with 24 or less on the clock. If you disagree with that, so be it (I doubt you'd be just as willing, tho, to waive any of Bibby's clutch shots that didn't meet those narrow parameters). Being that I actually watch Laker games, I will argue with you you're wrong if you're claiming he's not a clutch player. The defensive behavior of opponents towards Kobe in those situations is proof enough that they and their coaches don't agree with you either.

 

[est.1999]

Kobe melts away in elimination games. And his teams tend to lose by enormous amounts in those games. Nuff said

 

[kupman]

With all due respect, I think kobe is a interesting topic on many boards. Remember, the whole arco was suppose to be laker fans . If I posted this in a lakers board, you know that it will just be a flame thread as they will protect their fav player. I'm just in for some non bias discussion. Discussion backed up by hard facts.

I am one that is interested in this topic. I am not a Kobe fan, but I do have an interest in perceptions and how they can be distorted. Along with this topic, I have often wondered if Kobe and others are as "clutch" or have the "it" factor as much as people believe. It seems that these perceptions can be easily distorted by confirmation bias and availability heuristic.

It does not look like any of those guys are actually "clutch" if that term means they get better with the game on the line. All of them except Carmelo have lower shooting percentages than their averages. Maybe they are no better with the game on the line and they take bad/forced shots with the game on the line because they, and everyone else, presumes that they are somehow clutch. Maybe they should learn from MJ and pass the ball to Steve Kerr or Bobby Hansen at the end of the game.

Thanks for the data you provided. If you have any more please share.

 

[Variant]

I'd say Kobe is clutch. He's the guy in the league I'd fear most taking the last shot....

That said, I think a clutch player is defined by the high profile clutch moments you associate him with. This means playoffs, or, even better NBA Finals. Kobe probably needs to have an MJ type moment to win a series or clinch a big game. He's obviously had some big moments with the Shaq-led teams, but playoff memories I associate with him still are:

• Airballs against the Jazz (obviously a young player here)
• Suns series a few years ago where he hit some big shots. Tim Thomas and the Suns had the last word however.
• Clutch against Detroit in one game during the Finals a few years back, but no one really remembers because Detroit won the series easily
• Epic collapse by the Lakers last year
• Clutch play in the gold medal game during the Olympics

Obviously the guy is a clutch player and relishes taking the big shot, but he needs some new high profile clutch moments to remember him by (on teams where he's the man instead of second to Shaq)...

 

[kings4lyfe32]

I think Kobe is clutch, however I don't think hes the best. That has to be Ray Allen

 

[Aenadin]

if he was clutch he wouldnt have let boston dump 40 plus points on them during the finals.. he wouldnt have let em come from behind...

it doesnt matter how many points game winners and stops you get in a season being clutch is determined at the big dance

and kobe isnt clutch during finals he chokes big time

 

[DocHolliday]

So Lebron is 34% and Kobe is 25%, that isn't much of a difference. The reason Lebron and Kobe are great closers is, because of everything they do BEFORE it's crunch time. They put games out of reach and shut people down before the last few seconds many times.

So 3/4ths of the time that Kobe HAS to take a game winning shot he fails.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Your bolded line is not what I claimed. Read it closer.

Your thread title is talking about clutch shots then you change it to 24-sec game winners. Clutch shots comprise more than game winners with 24 or less on the clock. If you disagree with that, so be it (I doubt you'd be just as willing, tho, to waive any of Bibby's clutch shots that didn't meet those narrow parameters). Being that I actually watch Laker games, I will argue with you you're wrong if you're claiming he's not a clutch player. The defensive behavior of opponents towards Kobe in those situations is proof enough that they and their coaches don't agree with you either.

??? I never said my bold lines were what you claimed. I didn't change anything regarding clutch shots. Shots taken in the last 24 secs (with the game on that line only) are consider as clutch shots in my opinion. Because with the game on the line means its a game winner most of the time. Bibby is clutch, not so much lately. I always liked bibby. Some shots taken earlier in the game CAN be clutch also. But wouldn't the last shots taken with only 24secs left when the game is on the line be the most high pressured? Also, this is the only type of shots that they have hard stats on. They don't have other clutch shots through out the game in the stats because shots taken through out the 4th qtr is subjective as far as it being clutch or not sometimes. So they just try to find a common ground that can be widely accepted.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

I don't see what's wrong with saying "4th quarter, who else". In any case, I think Kobe is more highly regarded as a closer than a clutch shooter. He'll take over the fourth quarter, not just hit the game winner. And can you provide some examples where people make Kobe out to be a sure win in game winning situations?

Nothing wrong to say "4th qtr who else" if the report the whole game. Why do they report the mid of the 4th qtr stuff and leave out the part with the game on the line and kobe choked it away on 3 straight possessions?


Regarding examples, I think anyone that watches the NBA has heard many times the statement from so call experts and anaylsts in some form of "If I have the game on the line, I need 1 last shot to win it all, I'm putting it in kobe bryant's hands". Thats almost always one of the main reason why kobe lovers use to say he is better than Lebron James.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Much as I am loathe to, I have to side with the laker fan. Your definition is insufficient: there is way more to being clutch than just hitting game-winning/buzzer-beating shots.

