How to Improve the Defense?

[bajaden]

ppine, the reason why you're wrong has nothing to do with your opinion of the posters here, and everything to do with your opinion of the basketball players; you grossly overestimate their intellect. I don't think as many as one in fifteen finished college, and many of them (e.g., Derrick Rose, OJ Mayo, Deshawn Stevenson, Josh Smith, JR Smith) needed "help," vis-a-vis grade fixing, just to graduate high school. More to the point, however, Spike had it exactly right when he said:



This statement is true, and applies not only to Evans, but to nearly every elite guard in the league who 1) didn't play and/or didn't stay in college, 2) was always the best player on his team in high school/college, or 3) never played with a quality big man before going pro.

If you're an Anfernee Hardaway, or a Derrick Rose, or a Russell Westbrook, or a Tyreke Evans, or a Kyrie Irving, and you were always the biggest/strongest/fastest/most athletic player on the floor, your high school coach's "offense" probably consisted of the 1-4 and the fast break, you didn't learn the pick and roll, because you had no need to learn the pick and roll. If you're a big without a jumper, whether you're talking about top-level bigs like Dwight Howard and Andrew Bynum, mid-level bigs like Larry Sanders and JaVale McGee, or low-level bigs like Tyrus Thomas and Ryan Hollins, you didn't have to learn how to play the pick and roll: they were able to catch the ball in the post, and then just turn around and dunk on people. I would bet you a week's pay that Andrew Bynum had no idea how to play the pick and roll, until after he got the lakers.

Sometimes, as in the cases of Westbrook and Irving, they go on to a college where they have to learn to play within a system, and/or with other talented players, and they learn the pick and roll then. Sometimes, like with a Rose or a Mayo, they don't learn until they get to the pros. And some players, like Evans, have yet to be taught. He played, almost exclusively, the 1-4 in high school, he played the 1-4 his one year at Memphis, and his first year in the league, what did Westphal run for him? Oh, guess what, the 1-4. Exactly why do you assume that everybody in the NBA knows how to play the pick and roll. It's a very basic basketball play, but it's not an essential basketball play. It's not like dribbling: you don't actually have to know how to pick and roll in order to be an effective basketball player. In fact, there may not be any one basketball skill that you absolutely have to know in order to be an effective basketball player.

And furthermore, even if you do learn how to play the pick and roll, that doesn't mean that 1) you know how to defend it, or 2) are capable of teaching other people how to play/defend it. I think, having played for Bob Knight, and learning from Gregg Popovich and Don Nelson, that Keith Smart knows how to run/play the pick and roll, but his track record shows that he's apparently not capable of teaching that skill to other people.

Do I think that everybody in the NBA knows how to run the pick and roll, just because they're in the NBA? Absolutely not. Not only do I not believe that, I think that the very idea is patently ridiculous. Do I think that the ones who don't know how to run it are too "stupid" to learn it? No, I don't believe that, either. What I do believe is that, with maybe one or two exceptions, the players on the Kings don't know how to, and haven't been taught to. I think we can all agree that we'd like to see that changed, starting next season.

Well said!

 

[Telemachus]

And furthermore, even if you do learn how to play the pick and roll, that doesn't mean that 1) you know how to defend it, or 2) are capable of teaching other people how to play/defend it. I think, having played for Bob Knight, and learning from Gregg Popovich and Don Nelson, that Keith Smart knows how to run/play the pick and roll, but his track record shows that he's apparently not capable of teaching that skill to other people.

Shaq is a good example of a player who never learned out to defend the pick and roll. It was a major reason why the Lakers always struggled against Utah and SA in the playoffs.

 

[ppine]

Players in the NBA are too dumb or inexperienced to learn to play the pick and roll? Nonsense. Every junior high school basketball player learns what it is.

 

[Spike]

I had a long response, but it's like you enjoy ignoring thought out, reasonable responses. We'll agree to disagree. It's more inexperience than intellect (although Slim's point stands that there are those of below average intelligence in the NBA.), but yes, if you're an elite athlete, you can make it to the NBA without having properly learned the pick and roll. Average Joes need the structure, like a pick and roll, to compete with athletes who don't need the structure.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Players in the NBA are too dumb or inexperienced to learn to play the pick and roll? Nonsense. Every junior high school basketball player learns what it is.

This is absolutely untrue, and you can't possibly believe it. It's been awhile since I was in junior high myself, but it wasn't that long ago that my son was in middle school, and I'm telling you that you're loud wrong in your belief that every junior high school players knows it, or is even taught it.

 

[Gilles]

Players in the NBA are too dumb or inexperienced to learn to play the pick and roll? Nonsense. Every junior high school basketball player learns what it is.

You can learn what P&R is by watching an hour of NBA footage. Learning to make the right decision is a bit harder.

 

[Telemachus]

Players in the NBA are too dumb or inexperienced to learn to play the pick and roll? Nonsense. Every junior high school basketball player learns what it is.

