Fox update
- Thread starter KainLear
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macadocious
Starter
It’s a bummer, he was so vocal about not wanting the vaccination, he could have just avoided all this.
HndsmCelt
Hall of Famer
Yep, he makes brilliant decisions on the court not so much when it comes to Covid.
Telemachus
Starter
I could name a dozen people I know who got sick after getting vaccinated and missed a week or two of work. There is no guarantee the results would've been any different for him.
macadocious
Starter
You personally know a dozen people who were fully vaccinated, then contracted Covid AND were sick for two weeks?
steelevt
All-Star
Prob meant got some of the side effects of the shots. All vaccinations can cause “flu like” symptoms (low grade fever, body aches fatigue etc) afterwards so they’re prob talking about that. Usually lasts a couple days to a week at most but I guess there can be outliers. Actually contracting covid and feeling sick for 2 weeks after getting the shot is not impossible but very unlikely.
macadocious
Starter
Lol, well that’s not what he said, but I call bullcrap on that as well.
Section 101
All-Star
I've had more than 5 co workers get their first shot and miss 2+ days of work. Others came back the same day.
macadocious
Starter
yup, I know lots too. Totally different than a dozen people he personally knows being sick for 7-14 days.
I literally have a google spreadsheet documenting all my friend dates of getting all their vaccinations and their side effects after both shots. There’s over 100 people on it currently and growing. 2 people were affected more than 2 days. One was pretty bad, he went to the hospital. They still can’t figure out why.
Telemachus
Starter
Some got covid and some had a bad reaction to the vaccine.
Telemachus
Starter
Most of the ones I know had their reaction after the 2nd shot.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
Some of you are very ill-informed. It’s a virus. Like influenza, receiving a vaccination doesn’t suddenly provide immunity forever. If at all. And this vaccination doesn’t have 90 years of research and clinical trials behind it like influenza and various strains do. There are still a lot more unknowns than knowns right now.
Point is, there’s no guarantee Fox and his fiancé could have “avoided all this”. You don’t even know which variation he and his fiancé were infected with.
As for those that have opted to receive a vaccination that only has emergency approval and less than a year of clinical trials behind it, if unforeseen complications do arise down the road from it — are you going to say that the people that rushed out to get it “could have just avoided all this”?
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No, it doesn't provide immunity forever. Nobody said it did. But being the virus has been in the USA about a year and even those that got the first vaccination shots still seem to be generating sufficient antibodies (last I heard), the vaccinations appear to work at least as well as the flu shot. Actually, better, as the flu shot sometimes doesn't address the predominant flu strain that year. The COVID vaccine works against the variants.
About 150 million people in the US have received at least one shot and about 110 million have received both, including myself, my wife, my son, and both sets of grandparents. Other than a very small handful of cases where someone had an allergic reaction to the shot there have been few, if any, COVID hospitalizations and no COVID-caused deaths among those who got the shots (IIRC). Compare that to the 580,000 deaths in the USA and over 2 million hospitalizations due to severe COVID symptoms for the unvaccinated. And that's not even addressing Long COVID side effects that last for months or longer. The vaccines generally work well against the variants, at least for now. The quicker everyone gets vaccinated the quicker we tamp down potential variants as well.
Yes, they could have avoided the worst of it, unless they were one of an extremely unlucky handful of people. The vaccines work. Don't kid yourself.
Yes, there are side effects for a couple days, especially after the second shot. My wife got flu symptoms and body aches. I got a mild headache and was tired for a couple of days. My son was similar to me, with a few aches. My parents (around 80 years old) didn't have much of a reaction at all and felt fine after. My in-laws I think had a mild reaction, but it was over in a couple days. Everyone I know at work that got it or are friends with had similar stories. Nothing more than feeling a bit under the weather for a couple days, max.
They have been working on coronaviruses for over a decade. This wasn't something brand new to scientists. Modern medicine is now able to quickly do genetic sequencing, etc., to learn how to formulate effective vaccines. This isn't the early 1900's, you know.
Just like the flu shot, this is taking a bit of dead virus/genetic virus material and creating a vaccine. What unforeseen complications are you thinking of? Not dying or suffering a long term hospital stay? No Long COVID to deal with? Fine with me. Those are the "complications" I like to hear about.
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That's .... vague. Bad reaction? A very few people are allergic to one or more ingredients. That's why they want you to hang out for 15 minutes after the shot to see if you have any kind of reaction. It's like being allergic to peanut butter and then "having a bad reaction" when you eat it.
The vaccine also takes a couple weeks after the second shot to become most effective. They could have caught COVID before their second shot and it wasn't a reaction to the shot itself at all.
My dad had both shots and still tested positive for COVID a month later; he had an asymptomatic case. But he didn't even know he had it and didn't feel sick. It happens. Nothing is 100% foolproof.
Actually, this is a completely different type of vaccine from conventional vaccines. Rather than use dead virus to spur an immune response against viral proteins, the COVID vaccines deliver mRNA which codes for a viral protein into the body's cells, either encasing the mRNA in lipid nanoparticles (Pfizer/Moderna) or infecting the cells with an otherwise-deactivated common cold virus (J&J/AZ). Then the infected/lipid-fused cells produce the protein from the mRNA and spit it back out into the bloodstream (this is similar to what happens when an active virus infects a cell, but instead of hijacking the cell's machinery to make a full copy of a virus, only one protein is made).
This approach is being taken mostly because conventional vaccines take a long time to produce (because a lot of virus has to be cultured) and immediate demand for this vaccine is very high. Additionally there are always concerns about not-adequately-disabled virus actually producing infection, but this has not stopped many other conventional vaccines.
