Good Player on Bad Team?

nbrans

nbrans

All-Star
It seems like it's conventional wisdom here and around the NBA that you have to beware of a "good stat guy on a bad team," a guy who puts up good numbers on a losing team but won't deliver for a winning team. Everyone points to Shareef Abdur-Rahim as possibly being that type of player. And a lot of people forget that Bibby had that label before he came to the Kings.

But you know, I've really been thinking hard, and I can't think of any examples of that type of player. Do these supposed "good players on bad teams" who can't deliver for good teams really exist?

Good players are good players. Bad teams have to play the Spurs just like the good teams, and if a player is good he's good. If you surround a player with good teammates they're going to thrive, if their surrounding players are bad not even the best player is going to win.

Can anyone think of players who actually fit this "good stat guy on bad team" mold? It seems like a myth to me.
 
Their are guys who are stat fillers. They tend to perform their best on bad teams because they get all the shots. This is not to say they can't perform above average on a good team.
 
yanon said:
Their are guys who are stat fillers. They tend to perform their best on bad teams because they get all the shots. This is not to say they can't perform above average on a good team.
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Like who?
 
If a good player can't play good on a good team, then you might also have a bad coach. But, so far we've seen Both Reef and Bonzi play very well. So I think Adelman is using their skills correctly. It's been other players who haven't been doing what they a capable of doing - KT, Peja, Bibby and Hart. Hopefully Peja and Bibby found their game Sunday and the others will soon.
 
Insomniacal Fan said:
I just didn't think his stint with Dallas was good for his numbers, Dallas being an otherwise good team.
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Well, he was asked to play an ancillary role. I think he did it quite well.

I just don't think Walker was ever that GREAT of a player. I mean, looking at his stats, he is a volume shooter who plays out of control.
 
deviflux said:
He put up GOOD numbers on a GOOD team, but less than his average numbers on a BAD team.
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This is not technically accurate; Walker has put up good numbers on a bad team (BOS pre-99/ATL), good numbers on a mediocre team (BOS post-99), and mediocre numbers on a good team (DAL). He has yet to prove that he can actually put up "good" numbers on a "good" team.
 
Mr. S£im Citrus said:
This is not technically accurate; Walker has put up good numbers on a bad team (BOS pre-99/ATL), good numbers on a mediocre team (BOS post-99), and mediocre numbers on a good team (DAL). He has yet to prove that he can actually put up "good" numbers on a "good" team.
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He's doing it in Miami right now. After 3 games, 18 PPG, 8 RPG. Shooting over 45%.

Of course, I still think he was ALWAYS overrated. Could have been one of the greats, but doesn't have the mind. He's doesn't WANT to work to be great.

Shooting sub 43% (and worse - sub 40%) is terrible.
 
deviflux said:
He's doing it in Miami right now. After 3 games, 18 PPG, 8 RPG. Shooting over 45%.

Of course, I still think he was ALWAYS overrated. Could have been one of the greats, but doesn't have the mind. He's doesn't WANT to work to be great.

Shooting sub 43% (and worse - sub 40%) is terrible.
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That'll change when James Posey comes back, who is and was the starter, but he got an injury in pre-season to be out 2 weeks or so (then).
 
The only possible examples I could think of are Stephon Marbury and Elton Brand, only Brand's teams have been mostly terrible.

And other than playing with KG when they were both young, Marbury's supporting casts have never really been that good, so I don't know if he counts either. The only team of his that should have possibly been better was the 2002-2003 Suns (Marbury, Marion, Stoudemire as a rookie, Penny, a young Joe Johnson) -- but then, they faced the eventual-champion Spurs in the playoffs and that was that. Can't expect a whole lot more than that.
 
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Jerry Stackhouse, Michael Redd, Al Harrington, Joe Johnson, Antawn Jamison (though not so much, just that he was 3rd fiddle when he was supposed to be first).... just off the top of my head. Big fish in small ponds. True colors come out on top tier teams.

Oh, how could I forget Jalen Rose. Though he's starting to suck now with age even on a bad team.

Maurice Taylor, Juwan Howard... Once you get started you can't stop... I'm sure there are more I'm still not thinking of.
 
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Zyphen said:
Jerry Stackhouse, Michael Redd, Al Harrington, Joe Johnson, Antawn Jamison (though not so much, just that he was 3rd fiddle when he was supposed to be first).... just off the top of my head. Big fish in small ponds. True colors come out on top tier teams.

