Harry Giles and other thoughts

#1
Hi Everyone, long time forum reader. This is my first post about the team. Basically, Pete Youngman is saying Harry Giles will succeed here or someplace else. He seems to validate something is going on and Carmichael Dave and Matt George seem to also validate this with somewhat cryptic tweets.
"Some place else" is a phrase terrifying to me. Harry Giles needs to succeed in Sacramento as a King. He needs to play his entire career in Sacramento as a King.
Normally, I dont put much weight into rumors or innuendo but the fact Pete Youngman attests to his talent, potential and likeliness to succeed sort of substantiates the idea "something" odd is going on behind the scenes.

Also, of note, Harry liked the tweet. That in it of itself is meaningful. Then there were other additional somewhat cryptic tweets by Carmichael Dave and Matt George which seem to support "behind the scenes" issues.

Harry Giles is the type of talent that doesnt fall into the Kings lap very often. Yes he had injuries and those injuries made experts question his long term viability as an NBA player.

Harry has shown flashes of his vast potential. His passing is simply amazing. He plays hard. He "gets" Sacramento, its fans and he wants to succeed as a King.

At the same time, Richaun Holmes has been the Kings best and most consistent player. He stands out even when other Kings are struggling. He has embraced Sacramento, loves the community and its fans. In a lot of ways these traits mirror Giles traits. Holmes took some time to grow and become the player who he is today and likewise Giles needs time as well...perhaps together with Holmes.

Pete Youngman is essentially vouching for Harry that something is going on and his talent will be shown one day, be it here in Sacramento or someplace else. Someplace else is simply unacceptable. Harry is the type of player that does not fall into the Kings laps. His passing, court vision, energy and passion for the game are obvious and unquestioned. The lingering questions about Giles are about his ability to recover from injuries.

Pete Youngman has now answered that question. He is basically saying that Harry will succeed somewhere.

As a Kings fan for almost my entire life this is disheartening and entirely unacceptable. Harry is an immensely talented player, formerly THE top
player in his high school class. Harry is an underdog now because of his injuries. In a lot of ways he is the perfect player to root for as a Sacramento Kings fan. Harry loves Sacramento. He speaks highly of the city and of its fans. He has embraced the team and wants to be part of the change.
Harry was a part of the teams plans for the future. The team invested in him and believed in him. Until suddenly they didn’t and they declined his option. He cannot even get into a game in garbage time. Even Caleb Swanigan plays in garbage time.

Fast forward to this summer and the Kings signed four players, three of which for large dollar amounts in Dedmon, Ariza, and Joseph. Joseph unquestionably has been helpful in spite of his offensive flaws. He has literally shut down star players and his impact has been a pleasant surprise.
Ariza has made some amazing plays, and then disappeared other times. He has been impactful and helpful and positive for the most part. Dedmon has been awful at the price being paid. Richaun Holmes has been the teams MVP. He is probably the teams best player and we are lucky to have him. Holmes signing at that price is a coup for the team.

Signing Dedmon was popular at the time but his contract now looks ridiculous. Apparently his signing played some role in not paying Giles 3.98 million for next year. This was unpopular at the time and remains unpopular.

In seeing these new cryptic tweets and seeing Pete Youngman vouch for Giles this also makes the move of not extending the 3.98 million offer insane. Management once again is demonstrating incompetence and losing a player in Giles who is so immensely talented and loves Sacramento will hamstring our team for years to come.

I don’t know why all of this is happening but if the team wanted to experiment with winning then trying Holmes with Giles would not be a bad idea. Both players are underdogs for different t reasons. Holmes because he has had to work for everything in life and plays that way and Giles because of injuries.

Normally I wouldn’t make much of this whole scenario and I would have faith in team decisions but the fact that Pete Youngman (who was treated poorly by the team himself) is vouching for Giles makes me wonder yet again what the team is doing.

In a vacuum spending an absurd amount of money on a player that does not fit and then not spending a comparatively smaller amount of money on a player oozing with potential and with the full support of the previous training staff seems to show the Kings management remains incompetent.