You can't possibly believe that every Jr. High bball player knows about the P&R. That would make you either stupid or sorely misinformed. I have seen way too much middle school (and HS) basketball to believe that even a quarter of them really understand how to play P&R.

 

[spudfan]

This is absolutely untrue, and you can't possibly believe it. It's been awhile since I was in junior high myself, but it wasn't that long ago that my son was in middle school, and I'm telling you that you're loud wrong in your belief that every junior high school players knows it, or is even taught it.

And you even clearly said why this is so. When you have a truly elite level athlete on a team at that age it would foolish to not take advantage of their physical tools. The physical tools take much less refinement to be dominant than skill areas. Unfortunately the focus is on winning and not team skill development. Sure, most of these guys get individual coaching too but that rarely focuses on team skills.

 

[Livinthedream]

You can't possibly believe that every Jr. High bball player knows about the P&R. That would make you either stupid or sorely misinformed. I have seen way too much middle school (and HS) basketball to believe that even a quarter of them really understand how to play P&R.

Knowing what a pick and roll is and knowing how to effectively play it are different things. High school players should know what it is.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

They should know it. The point is that, contrary to what ppine believes, it is not a truism that they do know it.

 

[Telemachus]

Knowing what a pick and roll is and knowing how to effectively play it are different things. High school players should know what it is.

I think most HS players have heard of P&R, but don't have a very good understanding of what it is. But ppine said that all Jr. High players know P&R, which couldn't be further from the truth IMO. A big problem is that you don't see the P&R used all that often even at the HS level because it is most effective against man-to-man defense. Most HS teams I see primarily play zone defense. This is also true in college to a lessor extent. While you see more man defense in college, most still play mostly some kind of zone.

 

[Livinthedream]

I think most HS players have heard of P&R, but don't have a very good understanding of what it is. But ppine said that all Jr. High players know P&R, which couldn't be further from the truth IMO. A big problem is that you don't see the P&R used all that often even at the HS level because it is most effective against man-to-man defense. Most HS teams I see primarily play zone defense. This is also true in college to a lessor extent. While you see more man defense in college, most still play mostly some kind of zone.

Point taken on the zone defense. It is a matter of kids being able to apply and get experience with the pick and roll as opposed to actually knowing what it is.

 

[rainmaker]

One of ppine's mistakes is thinking the very basic pick & roll as taught in middle school somehow equates to successfully running a pick & roll at the NBA level. It doesn't. Kids are taught at an early age the basics, setting your man up, going shoulder to shoulder, coming off and attacking, and the screener is supposed to reverse pivot and roll. But somehow thinking that's enough to run it successfully at the NBA level is ignorant, especially given how complex NBA defenses can be in guarding the pick & roll.

Similar to a motion offense. Kids are taught the basics at a young age, both bigs screen down near the block, wings pop out, PG passes to one wing, screens away, as does one big to the weakside, and go from there. But that doesn't mean every player is equipped to run a motion offense at the NBA level. It's again, just ignorant.

There are numerous variables in both defending a running an NBA level pick & roll, numerous, and the best teams who count on the pick & roll practice and prepare for all the variables/variations on a regular basis. Given we rarely even spaced the floor correctly to run a proper pick & roll, not even looking at the pick & roll itself, just how we looked to actually set it up tells more this coaching staff spent little, if any time on it.

And if it's just so damn easy, why did ppine's favorite player in IT have more trouble both running and defending it than any other Kings player? Reke might have trouble running it at times although he does hit the rolling/popping big, and Jimmer was pretty poor defending it(but actually ran it quite well at times) while IT struggled more than anyone in both running and defending it, where he basically never hit the rolling/popping big and was just completely lost defending it. But if it's just so easy.....

 

[ppine]

Maybe I was lucky to go to DeMatha High School for seminars by Morgan Wooten when I was in the 7th grade. They were the only high school to beat Lew Alcindor at Power Memorial High School in his career.

Okay let's make it high school. People talk about pick and rolls and lots of other basic basketball knowledge like it is kept a secret. It is basic to the game at all levels. Some coaches are not very suited for their positions. Maybe some shop teachers or English majors coach and shouldn't be. I had a crappy high school coach, played a lot of zone and worked on pick and rolls every day. What is the big deal?

 

[uolj]

3) defensive stud/captain/lockdown guy at SF or PG -- almost surely SF.

Speaking of that...

Who Are the New Age Shane Battiers?

Conventional wisdom says you can find shooters who play good defense everywhere. But they're harder to find than you might think — and more valuable than ever.

...

I'd be scouring the world for role players who can do all of the following three things:

• Defend shooting guards.

• Defend small forwards.

• Shoot 3-pointers proficiently.

This is the perfect role player, a sort of New Age Shane Battier...

Which of the guys in this piece would be available to the Kings?

 

[CaminoChaos]

The biggest problem with the kings defense is the are usually playing 4 on 5 because DMC is on the other end complaining about a call.

