I'm sorry, Vlade

[andjel]

I believe the drafted Papagiannis because he foresaw a future without Cousins. I think he drafted Richardson because he didn't see a future with McLemore. And I think he drafted Skal, because he was shocked to see him still on the board. I think the results validate what I believe to some extent. I think that was Vlade's plan from the get go, but I think the road got a little bumpy between points an A and B. OK, maybe a lot bumpy.

From everything I saw, Papa is very close to KK with his skill set.
What that has to do with Cuz and what their skill sets have in common?

Nobody brought up that Vlade signed up KK to replace Cuz, but signing Papa has been pointed out again and again as some insight of preparation of life without Cuz.

The rest I fully agree.

 

[peacelate]

From everything I saw, Papa is very close to KK with his skill set.
What that has to do with Cuz and what their skill sets have in common?

Nobody brought up that Vlade signed up KK to replace Cuz, but signing Papa has been pointed out again and again as some insight of preparation of life without Cuz.

The rest I fully agree.

Because Papiagnis and Cousins could never co-exist. Did Vlade draft Papiagnis hoping he would become great backup to Cousins? I doubt it.

Koufos is most certainly a backup center so that's why he signed him.

 

[andjel]

Because Papiagnis and Cousins could never co-exist. Did Vlade draft Papiagnis hoping he would become great backup to Cousins? I doubt it.

Considering that KK and Cuz spent solid amount of time on the court together being starting PF and C, why do you claim the above?

 

[peacelate]

Considering that KK and Cuz spent solid amount of time on the court together being starting PF and C, why do you claim the above?

They were horrible together. Just because they played together doesn't mean they should. Neither one can guard power forwards.

 

[gunks]

Aaron Bruski and Scott Howard Cooper both said that they had talked to several GM's that stated they wouldn't take Cousins on their team if the Kings game him to them. Others thought he was a terrific player, didn't want to take a chance on screwing up their chemistry. I think it was Cooper that said he talked to Danny Anige who said he had asked his Coach, Brad Stevens if he wanted to trade for Cousins, and that Stevens definitively said no. Call that he said/she said if you want to, but it appears there wasn't that big a market for Cousins.

If this is all true, then I reckon I've been a little harsh on Vlade.

I don't envy his position. He was stuck between a crazy owner and a crazy franchise player. Never mind that trading away a 28/11/5 player is always going to be a bitter pill for fans to swallow (even with the anti-Cuz campaign that Grant and the Bee have been running for years now).

 

[andjel]

They were horrible together. Just because they played together doesn't mean they should. Neither one can guard power forwards.

With all due respect, your opinion on this matter is not relevant because based on what happened coach was having a different opinion and his opinion has much more weight.

Not saying you are wrong, just that coach believed that KK and Cuz can co-exist and that KK is not Cuz replacement. Why would he see Papa differently?

 

[peacelate]

With all due respect, your opinion on this matter is not relevant because based on what happened coach was having a different opinion and his opinion has much more weight.

Not saying you are wrong, just that coach believed that KK and Cuz can co-exist and that KK is not Cuz replacement. Why would he see Papa differently?

Well we don't know what Joeger's motivation was. WCS was horrible the first half of the year. Do you think if he was playing the way he was now, he would still have played KK over WCS next to Cousins. Sometimes a coach doesn't play the best starting 5 to motivate young players to enhance their game. ANd your opinion that KK and Papiagis have similar skill sets is insufficient because that is not the only factor in determining starting lineups.

I'm talking about why Vlade signed KK and drafted Papiagnis, not from the perspective of Joeger who wasn't involved in the Papiagnis pick.

 

[andjel]

Well we don't know what Joeger's motivation was. WCS was horrible the first half of the year. Do you think if he was playing the way he was now, he would still have played KK over WCS next to Cousins. Sometimes a coach doesn't play the best starting 5 to motivate young players to enhance their game. ANd your opinion that KK and Papiagis have similar skill sets is insufficient because that is not the only factor in determining starting lineups.

I'm talking about why Vlade signed KK and drafted Papiagnis, not from the perspective of Joeger who wasn't involved in the Papiagnis pick.

Ok, you did not offer anything in the post above to support your statement about co-existance of Papa and Cuz and that Papa would have to be backup to Cuz.
It is just your opinion that contradicts Joerger's actions; and his actions support the opposite.

Did you see any actions or words of Vlade or Joerger before the trade that was pointing that your opinion was shared by them?

Almost unrelated, but I do not understand the statement that active coach is not involved in draft picks.