It makes me wonder if they are not playing him to cover for their mistake. If this is the case, it also hamstrings the Kings from playing Holmes and Giles together. Imagine if Giles were allowed to play with Holmes. It cant be any worse than some of these other combinations. The team would have two energy players out there and Giles can have an offense run through him. Normally it is worth a shot to try a new combination but the team cannot try this because they erred with not picking up his option.

This will never happen and it is apparent because Giles cannot even leave the bench in a blowout. And these cryptic tweets coupled with Youngmans frank tweet seem to indicate something other than injury is going on. And oh btw Harry liked Youngmans tweet.

Why this franchise still makes mistakes like this is crazy. It’s also why the team, despite an upward swing seems to take two steps back. Who could the team get in free agency at Harry’s option price of 3.98 million? Even Richaun Holmes is around 5 million, a bargain, but more than Giles option.
I have always loved the Kings but the Giles issue really makes one think if the team still has some Kangz to it. This will obviously be proven true or false this year or next. This should never even be a question , at least this year and especially at that price. This should never be an issue when a player like Giles, as talented as he is, and validated by the Kings long time trainer vouches for Giles and believes he can succeed. This should never be an issue when this same talented player “gets" Sacramento and is an amazing person who promotes the city and the team. He is a consummate professional and is the type of player the team needs. Even if Harry only becomes a rotational player all of those qualities are meaningful.

It’s a shame we will never see Holmes and Giles together. Imagine if Harry got Bagleys minutes. We saw last year he can spark the team. I am hopeful the team retains Harry Giles but judging from these tweets perhaps it isn’t meant to be in Sacramento. I hope I am wrong. This is how it feels to be a Kings fan…always feels like we cant have nice things even when we already have them. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
 
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VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#3
MOD NOTE: The thread title has been changed to reflect the basic topic at hand...Harry Giles. :)
 
#6
The whole thing is bizarre. This was the same organization that through their mouth pieces on the radio (Grant and Doug) was promoting Giles heavily before last season saying he looks amazing in practice and that he will be a rookie-of-the-year candidate. Of course a couple months into the season we knew the ROY stuff was all BS preseason propaganda but Grant/Doug were still heavily promoting Giles late into last season and saying things like we can't wait to see the jump he makes next year.

Even early to middle off-season this summer they were still mentioning Harry as part of the young core but I did notice with less fervor. It did seem also as the summer went on and fall approached with training camp that something changes because suddenly he became an afterthought.

Unless his knees are just completely destroyed, not picking up his option is beyond idiotic. If his knees are ok or even could be ok then surely some other team will take the gamble (if you can even call it that) and sign him to something like 2/12 in free agency. Why Vlade would just give up on a young asset like this is just mind boggling. The mystery could be helped if they would just say something.

All we've heard prior too for 2 years is what a kid that Giles is and how hard he works while also being humble. What changed?
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#7
...All we've heard prior too for 2 years is what a kid that Giles is and how hard he works while also being humble. What changed?
That's the $64,000 question...and one we might never know the answer to. For good or bad, this current front office is well sealed. Leaks are few and far between.

I just hope whatever it is can be resolved. He seems like a good kid and I wish him all the best wherever he is.
 
#10
This is why I made the post. Pete Youngman isn't going to go out on a limb like this for anyone. He also directly implies there are no injury issues AND Harry's talent will show one day, somewhere. I've been a Kings fan long enough to know that if Harry even meets half of his potential he is a special player. To potentially lose that because of something else going on behind the scenes is simply unacceptable. Giving away talent for whatever reason doesnt fly in any small market. Giving away a talent like Giles who LOVES Sacramento is simply insane. This is really going to look awful if Harry leaves and blows up somewhere and it should never ever happen.
 
#11
The whole thing is bizarre. This was the same organization that through their mouth pieces on the radio (Grant and Doug) was promoting Giles heavily before last season saying he looks amazing in practice and that he will be a rookie-of-the-year candidate. Of course a couple months into the season we knew the ROY stuff was all BS preseason propaganda but Grant/Doug were still heavily promoting Giles late into last season and saying things like we can't wait to see the jump he makes next year.

