How does Tyreke stack up against past ROY winners?

[est.1999]

The bulls, loaded? Do you not remember the knicks teams or the pacers teams. Heck even the heat had hardaway and mourning. Maybe when rodman got to the bulls you can say they hit loaded status. Jordan just made it go. And without a big man to boot. The nineties teams had talent. You'd be hard pressed to find a team right now that can beat the 93 suns or the 92 blazers. How bout the 97 and 98 jazz? Discrediting the 90's teams of what they had is not fair.

 

[Chupacabra]

You guys really believe the talent level between Paul and Williams is that much apart? Wow

Ive always thought so. I dont think theres anything Williams does better than Paul, maybe 3 point shooting but not by much. Id say Paul is stronger in every category. I dont think theres been a better point guard in the last 20 years. Deron is an elite point guard in the league today, but he cant touch Chris Paul.

 

[Chupacabra]

The bulls, loaded? Do you not remember the knicks teams or the pacers teams. Heck even the heat had hardaway and mourning. Maybe when rodman got to the bulls you can say they hit loaded status. Jordan just made it go. And without a big man to boot. The nineties teams had talent. You'd be hard pressed to find a team right now that can beat the 93 suns or the 92 blazers. How bout the 97 and 98 jazz? Discrediting the 90's teams of what they had is not fair.

I totally agree with this. Lots of tough teams in the 90's. The Knicks were pretty much stacked the entire decade. The Heat had that starting 5 of Mourning/P.J. Brown/Mashburn/Leonard/Hardaway. The Spurs had that core of D.Robinson/Rodman/Elliot. The Pacers were always tough. The list just keeps going. Not to mention 90's basketball was a very physical era for the NBA.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

The NBA expanded dramatically during the late 80s through the mid 90s, I don't believe the talent level of the teams of the Jordan era remotely compares to that of the Magic/Bird era. We can debate today's NBA but I do believe the influx of Euro talent in the late 90s and early 2000s brought balance back to the league.

And yes, even without Jordan the 94 Bulls were a few horrendous calls away from another Finals run. I think people forget about Ho Grant. I'd of taken Pippen and Grant over the 1-2 of just about all the teams mentioned except the Spurs trio you mentioned, who were only together one season. I think people focus too much on the Luc Longleys and Randy Browns on those teams who were competent role players in their own right and forget about some of the big time players that weren't Jordan, Pippen and Rodman.

 

[Kingsguy881]

The NBA expanded dramatically during the late 80s through the mid 90s, I don't believe the talent level of the teams of the Jordan era remotely compares to that of the Magic/Bird era. We can debate today's NBA but I do believe the influx of Euro talent in the late 90s and early 2000s brought balance back to the league.

And yes, even without Jordan the 94 Bulls were a few horrendous calls away from another Finals run. I think people forget about Ho Grant. I'd of taken Pippen and Grant over the 1-2 of just about all the teams mentioned except the Spurs trio you mentioned, who were only together one season. I think people focus too much on the Luc Longleys and Randy Browns on those teams who were competent role players in their own right and forget about some of the big time players that weren't Jordan, Pippen and Rodman.

Hodges and Paxson..

 

[Sparky6string]

The bulls, loaded? Do you not remember the knicks teams or the pacers teams. Heck even the heat had hardaway and mourning. Maybe when rodman got to the bulls you can say they hit loaded status. Jordan just made it go. And without a big man to boot. The nineties teams had talent. You'd be hard pressed to find a team right now that can beat the 93 suns or the 92 blazers. How bout the 97 and 98 jazz? Discrediting the 90's teams of what they had is not fair.

Man those were great teams. I remember those Blazer squads as juggernauts- it's a real testament to Jordan and the Bulls for being able to beat them. That summer was the Dream Team and I felt like we'd be better if we just sent the Blazers over.

That Suns team was a lot of fun too after that big comeback in the postseason, and the Jazz teams may have been the best of all to lose to the Bulls. Mike had his competition for sure.

 

[Larry89]

Should be titled, how do past ROY winners stack up to Tyreke

 

[uolj]

Sorry to resurrect a thread from last week but after Evans clinched 20-5-5 against the Rockets, some of the Rockets fans on ClutchFans wondered what about Evans makes him that much different than Steve Francis, who most people in this thread think is why below Evans' expected ceiling.

What are your answers?

Here's Francis' rookie stats:

18.0 PPG
6.6 APG
5.3 RPG
1.5 SPG
44.5 FG%

 

[Superman]

Steve Francis had a chance to be a truly great player, if you ask me. I think he kind of got caught up in the me-ism of the NBA, was a victim of a bad coaching situation (JVG is NOT the kind of guy you want coaching a player like Francis), and then had some injury and weight issues later on, along with all the trades. Was kind of a disgruntled personality, which isn't good for a star-type player. Also sort of a tweener, as he wasn't as big as Tyreke is. But for a while there, he was a 20/7/6 guy every year, which isn't anything to sneeze at. Stevie Franchise was a top ten player for a couple of seasons.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

That's the thing about comparing numbers, or numbers in general, they never really tell the whole story--and it goes the both ways. For all of the 20-5-5 hoopla, I don't really think anyone can say with a straight face that Tyreke will be as good as Oscar, MJ and Lebron. Oscar is probably the most underrated player in NBA history, no one really talks about his accomplishments enough, MJ-there is really no touching him and Lebron is just a freak of nature and the type of player that comes around once a generation.