 

[peacelate]

Ok, you did not offer anything in the post above to support your statement about co-existance of Papa and Cuz and that Papa would have to be backup to Cuz.
It is just your opinion that contradicts Joerger's actions; and his actions support the opposite.

Did you see any actions or words of Vlade or Joerger before the trade that was pointing that your opinion was shared by them?

Almost unrelated, but I do not understand the statement that active coach is not involved in draft picks.

Cousins cannot guard power forwards in today's game. We know this from past history or do you dispute this? Papagiannis is 7'2" and to guard stretch forwards, he would have to be the quickest 7'2" in history. Everything is conjecture until it actually happens, but I would bet that Papagiannis can't guard stretch forwards because how many 7'2" players can in today's game?

I didn't see anything from Vlade that suggested Papagiannis couldn't play alongside Cousins, but did you see anything from them that suggests Papagiannis and Koufos have similar skill sets or is this merely your opinion?

 

[andjel]

Cousins cannot guard power forwards in today's game. We know this from past history or do you dispute this? Papagiannis is 7'2" and to guard stretch forwards, he would have to be the quickest 7'2" in history. Everything is conjecture until it actually happens, but I would bet that Papagiannis can't guard stretch forwards because how many 7'2" players can in today's game?

I didn't see anything from Vlade that suggested Papagiannis couldn't play alongside Cousins, but did you see anything from them that suggests Papagiannis and Koufos have similar skill sets or is this merely your opinion?

Most of the time, I agree about the defense, but there is also a benefit of the mismatch on the offense. For 15-20 min depending on the match-up they can play together which will still give them 30+ min of playing time.
Joerger played KK and Cuz, there is no conjecture here.

Regarding Papa and Koufos,
It is based on similarity in size/build/speed/range and what they are doing so far. Both are big mostly defensive bigs great at clogging the middle.
Of course KK is much better than Papa now, and Papa might develop to be something different, but you are right it is based on the opinion which I would guess you share at least from the playing together with Cuz perspective.

Difference is that one opinion (coexistence possibility) is somewhat disputed by the actions, while the other one (players similarity) is not.

Thanks for the conversation

 

[peacelate]

Most of the time, I agree about the defense, but there is also a benefit of the mismatch on the offense. For 15-20 min depending on the match-up they can play together which will still give them 30+ min of playing time.
Joerger played KK and Cuz, there is no conjecture here.

Regarding Papa and Koufos,
It is based on similarity in size/build/speed/range and what they are doing so far. Both are big mostly defensive bigs great at clogging the middle.
Of course KK is much better than Papa now, and Papa might develop to be something different, but you are right it is based on the opinion which I would guess you share at least from the playing together with Cuz perspective.

Difference is that one opinion (coexistence possibility) is somewhat disputed by the actions, while the other one (players similarity) is not.

Thanks for the conversation

So who makes the lineups Joeger or Vlade? Just because Joeger uses a player a certain way doesn't mean that was Vlade's intent.

 

[LPKingsFan]

I was wrong. I was way too judgmental. I jumped right off Assumption Cliff and into Conclusion Pond without even taking a peek over the edge ahead of time. I ran along with the pack of dogs who were so convinced the Kings were doomed after the trade.

I'll be totally honest...If DMC was still on the Kings, I would not be this excited. I would not be looking forward to games. What I would be doing is holding my breath and keeping my fingers crossed that Boogie would maintain his cool, not do stupid things and not find a way to get called for another technical (which he did tonight, BTW).

I loved watching Cousins play. I still believe he'll find a way to turn himself around and he'll end up in the Hall of Fame. But, after tonight...and yes, I know it was against the Suns...I can look forward to the future of the Sacramento Kings without seeing anything but dark skies and gloomy forecasts.

Our team right now is FUN. Our coach deserves a medal for what he's been able to accomplish. Guys like Skal, WCS and Buddy have their whole careers in front of them and we get to go along for the ride. With vets like Lawson, Temple and Koufos to help set the tone, we've got something special.

We've had something special before. They ended up on the cover of Sports Illustrated. It went by all too quickly and I don't think I enjoyed enough during the ride. I won't make that mistake again.

It's a good time to be a Kings fan.

#GoKings

Remember the 1999 shirts, I think they handed them out at Arco, that said "The Young & Relentless 1999 Sacramento Kings"? That's what it's starting to feel like again. Time to bring this back:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SACRAMENTO-...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

[VF21]

Maybe this will be the year SacTownKid finally ends his strike.

 

[mac]

Considering that KK and Cuz spent solid amount of time on the court together being starting PF and C, why do you claim the above?