Even early to middle off-season this summer they were still mentioning Harry as part of the young core but I did notice with less fervor. It did seem also as the summer went on and fall approached with training camp that something changes because suddenly he became an afterthought.

Unless his knees are just completely destroyed, not picking up his option is beyond idiotic. If his knees are ok or even could be ok then surely some other team will take the gamble (if you can even call it that) and sign him to something like 2/12 in free agency. Why Vlade would just give up on a young asset like this is just mind boggling. The mystery could be helped if they would just say something.

All we've heard prior too for 2 years is what a kid that Giles is and how hard he works while also being humble. What changed?
The whole thing is extremely bizarre. The thing that makes this situation even worse is Youngman is essentially strongly suggesting injuries are not the issue AND Harry Giles liked the tweet. I've never ever bought into the Kings argument that Harry had to earn it. He is a hard worker and it doesnt seem like he is the type who is not working hard. I mean his whole life he has been working extra hard to come back from the injuries. One day some of this will come out. I sincerely hope Harry is a King his entire career. The Suns bot picking up Josh Jacksons option makes sense. The Kings picking up Pappagannis option and then waiving him and eating the money makes no sense and likewise not picking up Giles option makes no sense especially when you consider what the Kings can get for the same money. This is why our team always has the Kangz attached to them in spite of successes. This should never ever happen, especially if the context of the decision has nothing to do with injuries.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#13
The whole thing is extremely bizarre. The thing that makes this situation even worse is Youngman is essentially strongly suggesting injuries are not the issue AND Harry Giles liked the tweet. I've never ever bought into the Kings argument that Harry had to earn it. He is a hard worker and it doesnt seem like he is the type who is not working hard. I mean his whole life he has been working extra hard to come back from the injuries. One day some of this will come out. I sincerely hope Harry is a King his entire career. The Suns bot picking up Josh Jacksons option makes sense. The Kings picking up Pappagannis option and then waiving him and eating the money makes no sense and likewise not picking up Giles option makes no sense especially when you consider what the Kings can get for the same money. This is why our team always has the Kangz attached to them in spite of successes. This should never ever happen, especially if the context of the decision has nothing to do with injuries.
Oh come on. Defaulting to the "Kangz" got old and trite a long time ago.

In all fairness, we don't know what's happened with Giles. Everyone seems to be assuming because of some cryptic comments from Pete Youngman (for whom I have the utmost respect) that it's entirely the fault of the front office and the coaching staff. I'm not ready to leap to that conclusion quite yet.

I had high hopes for Giles, even grabbed him last year in my keeper league. Thus far, he's shown very little except a tendency to be foul prone (which, in all fairness, is something a lot of rookies have to get over).

Again, we do not know what's going on. Pete Youngman also said:


He's hoping things work out and Harry is able to stay in Sacramento, so I don't think there's anything nefarious going on.

All in all, I kinda wish former Kings employees wouldn't go on Twitter and put out hints at things when they cannot or will not make clear statements. It leads to nothing but speculation and over-reactions at times.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#14
If he's going to succeed it won't be with the Kings. They declined his option, he's not getting any playing time and there's evidence of him being unhappy. There seems to be bad blood all-around.

He's as good as gone.
There it is...the leap right off assumption cliff and into conclusion pond. ;)
 
#15
Oh come on. Defaulting to the "Kangz" got old and trite a long time ago.

In all fairness, we don't know what's happened with Giles. Everyone seems to be assuming because of some cryptic comments from Pete Youngman (for whom I have the utmost respect) that it's entirely the fault of the front office and the coaching staff. I'm not ready to leap to that conclusion quite yet.

I had high hopes for Giles, even grabbed him last year in my keeper league. Thus far, he's shown very little except a tendency to be foul prone (which, in all fairness, is something a lot of rookies have to get over).