 

[Jerryaki]

you seem to have a dislike of kobe (no big deal, lots of people on this board do). tons of players in the NBA are talented, and a few supremely so (kobe, lebron, etc.). but it feels like you are trying to use the inverse of a statement (i.e. kobe is not clutch, therefore he is not better than lebron james), which...doesn't work. media types always like to blow things out of proportion for sensational headlines, but it's no mystery who team U.S.A. went to down the stretch to get that gold medal. he may not have taken a game winning shot, but was that fourth quarter clutch?

when lebron has 3 rings himself (which may happen), then by all means trash kobe, but he is one of the most accomplished and talented players in the game. who cares if he's labeled clutch by some arbitrary definition??

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

you seem to have a dislike of kobe (no big deal, lots of people on this board do). tons of players in the NBA are talented, and a few supremely so (kobe, lebron, etc.). but it feels like you are trying to use the inverse of a statement (i.e. kobe is not clutch, therefore he is not better than lebron james), which...doesn't work. media types always like to blow things out of proportion for sensational headlines, but it's no mystery who team U.S.A. went to down the stretch to get that gold medal. he may not have taken a game winning shot, but was that fourth quarter clutch?

when lebron has 3 rings himself (which may happen), then by all means trash kobe, but he is one of the most accomplished and talented players in the game. who cares if he's labeled clutch by some arbitrary definition??

No, this is not another Lebron vs Kobe thread. So I don't know why the off topic arguements are here. This is the thread about the selective reporting and media manipulation that has gotten to a lot of people. The fact that kobe has 3 rings doesn't make him a clutch player. Lets not forget, he was a sidekick to shaq in those runs. Lets see him get 3 being the main guy first. But thats another topic. If you have some facts that hard data like his 25% shooting in game winners, please post and share.

As far as kobe wining that gold medal game, I also remember that both kobe and lebron were getting beat by the Spanish team in the first qtr and they put Wade in to catch up and build a slight lead. Kobe also was the only member on the USA team to shoot lower than 50% in the Olympics. Of course kobe lovers will say that its only because they tripled kobe all the time to leave lebron and wade open.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Kobe melts away in elimination games. And his teams tend to lose by enormous amounts in those games. Nuff said

Yes, I agree. I remember the yr when the lakers had the 4 hall of famers (shaq, malone, payton, kobe) and in do or die elimination game against the Pistons in the finals, Kobe shot 27%. Shaq did his part with a 30, 20 game. And laker fans, please no excuses of kobe being doubled and tripled because in shaq's prime, we all know who their opponents focused their defense on.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Much as I am loathe to, I have to side with the laker fan. Your definition is insufficient: there is way more to being clutch than just hitting game-winning/buzzer-beating shots.

The definition is not just the "game winners" 25% shooting. Thats seems like its the definition to so people here because thats the only one with the organized stats I guess. There are a lot of other evidence such as scoring 1 pt in the second half in an elimination game against the Suns. Shooting 27% in the elimination against the Pistons in the finals. We all know what happen last yr against the Celtics when kobe was in the finals for the first time without shaq.

 

[Oprostaj]

The definition is not just the "game winners" 25% shooting. Thats seems like its the definition to so people here because thats the only one with the organized stats I guess. There are a lot of other evidence such as scoring 1 pt in the second half in an elimination game against the Suns. Shooting 27% in the elimination against the Pistons in the finals. We all know what happen last yr against the Celtics when kobe was in the finals for the first time without shaq.

He was playing the prima dona angle with the suns. The whole "here's what happens when you don't treat me as the main gun and let me shoot 35 times a game and I deffer to my teammates". He shot 27% against arguably one of the greatest defensive teams of this era, all it does is make him human. I find him clutch, would have LBJ take the last shot though. Thing with Kobe is, he can hit the shot as much as he can drive past you and dunk/acrobatic layup it. And stats are, as has been proven before, misleading. Basketball is a sport that has to be watched to be appreciated. Stats do NOT tell the whole story. Maybe he shot under 50% because he's had to rework the way he shoots due to the hand injury? Or maybe he was finally tired? This is a guy that has more mileage on his legs than anybody else at this point in their careers due to all the playoff games he's played. He is, after all, a perimiter player more than anything. He might have been seccond fiddle to Shaq, but Shaq needed him just as much. Kobe is good, and he is clutch. He's a whiny little ***** too but that's another argument. I hate the guy, but respect good game when I see it. If we're going to measure him based on failures, then nobody is clutch. How bout LBJ passing to Donyell Marshall, the 3 point shooting extroirdinare a couple years back?

 

[kingsnation]

Wow. The answer to your question is this: YES - Kobe is clutch. Period.

I can't believe this thread has gone on so long in the first place..