I would say that KK is pretty much a role player, whether starting or not. And not necessarily a very good role player either, though I do think he's a good player to have. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that you don't draft a long term project at #13 and hope he turns out to be KK. IMO Papa was very much drafted for life after Cousins, whether that happened this season or in 3 seasons.

 

[allrightythen]

I was pretty upset at first after the trade for probably the same reasons as most around here. After reading some more about how it went down I think there is reason for frustration from both sides and maybe that is evidence that a separation was best at this point.

Like you VF I still very much root for Demarcus. With his off-court contributions to the community I was almost willing to overlook any shortcomings on the basketball/chemistry side. For me there is a lot of things to like about Demarcus despite his faults. Either way I really hope he has a career that he feels is a success.

Maybe what we are seeing now is something that Vlade and Coach Joerger saw as realistic because they worked with many of these guys everyday. It seems to me that we see so little of what really goes on aside from games that our perspective is always a little skewed. I was pretty ticked about the trade but I've kinda relaxed and learned how little I really know. I still think Vlade has made some mistakes (Stauskas trade looks silly to me still), but he seems to be getting more savvy and this team appears to have a system, a direction, and a chemistry that we were all hoping that Vlade would bring from the start.

Go Kings

 

[TaxMan]

I was pretty upset at first after the trade for probably the same reasons as most around here. After reading some more about how it went down I think there is reason for frustration from both sides and maybe that is evidence that a separation was best at this point.

Like you VF I still very much root for Demarcus. With his off-court contributions to the community I was almost willing to overlook any shortcomings on the basketball/chemistry side. For me there is a lot of things to like about Demarcus despite his faults. Either way I really hope he has a career that he feels is a success.

Maybe what we are seeing now is something that Vlade and Coach Joerger saw as realistic because they worked with many of these guys everyday. It seems to me that we see so little of what really goes on aside from games that our perspective is always a little skewed. I was pretty ticked about the trade but I've kinda relaxed and learned how little I really know. I still think Vlade has made some mistakes (Stauskas trade looks silly to me still), but he seems to be getting more savvy and this team appears to have a system, a direction, and a chemistry that we were all hoping that Vlade would bring from the start.

Go Kings

I agree. Vlade has made some rookie GM moves; however, time will be the ultimate judge of how good of a talent evaluator and team builder he really is. I think it's taken a year and a half to start to see his long term vision. Judging a gm by individual moves can be dangerous until you start to see the collective vision come together. There are a lot of moves the spurs make that, if it wasn't the spurs, most would be rolling their eyes at. However, you never hear criticism once it's taken in the context of their overall organizational/team concept (and no, not every move they make pays off....)

 

[Kingsfan23]

That Philly trade might end up horrible

Sixers playing well, and there might be a swap this year

 

[Kingsfan23]

This rebuild is dependent on one of WCS/Papa panning out

WCS, can he find consistency? Can he play the 5 full time?

 

[The_Jamal]

Too soon for "I'm sorry's"

Just because Skal and Buddy look awesome, doesn't mean we didn't get fleeced in the Boogie trade. Or look stupid letting Seth Curry, who's developing into a 20 PPG scorer walk for 50 games of Matt Barnes. Or do a massive "win-now" trade to win with Boogie and then give up a year and a half later on that plan. The lingering issue I've always had with Vlade is he's never been consistent in his plan since taking over. If he always wanted to trade Boogie it should have happened when he took office and then proceeded to open up a bidding war. Boogie with 3 years left on his deal would have grabbed FAR more than Buddy and a potential first in a loaded draft.

Regardless of all of that, IF we get that NO pick this year, Vlade will have stumbled into a pretty damn good rebuilding core and the makings of a really fun team to watch.

 

[whozit]

Too soon for "I'm sorry's"

Just because Skal and Buddy look awesome, doesn't mean we didn't get fleeced in the Boogie trade. Or look stupid letting Seth Curry, who's developing into a 20 PPG scorer walk for 50 games of Matt Barnes. Or do a massive "win-now" trade to win with Boogie and then give up a year and a half later on that plan. The lingering issue I've always had with Vlade is he's never been consistent in his plan since taking over. If he always wanted to trade Boogie it should have happened when he took office and then proceeded to open up a bidding war. Boogie with 3 years left on his deal would have grabbed FAR more than Buddy and a potential first in a loaded draft.

Regardless of all of that, IF we get that NO pick this year, Vlade will have stumbled into a pretty damn good rebuilding core and the makings of a really fun team to watch.