Again, we do not know what's going on. Pete Youngman also said:


He's hoping things work out and Harry is able to stay in Sacramento, so I don't think there's anything nefarious going on.

All in all, I kinda wish former Kings employees wouldn't go on Twitter and put out hints at things when they cannot or will not make clear statements. It leads to nothing but speculation and over-reactions at times.
There remains the potential something nefarious is going on. If it is not injury related it doesnt make sense. The Kings believed in his talent and his talent when he plays is quite evident and passes the "eye test." I think it's more than fair to throw things out there. I love the Kings. I've loved them good, or bad for several decades now. But the thing is Sacramento has an outside reputation with having "soft" media that doesnt ask the tough questions. This is validated by the narratives put out by certain media personalities connected with the team. Not knowing, or at least not even asking these questions (the regular media hasn't) is unheard of in other sports towns. If someone is touted as having the ability and talent to be a major piece, and then not have their option picked up, and then doesnt even play in blowouts, then those questions should be asked. I'm hoping Giles remains a King. I dont know if he will or he wont but I think its refreshing Youngman chimed in. I mean he was simply thrown aside for no reason himself and he had done so much for the team for years. And he knows Giles well...and he is at least trying to provide some perspective on the issue.
 
#17
I find the Youngman tweets interesting, especially the part where Harry Giles liked it and Youngman more or less gave us a time-frame of when things went sour.

3-6 months ago. That sounds like offseason training and training camp to me.

I have a theory of how this went down. Harry Giles comes in to camp out of shape. Whether he was actually out of shape or not living up to the FO's unrealistic standards is irrelevant.

This was the start of the bad blood.

Vlade values #CharacterMatters more than the talent or competence at his disposal. Any perceived slight to chemistry or the workplace environment means the hammer is getting brought down. See: Cousins, Demarcus. Williams, Brandon. Joerger, David. That first one is really important. I don't believe trading Cousins was ever about the return and getting a headstart on a rebuild. I think it was about jettisoning him out of here at all costs.

So the hammer got brought down on Giles. Either to give up on him completely or make him "earn" it in an attempt that will surely backfire.

What we're seeing now with his picture on a milk carton I think could be a number of things, but whatever the intentions I think there's too much bad blood now. Even if they think they made a mistake in hindsight and rushed to keep him on the bench and under the rader to resign him, I doubt Giles would go for it.
 
#18
I have been in mr Giles camp and have really wanted him to succeed. But like others his not playing and without injury news to me means he will be gone unfortunately.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#19
I find the Youngman tweets interesting, especially the part where Harry Giles liked it and Youngman more or less gave us a time-frame of when things went sour.

3-6 months ago. That sounds like offseason training and training camp to me.

I have a theory of how this went down. Harry Giles comes in to camp out of shape. Whether he was actually out of shape or not living up to the FO's unrealistic standards is irrelevant.

This was the start of the bad blood.


Vlade values #CharacterMatters more than the talent or competence at his disposal. Any perceived slight to chemistry or the workplace environment means the hammer is getting brought down. See: Cousins, Demarcus. Williams, Brandon. Joerger, David. That first one is really important. I don't believe trading Cousins was ever about the return and getting a headstart on a rebuild. I think it was about jettisoning him out of here at all costs.

So the hammer got brought down on Giles. Either to give up on him completely or make him "earn" it in an attempt that will surely backfire.

What we're seeing now with his picture on a milk carton I think could be a number of things, but whatever the intentions I think there's too much bad blood now. Even if they think they made a mistake in hindsight and rushed to keep him on the bench and under the rader to resign him, I doubt Giles would go for it.
I may not agree with your entire post, but the part I've bolded sure seems on target.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#20
Another puzzler: The NBC Sports My Team app features Giles, Fox, Hield and Bagley. If Harry Giles was truly in the team doghouse, they would have changed that picture.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#21
anything that's going to be put out there by anyone right about now should be taken with a grain of salt unless it's from a reliable source and you know when the fans are going to really figure out what happened behind the scenes? when Giles is no longer here.
 