 

[Uncia03]

There are a ton of things that can be done to improve the defense:
1.) New coach demanding accountability
2.) New coach with better defensive principles
3.) Roster adjustments to provide more minutes for better man/team defenders

I really do think that the Smart was teaching the team to cheat on defense, slouch away from their men to help with the hope that they could recover quickly enough to challenge shots. We saw them getting burned over and over again on that so hopefully that will stop next season.

But the thing I want to mention, and I've seen it mentioned elsewhere, is TRUST.

Cousins PnR defense is really bad, and the reason it's bad is because he doesn't truly commit to showing to push the PG off the PnR. Instead he's usually 3-5 feet off of it waving his hands around. The reason he doesn't show hard is because if he does that then he'll be completely unable to guard his man for a couple of seconds. Now he has to trust his teammates that the right rotations will be made to cover for him, but it's very clear that he doesn't. So he gives a half-hearted show so that his own man won't have too much easy space to score.

Until the bigs are able to consistently show hard to disrupt the PnR and trust that their teammates will have their backs we'll continued to get killed on the PnR.

So we need a new coach, some roster changes, some accountability, some defensive methodology adjustments, and some work to begin building up trust for the 5-man defensive unit out on the floor.

 

[Npliam]

There are a ton of things that can be done to improve the defense:
1.) New coach demanding accountability
2.) New coach with better defensive principles
3.) Roster adjustments to provide more minutes for better man/team defenders

I really do think that the Smart was teaching the team to cheat on defense, slouch away from their men to help with the hope that they could recover quickly enough to challenge shots. We saw them getting burned over and over again on that so hopefully that will stop next season.

But the thing I want to mention, and I've seen it mentioned elsewhere, is TRUST.

Cousins PnR defense is really bad, and the reason it's bad is because he doesn't truly commit to showing to push the PG off the PnR. Instead he's usually 3-5 feet off of it waving his hands around. The reason he doesn't show hard is because if he does that then he'll be completely unable to guard his man for a couple of seconds. Now he has to trust his teammates that the right rotations will be made to cover for him, but it's very clear that he doesn't. So he gives a half-hearted show so that his own man won't have too much easy space to score.

Until the bigs are able to consistently show hard to disrupt the PnR and trust that their teammates will have their backs we'll continued to get killed on the PnR.

So we need a new coach, some roster changes, some accountability, some defensive methodology adjustments, and some work to begin building up trust for the 5-man defensive unit out on the floor.

Yep, it is every body else.....not Cousins.

 

[uolj]

<snip>
Cousins PnR defense is really bad
<snip>

Yep, it is every body else.....not Cousins.

Hmm...

And by the way, I think anybody who says the solution needs to come from somewhere other than Cousins is doing so because the obvious assumption being made is that Cousins needs to be playing no matter what due to his talents in other areas.

 

[CaminoChaos]

Hmm...

And by the way, I think anybody who says the solution needs to come from somewhere other than Cousins is doing so because the obvious assumption being made is that Cousins needs to be playing no matter what due to his talents in other areas.

Exactly! And he isn't as talented in those other areas as you might think but thats for a different thread. This team has a lot of issues on defense. The coach, the back court ranks the worst in opponents FG%, the whole team needs help!

 

[Uncia03]

Yep, it is every body else.....not Cousins.

Um....are you trolling or something?

I start off by saying that we need a better defensive coach and system then say that roster adjustments need to be made.
Then I talk about TRUST and state explicitly that Cousins PnR defense is horrible, then use him as an example of how a lack of trust can create poor team defense.

I've got an idea...why don't you check out the 4/10 grades against the Hornets. In that game we blew out the Hornets and I got to grade Cousins, Hayes, and Aldrich. They ended up with grades of C-, C, & D.

And why did I give them such low marks? Because of their defense, and specifically their PnR defense. And I talk specifically to that aspect of their game and criticize all three of them for their poor play. That TRUST thing I mentioned in my original post...it isn't just Cousins that doesn't trust his team...it's something that impacts all of the Bigs.

How you could possibly read my post and think that I'm saying that Cousins is flawless and everyone else needs to get better is beyond me. Either you're just trolling or you're pushing for some sort of agenda that doesn't make any sense at all.

*shakes his head*

 

[bajaden]

Players in the NBA are too dumb or inexperienced to learn to play the pick and roll? Nonsense. Every junior high school basketball player learns what it is.

No one said that they were too dumb or inexperienced to learn. What I said was that they haven't been taught correctly. If you think that every highschool or junior high program gives good instruction, you know nothing about highschool basketball. In many cases players are played out of position, and in many cases, the highschool coach is also the english teacher. Sure, there are top notch highschool programs around the country, but not every player gets to go to one of those. I saw many of the games that Matt Barnes played at Del Campo, and I can assure you that the coach had little or no clue on how to coach a basketball team. Barnes played center while there, and I'm sure that prepared him for playing SF or SG in the future. I don't think I ever saw them run a pick and roll in any of the games I watched.

 

[bajaden]

Yep, it is every body else.....not Cousins.

Might I suggest a course in reading comprehension.

 

[rainmaker]

Might I suggest a course in reading comprehension.

Whatever is in the water in Seattle has made its way to Utah apparently.