The trouble with the consistency predated Vlade. I think you need to go up one more level for the source of inconsistency.

 

[King Baller]

Too soon for "I'm sorry's"

Just because Skal and Buddy look awesome, doesn't mean we didn't get fleeced in the Boogie trade. Or look stupid letting Seth Curry, who's developing into a 20 PPG scorer walk for 50 games of Matt Barnes. Or do a massive "win-now" trade to win with Boogie and then give up a year and a half later on that plan. The lingering issue I've always had with Vlade is he's never been consistent in his plan since taking over. If he always wanted to trade Boogie it should have happened when he took office and then proceeded to open up a bidding war. Boogie with 3 years left on his deal would have grabbed FAR more than Buddy and a potential first in a loaded draft.

Regardless of all of that, IF we get that NO pick this year, Vlade will have stumbled into a pretty damn good rebuilding core and the makings of a really fun team to watch.

So Vlade "stumbles into" anything good. But got "fleeced" or "look stupid" in the other deals. Hell man there is talk Alvin Gentry and Dell Demps may get fired

 

[funkykingston]

Too soon for "I'm sorry's"

Just because Skal and Buddy look awesome, doesn't mean we didn't get fleeced in the Boogie trade. Or look stupid letting Seth Curry, who's developing into a 20 PPG scorer walk for 50 games of Matt Barnes. Or do a massive "win-now" trade to win with Boogie and then give up a year and a half later on that plan. The lingering issue I've always had with Vlade is he's never been consistent in his plan since taking over. If he always wanted to trade Boogie it should have happened when he took office and then proceeded to open up a bidding war. Boogie with 3 years left on his deal would have grabbed FAR more than Buddy and a potential first in a loaded draft.

Regardless of all of that, IF we get that NO pick this year, Vlade will have stumbled into a pretty damn good rebuilding core and the makings of a really fun team to watch.

I have no idea what went on behind the scenes but if I had to guess, Vivek asked add to win now and Divac tried to oblige. When that didn't work they had to change course.

The problem from the beginning of the Vivek era was trying to win quickly instead of properly rebuilding - either around Cousins or by moving him

 

[KingsFanSince85]

So Vlade "stumbles into" anything good. But got "fleeced" or "look stupid" in the other deals.

What has #21 stumbled into that has proven to be good? What deals has he made that you can for certain say that he hasn't looked foolish or in over his head?? It all started with the trade swap and not understanding the stretch provision (allegedly) and it hasn't gotten any better from there.

As far as the draft goes, he's taken WCS and Papa as his top picks. Neither have been a coup thus far. Everybody seems to be in love with Skal right now, but if #21 really thought he was going to be a star, he would have taken him at #13 instead of Papa or even at #22 instead of Malachi. If Skal does develop into a star, the Kings just flat out lucked out on that one.

 

[Telemachus]

This rebuild is dependent on one of WCS/Papa panning out

WCS, can he find consistency? Can he play the 5 full time?

You keep asking this question, but it is too early for an answer. It usually takes a big man 3-4 years to develop into the player he will become. WCS is in his 2nd year, and has shown a lot of improvement. Consistency is the next step you would hope will follow. You have to have patience though.

 

[c-webb1s#1]

Alright, I've calmed down since the trade, and can see things a bit more clear.

First off, I am in full support of what Vlade did. He obviously saw Skal, and Willie in practice, and he knew their potential. Combine that with the prospect of getting Buddy and a few lottery picks....and well you can see why he did it. Both Skal and to a lesser extent Willie were obviously not going to get the playing time and space to grow with Cousins here.

Second, our future was in serious jeopardy of staying mediocre with Cousins here. We might have made the playoffs and lost our pick this year and the next. This is most due in part to the Kings being so incompetent in years past, but it is what it is.

Third, Vlade couldnt get more for DeMarcus, and this is because of Vivek. We all know that Vivek was flip flopping back and forth on the idea of trading Boogie. I heard last summer he gave Vlade permission to look into trading him, and then did not give him permission later on. So once he gave the green light to explore trading him Vlade had to act fast if he wanted to capitalize on this years draft. Of course Cousins agent also messed things up for us a bit, but oh well!

So now we go into one of the deepest drafts in recent history, and we go into it with possibly two picks! We also have two of the most promising bigs in the league, and a potential dead eye shooter in Buddy! We also save $200,000,000.00 ;p

 

[Kingsfan23]

You keep asking this question, but it is too early for an answer. It usually takes a big man 3-4 years to develop into the player he will become. WCS is in his 2nd year, and has shown a lot of improvement. Consistency is the next step you would hope will follow. You have to have patience though.