As Supes just pointed out Steve Francis was a tremendous talent but for one reason or another never broke through that ceiling. The thing about Tyreke's game is that he is just so raw and plays the game almost solely on instinct--its only natural to assume that he'll get significantly better as he gets older. One of the biggest differences in his games is that he lacks the athleticism that so many greats and borderline "great" talents have. He plays below the rim, yet gets scores purely on lay-ups. He can't just beat his guy and then dunk on him like so many players do or have done. A lot of players rely a lot on athleticism and quickness, qualities we know Tyreke does not excel in. I see Tyreke differently he has the "craftiness" that you see in veterans (amongst other qualities)

 

[est.1999]

Yeah he was a fun player to watch. I think mobley getting traded really hurt him and affected his game too.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Steve was a major headcase who refused to sign with the team that drafted him whereas a small market seems to suit Evans just fine so I'm guessing Evans isn't going to get too big for his britches, which is the major problem that plagues a do-it-all-guard. His detractors are already declaring him a ball hog, which he may be in the most literal sense, but he's not in the sense that typically wrecks a team's chemistry. He carries this team. And then Evans is significantly larger for his position which is what gives him such a high ceiling on where he can go.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Yeah he was a fun player to watch. I think mobley getting traded really hurt him and affected his game too.

Alternatively, you could make the case that Francis' development was retarded by his bro-mance with Mobley.

I think I read on Clutchcity last week that some people were speculating that DeMar DeRozan and Sonny Weems in Toronto may be the new "Stevie and Cat."

 

[Sac.Kings]

That's the thing about comparing numbers, or numbers in general, they never really tell the whole story--and it goes the both ways. For all of the 20-5-5 hoopla, I don't really think anyone can say with a straight face that Tyreke will be as good as Oscar, MJ and Lebron. Oscar is probably the most underrated player in NBA history, no one really talks about his accomplishments enough, MJ-there is really no touching him and Lebron is just a freak of nature and the type of player that comes around once a generation.

As Supes just pointed out Steve Francis was a tremendous talent but for one reason or another never broke through that ceiling. The thing about Tyreke's game is that he is just so raw and plays the game almost solely on instinct--its only natural to assume that he'll get significantly better as he gets older. One of the biggest differences in his games is that he lacks the athleticism that so many greats and borderline "great" talents have. He plays below the rim, yet gets scores purely on lay-ups. He can't just beat his guy and then dunk on him like so many players do or have done. A lot of players rely a lot on athleticism and quickness, qualities we know Tyreke does not excel in. I see Tyreke differently he has the "craftiness" that you see in veterans (amongst other qualities)

I think that this actually benefits Tyreke because he does not have to rely on athleticism. Lebron will not be able to dunk on people forever, and a lot of his game is based on the fact that he is athletically superior to anyone in the gym. Once his jumping ability disappears, so will his points per game. However, Lebron is a great passer and knows the game really well, so he will always be able to play. Tyreke is almost old school in his style of play and his layups (instead of dunks) will only prolong his career. I like the way Tyreke plays.

 

[ReinadelosReys]

I think that this actually benefits Tyreke because he does not have to rely on athleticism. Lebron will not be able to dunk on people forever, and a lot of his game is based on the fact that he is athletically superior to anyone in the gym. Once his jumping ability disappears, so will his points per game. However, Lebron is a great passer and knows the game really well, so he will always be able to play. Tyreke is almost old school in his style of play and his layups (instead of dunks) will only prolong his career. I like the way Tyreke plays.

That's one of the points I was trying to make

I hear the comparison, "he reminds me of...," but then I think of that players game and yea, they are very good at going to the basket, but those players use athleticism and jumping ability that Tyreke does not posses. He's strong, bullies his way through defenders or fakes them out with beautiful footwork and handles.

 

[Superman]

Steve was a major headcase who refused to sign with the team that drafted him whereas a small market seems to suit Evans just fine so I'm guessing Evans isn't going to get too big for his britches, which is the major problem that plagues a do-it-all-guard. His detractors are already declaring him a ball hog, which he may be in the most literal sense, but he's not in the sense that typically wrecks a team's chemistry. He carries this team. And then Evans is significantly larger for his position which is what gives him such a high ceiling on where he can go.

I don't blame him for not wanting to play for the Vancouver Grizzlies, even though it's definitely a prima-donna thing to do as a rookie. I have no doubt that that wound up being a better career move for him, getting to play with The Dream for a couple of seasons and be around some guys who had won something, rather than stuck on one of the worst franchises in the NBA at the time.

But that's definitely a contrast between him and Tyreke, because our guy has apparently embraced the Sacto environment and can hopefully thrive in it. Obviously, Sacramento loves him, it's good that KJ is taking an interest in him as a player and the future of the franchise, and maybe he'll be able to capture in his career what Steve Francis was never able to.