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

He was playing the prima dona angle with the suns. The whole "here's what happens when you don't treat me as the main gun and let me shoot 35 times a game and I deffer to my teammates". He shot 27% against arguably one of the greatest defensive teams of this era, all it does is make him human. I find him clutch, would have LBJ take the last shot though. Thing with Kobe is, he can hit the shot as much as he can drive past you and dunk/acrobatic layup it. And stats are, as has been proven before, misleading. Basketball is a sport that has to be watched to be appreciated. Stats do NOT tell the whole story. Maybe he shot under 50% because he's had to rework the way he shoots due to the hand injury? Or maybe he was finally tired? This is a guy that has more mileage on his legs than anybody else at this point in their careers due to all the playoff games he's played. He is, after all, a perimiter player more than anything. He might have been seccond fiddle to Shaq, but Shaq needed him just as much. Kobe is good, and he is clutch. He's a whiny little ***** too but that's another argument. I hate the guy, but respect good game when I see it. If we're going to measure him based on failures, then nobody is clutch. How bout LBJ passing to Donyell Marshall, the 3 point shooting extroirdinare a couple years back?

I agree with some things but some not. My point about him shooting 27% is he did it on an elimination game. The D was focused on Shaq, and then you have the other potent guys like Malone and Payton. Simply put, he didn't show up to play in a game where big name players are suppose to. Against the Suns, you can say that he didn't shoot on purpose. But it doesn't explain being down by around 30 by half time. Maybe he didn't shoot because he was so pissed off. But as the main guy, he shouldn't allow his team to be down 30 by half time in an elimination game. The game 7 the yr before against the Suns? He shot in the 30s % and were blown out by close to 30 also.

Now, kobe is a good player. No doubt about it. But is he as good as the media makes him? I don't think so. Why is it that he shoots 25% in the closing secs in games but they always argue that kobe would be the guy they want to take the last shot over not just Lebron, but anyone else in the world? This is with the fact that his history shows he would miss 3 out of 4 times. Thats what we are debating. Not whether kobe is a good player. Just want to clarify that.

 

[kingsnation]

Game Winners between 2003-2009 season

LEBRON JAMES - (17/50)=34%
RAY ALLEN - (15/39)=39%
KOBE BRYANT - (14/56)=25%
CARMELO ANTHONY - (13/27)=48%

Listen, I don't like Kobe - but here are the facts: He has taken 6 more GWs than Lebron. 17 more than Allen and 29 more than Carmelo. My guess is that if those others had as many as he has, their % would be lower than his.

Also, remember this - Lebron/Melo entered the league during this time span - so you better believe that they as rookies weren't being guarded as heavily as Kobe was during that same time.

Now I'm done here, my stomach can't take much more of actually defending Kobe.

 

[Oprostaj]

I agree with some things but some not. My point about him shooting 27% is he did it on an elimination game. The D was focused on Shaq, and then you have the other potent guys like Malone and Payton. Simply put, he didn't show up to play in a game where big name players are suppose to. Against the Suns, you can say that he didn't shoot on purpose. But it doesn't explain being down by around 30 by half time. Maybe he didn't shoot because he was so pissed off. But as the main guy, he shouldn't allow his team to be down 30 by half time in an elimination game. The game 7 the yr before against the Suns? He shot in the 30s % and were blown out by close to 30 also.

Now, kobe is a good player. No doubt about it. But is he as good as the media makes him? I don't think so. Why is it that he shoots 25% in the closing secs in games but they always argue that kobe would be the guy they want to take the last shot over not just Lebron, but anyone else in the world? This is with the fact that his history shows he would miss 3 out of 4 times. Thats what we are debating. Not whether kobe is a good player. Just want to clarify that.

Payton and Malone were on the downside of their careers. Actually, at the end of them. Shaq and Kobe were feuding, and chemistry is important when you are at the final stage. Not defending him, just shooting off some counter points. I would have him shoot at the end the same reason I would have Albert Pujols hitting. Basketball is a sport where if a guard shoots 50 % it's considered phenomenal. When you have one shooting as much as Kobe, kind of hard for % to consistently be up there. He is always the focus on defenses, always the one they aim to stop. This DOES play a role. Pujols hits something like .350 Does this means you would not have him hit with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth because he has a 2 out of 3 chance of failing? I know, analogy does not fit greatly, but I would have Kobe take the end shot over any one of those shooters with better percentages, because you KNOW, unless you are playing the clippers, the player will NOT be wide open. If the question is, who takes the game winner if he's set up by another guy, then the list grows. Allen, Pedja, Dirk... so on and so on.

About the Suns series. I was laughing my *** off and here's why : He is and will never be "the man" or "leader" of any team. He is a phenomenal talent with a knack for Basketball. Athletic, can shoot, has that MJ drive that many, including LBJ, lack. But absolutely he would let his team go down by 30. This is the same man that sacrificed his best chance for a championship by kicking out the only man that could have provided it for him, and subsequently threw him under the bus. He, at the very best, put his family through hell through an extramarital affair. This is not a guy who exactly has everybody else's best affairs in mind. ALl the talent in the world, along with all the ego.