I don't ask it about Skal or Buddy, or even Papa. I don't sense that motor will be the decisive factor in their careers. With WCS, i feel it is. He has the skills - the athleticism, underrated offensive arsenal etc, but it will depend if he can get to a point where he can put it out there nightly. Hopefully he can.

And yes he has been improving incrementally

 

[King Baller]

What has #21 stumbled into that has proven to be good? What deals has he made that you can for certain say that he hasn't looked foolish or in over his head?? It all started with the trade swap and not understanding the stretch provision (allegedly) and it hasn't gotten any better from there.

As far as the draft goes, he's taken WCS and Papa as his top picks. Neither have been a coup thus far. Everybody seems to be in love with Skal right now, but if #21 really thought he was going to be a star, he would have taken him at #13 instead of Papa or even at #22 instead of Malachi. If Skal does develop into a star, the Kings just flat out lucked out on that one.

Teams luck into players sometimes. Spurs were lucky to get Duncan. Mullin picked Curry with the 7th pick. But Klay was picked with an 11th and Draymond with the 35th pick in the 2nd round. Monta who was traded for Bogut was a 2nd round pick, 40th pick. Teams get lucky, even good teams.

I'm just not as negative towards Vlade as you are. So far how has the Philly trade hurt the Kings? Has Stauskas impressed? Was there a pick swap last year? Vlade has turned Belinelli & Chriss into Malachi, Skal, Papa & the rights to Bogdan. WCS has looked good post DMC trade. Signing Koufos, Temple and Tolliver were solid moves. Inking Joerger was a solid move. Judging the DMC trade is going to depend on the outcome of the final games and the lottery. Bottom line the Kings should have some nice picks.

As we Kings Fans know it has been 11 straight losing seasons. I'm ready to show some patience for a change. The carousel that has been the Kings Front Office and Coaching positions needs to stop.

Most of Vlade's moves will take time to judge fairly. I'm looking forward to see how the Team develops in the next couple of seasons.

 

[jpsls]

What has #21 stumbled into that has proven to be good? What deals has he made that you can for certain say that he hasn't looked foolish or in over his head?? It all started with the trade swap and not understanding the stretch provision (allegedly) and it hasn't gotten any better from there.

As far as the draft goes, he's taken WCS and Papa as his top picks. Neither have been a coup thus far. Everybody seems to be in love with Skal right now, but if #21 really thought he was going to be a star, he would have taken him at #13 instead of Papa or even at #22 instead of Malachi. If Skal does develop into a star, the Kings just flat out lucked out on that one.

That's not entirely true though. If a team knows a player is going to fall down the draft board, why pick him early when you have multiple picks and can draft him later? I don't think it's luck if you draft a guy because you believe his talent can translate to the NBA. There were a number of guys they could have picked at the same position, but instead saw something in Skal. That's not lucking into something.

 

[funkykingston]

As far as the draft goes, he's taken WCS and Papa as his top picks. Neither have been a coup thus far. Everybody seems to be in love with Skal right now, but if #21 really thought he was going to be a star, he would have taken him at #13 instead of Papa or even at #22 instead of Malachi. If Skal does develop into a star, the Kings just flat out lucked out on that one.

When criticizing a GMs drafting record you really have to look at who they could have taken instead. With WCS I remember people here really wanting Mudiay, Johnson or Winslow but it's hard to argue that they are much better players than Willie. The guys that Vlade missed were really Devin Booker and Myles Turner.

With Papa who was drafted after him that has impressed so far other than Skal? Brogdan? McCaw? I hated the Papagiannis pick when it happened but who was projected/taken around 13 that makes it a horrible mistake? Certainly not the guy I wanted - Wade Baldwin.

The guy I'm always going to watch and compare Papa to is Zubac. He was the young center I wanted and predraft I thought he'd be there at 28 and he was. Likewise with DeJounte Murray (who I liked a lot) and Malachi.

Labissisere and Richardson were two of my absolute least favorite prospects in last year's draft and I knew nothing about Papa. But so far Vlade got a kid who is looking like he could be at least a player and maybe special in Skal, a solid player in Richardson, a project in Papagiannis and the rights to Bogdanovic. For one of the weakest drafts in the last 10-15 years I'd say he had a very good draft.

 

[joemama]

That Philly trade might end up horrible

Sixers playing well, and there might be a swap this year

Yeah like when the kings win the lottery and end up with the 3rd pick and have to swap it out for philly's 5th pick.