Oh, how could I forget Jalen Rose. Though he's starting to suck now with age even on a bad team.
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Guys like Francis and Marbury potentially too.

Juwann Howard. Raef LaFrentz. Nick Van Exel (potent wherever he's been, but a 20pt scorer for the lottery Nuggets). Big Country Reeves. Maurice Taylor. Dipping into Kings lore -- Otis Thorpe. Kenny Smith, Wayman Tisdale. Anotine Carr. Walt Williams. Ron Mercer. Darrel Armstrong. Keith Van Horn. Rod Strickland. Calbert Cheaney. Our own Doug Christie. Daamon Stoudamire. Christian Laetner (think did have one good year for the playoff Hawks though), Lamond Murray, Isiah Rider, Jim Jackson, Toni Kukoc (although did average 15 one year for the good buklls, averaged 18-19 afterwards). Arman Gilliam. Gary Trent. Robert Pakc. Chris Gatling. Cutino Mobley. Michael Dickerson. Rex Chapman. Don MacLean. Vin Baker. Corliss Williamson. Erick Dampier looks like a candidate. Michael Olowakandi. Jeff McInnis. Stanley Roberts. Rick Fox. Dana Barros. Dino Radja.

And that's tip of the iceberg. Some of those guys could contribute to a winning team. Some could not. A few had one decent year for a good team. Many not even that. All had inflated stats playing for bad teams where they got as many shots as they wanted, from wherever on the floor they wanted, playing as many minutes as they wanted despire their deficiencies.
 
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Stephon Marbury always puts up great stats, but almost always seems to make the team he plays on worse. He is the most selfish player to average 8+ assists over his career.
 
nbrans said:
Everyone points to Shareef Abdur-Rahim as possibly being that type of player. And a lot of people forget that Bibby had that label before he came to the Kings.
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Do you remember who Bibby's teammate was when he had that label? Here's a hint: he plays for the Kings
 
goggles99 said:
Chuckle...
Yeahhh beware of Lebron James, he's a "good stat guy on a bad team," :eek: :eek:

Also Tmac (Orlando), KG...
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Yeah, and those guys are/were/will be good stat guys on good teams. Gerald Wallace, however, is not. T-mac didn't get benched going to Houston nor even played second fiddle to Yao.

I thought it was pretty clear what the phrase meant. Apparently, not for some people.
 
Zyphen said:
Oh, Gerald Wallace. Enough said.
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Because he's been getting playing time and starting? Ha.

Bobcats are a young team that is developing players and chemistry. So most people just call them bad. I'd say bad record. This year they won't have a good record (I'd think), but that's because they're still growing as a whole.
 
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Zyphen said:
Yeah, and those guys are/were/will be good stat guys on good teams. Gerald Wallace, however, is not. T-mac didn't get benched going to Houston nor even played second fiddle to Yao.

I thought it was pretty clear what the phrase meant. Apparently, not for some people.
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How many playoff series has TMac won? Here's a hint: any number you multiply by it results in zero.
 
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Tarzan said:
How many playoff series has TMac won? Here's a hint: any number you multiply by it results in zero.
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And the relevance of that to this discussion would be?

Mavericks fan or not, if you're attempting to throw that out to prove that TMac is not the real deal you're just being silly. Keith Van Horn and Jerry Stackhouse are "good player on bad teams" syndrome guys -- they can score 20 for a lottery team, 10-14 for a winning team. TMac is the real deal regardless of how good the team he is playing on. If his playoff woes matter, it is in his ranking amongst the league's superstars, not vis a vis the pretenders.
 
Tarzan said:
How many playoff series has TMac won? Here's a hint: any number you multiply by it results in zero.
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I can't wait until this year's playoffs where Tracy's team brings it as much as he did against the Mavs. Then we'll see.
 
Kings113 said:
Because he's been getting playing time and starting? Ha
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Which is the entire point of the thread... picking out guys who put up good stats because they're given more playing time since there's no one better around...


I'm not sure if these guys responding to me are idiots or deliberately obtuse. If you can't see the difference between the Gerald Wallaces and T-macs of the world, I got nothing more to say to you. Would just be wasting my time.
 
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He's starting because he started last year in the team's innaugral year and impressed the staff to keep it. Bobcats are a young team.
 
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