#22
Some of you folks are something else. They’ve said what happened—Harry was not in town, did his own workout routine all summer instead of what the training staff instructed him to do, and then showed up to camp unready. Youngman worked with Harry during his redshirt year, when he was universally applauded for work ethic and coachability.

Now, that’s the publicly stated timeline. I think that, in addition, he begged off of summer league due to “injury/soreness/whatever” and that’s what threw up the initial red flag for the FO. But, the public timeline is enough to explain the current situation.
 
#23
Harry Giles is talented. When the Kings are struggling against the Grizzlies they obviously lack talent on the court. Harry can help but the team just let's him sit. Also, on another note the team lets JJ sit too and he didn't even do anything "wrong."
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#24
Harry Giles is talented. When the Kings are struggling against the Grizzlies they obviously lack talent on the court. Harry can help but the team just let's him sit. Also, on another note the team lets JJ sit too and he didn't even do anything "wrong."
Harry Giles has potential. His talent at the NBA level is yet to be seen. Saying he would help the team against the Grizzlies is wishful thinking IMHO. He's a foul magnet.
 

SLAB

Hall of Famer
#25
Harry Giles has potential. His talent at the NBA level is yet to be seen. Saying he would help the team against the Grizzlies is wishful thinking IMHO. He's a foul magnet.
He got better as time went on though? He was AWFUL with the fouls at the beginning of last season, then after the GLeague stint outside of a few stinkers where he went back to old habits (probably countable on one hand) it wasn’t a huge problem.

This season. Who knows, he only played a handful of games and was probably pressing so idk.
 

VF21

#KingsFansForever
Staff member
#26
He got better as time went on though? He was AWFUL with the fouls at the beginning of last season, then after the GLeague stint outside of a few stinkers where he went back to old habits (probably countable on one hand) it wasn’t a huge problem.

This season. Who knows, he only played a handful of games and was probably pressing so idk.
I don't disagree with any of that. I just think tossing him into the Grizzlies game would be an exercise in futility. ;)
 
#28
It's not even really about Giles' talent.

It's more about the fact that this is terrible asset management all around.
I'm not even sure Vlade cares about assets. He sure hasn't shown an affinity for them. I like character/culture too but it would sure be nice to have that in conjunction with keeping (let alone creating) additional assets.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#29
I'm as befuddled as anyone about the Giles saga. I was certainly on the Giles bandwagon. Did he foul to much, well yes, but then that's really only a concern if he's a player who's expected to play 28 to 30 minutes a game. He wasn't, at least at that point in his career. Not saying that wasn't something he needed to correct, but that it shouldn't have prevented him from being on the floor for 18 or so minutes a game. Whatever the reason, I don't think it had anything to do with his performance on the floor.

I'll admit that I was as shocked as everyone else when they didn't pick up his option. I heard the rumor that he showed up out of shape, but he certainly didn't look out of shape. I mean come on, I was at summer league, and if anyone was out of shape, it was Swanigan, and he's still here. I'll admit that I was surprised when Giles didn't participate in summer league. And maybe the answer lies there. He did do his training away from the teams trainers. But hey, most players do their off season training away from Sacramento.

Maybe they expected more from Giles because of all the time and money they had invested in him, without much in return up to now. At the same time, at worse, he's and asset that you would hope, would bring something back in return. The Kings seem to have cut ties without even caring about losing any value he might bring. That makes no sense!

Obviously, there's something we don't know, and we may never know. I certainly hope that somehow, someway, he's able to work back into the good graces of the team, and we're able to retain him. There are players that your gut tells you are special. I've always felt that way about Giles. But like everyone else, I'm on the outside looking in, and while the blinds aren't completely closed, it's really hard to see what's going on inside.
 

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#30
The Kings have invested a lot in Giles, not just in a draft pick, but in money and in hundreds of man-hours in coaching him up. I don't see Vlade & Walton giving up on that investment unless they have a very good reason for doing so. In fact, I would think it would be very painful for them to do so, given all that they've invested. My guess is that the secrecy is for the benefit of the young man, not for protecting the reputation of the organization.