Notably, the lipid nanoparticle technology is quite new, and while it has been used in small scale non-vaccine gene therapy applications, the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines are the very first vaccines to use this technology. Viral vector vaccines (e.g. J&J, AZ) have been around for several decades but have not yet been used at large scale - I think the most prominent viral vector vaccine before COVID was for Ebola, a disease with a scary-high IFR where the danger of accidental infection from a traditional vaccine is unacceptable.
Because these technologies are new or mostly new to vaccine use, the full range of effects just aren't known yet. In principle, the mRNA that gets into cells should break down relatively quickly, and there should be no risk of the sequence being inserted into the cell's DNA (as with retroviruses) because there shouldn't be any reverse transcriptase around. But stranger things have happened, and while we shouldn't expect there to be any long-term side effect consequences of these newer vaccine types, we just don't *know*.
In addition to long-term consequences, there are numerous reports of short-term issues including death - these reports have caused the J&J and AZ vaccines to be discontinued in many places. It appears that these may be the result of over-efficient production of the COVID "spike protein" coded for in the mRNA - too much spike protein in the bloodstream apparently can cause coagulation issues leading to blood clotting and strokes. Similar concerns would exist for the Pfizer/Moderna vaccines, though it's possible that those vaccines are less likely to "overproduce" the spike protein - their protein production efficiency is evidently lower, seeing as they require two doses. This is all in addition to the expected immune response side effects (fever, muscle ache, malaise etc.) which are known to be quite widespread - in fact if you don't experience these symptoms from the vaccine there might be concern that your injection didn't work at all.
Still, we're really in the "fog of war" right now with respect to vaccine side effects (both short term and unknown but unlikely long term) and it's going to take quite a while to sort it all out. We're dealing with new technologies that were rushed onto the scene with somewhat limited clinical trials that don't have full FDA approval but are working under an emergency use authorization. We're also still not quite sure what the efficacy of the vaccines is, and now that there are a lot of people "fully vaccinated" we're beginning to see cases trickle in of people who have been vaccinated but later come down with COVID anyway. In the end, the vaccine side effects probably turn out to be rare enough and the efficacy high enough to make game theory point towards taking the vaccine rather than not, but the numbers really are not in yet.
Because of that, it's not at all unreasonable for someone who is young and otherwise healthy, who we know will have a 99.9+ percent chance of surviving COVID if they contract it (and may have already unknowingly have contracted it and be immune) to be hesitant about taking an additional unknown risk from the vaccine.
Well put. I was going to respond with something similar, except with my community college level of intelligence with lots of "dudes" and "bros" thrown in....but you pretty much covered it.
macadocious
Starter
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/3873247001
They’ve been working on corona virus vaccinations since 1991. They were ramped up in 02/03 w SARS and MERS but those burnt out naturally so companies weren’t going to spend money on a little used vaccine.
It does not inject dead virus into you, it activated the spike protein to simulate immunity.
It’s 95% effective against severe disease.
it got out so quickly because they produced it while running the trials. That’s unheard of.
So no, I’m not Ill informed.
Telemachus
Starter
I had a manager at work who missed almost 2 weeks after her 2nd shot because of a bad reaction. They didn't specify and I didn't press for info. I had another co-worker who was out for 3 or 4 days with a bad reaction to the J & J vaccine (again, I didn't press for details). The rest all got covid (or tested positive) and were out for anywhere from 1 to 2 weeks. Most businesses won't let you back until you have a negative test.
Thanks for adding all the details - I was obviously very much simplifying things. While the delivery method for such widespread use is somewhat new, and approach is different, it is still, essentially, just providing virus information to the body to generate antibodies for it to prevent future infection by the live virus. And it is all based on existing medical technology, not anything newly developed.
The "novel" approach here eliminates the step of your body having to convert "dead" virus DNA to RNA to generate proteins by use of virus mRNA instead. These mRMA vaccines use lipids to deliver the mRNA to protect these fragile elements.
The modifications to RNA to make mRNA mimic those processes already naturally occurring in cells, which mitigates concerns about adverse reactions or long term effects with mRNA. mRNA "vaccines" have been in human trials for about a decade for treatment of tumors and also specifically for infectious diseases for several years. These aren't a completely new technology or approach just developed in 2020, it is a new application of an old one that has already been proven to work.
The use of lipids, etc., to protect and deliver the RNA has been in widespread use in FDA-approved medicines, vaccines, etc., for quite a while.
So both of these changes to "traditional" virus vaccination are just based on established medical technologies that are then combined to make this vaccine.
Nothing is 100% risk free. In no way did I intend to imply that. But we now have at least 6 months of use of these vaccines from initial human trials, about 150 million people in the USA with at least 1 shot, and no significant side effects of any noteworthy frequency that would counteract the immense good they have done to keep our health care system from collapsing upon itself and speed people back to work, etc., to help keep the economy afloat. While I understand hesitancy by some, a lot of what is getting thrown around is just fear mongering to try to convince people not to take vaccines (either specifically this one or vaccines in general).
I have no reason to doubt what you say, but other than your first example you basically just reinforced that yes, you can feel sick for a few days after your vaccination (a natural and expected side effect) and that you can still catch COVID after your first shot (as I said, my dad did as well). But testing positive and having to wait to go back isn't a "bad reaction".
Telemachus
Starter
I don't think we are disagreeing here. There are 2 people I know who had a "bad reaction" (their words). One badly and the other only mildly. The rest all got sick after getting their shots. My original point was that Fox could've easily been out for a week or two if he got vaccinated. The fact he got sick doesn't mean he made the wrong choice.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
To be fair, even if he were out after a second shot, it still wouldn't be as bad as contracting the virus and suffering potential serious cardiovascular damage. Jason Tatum still has to use an inhaler before games because of the damage to his respiratory system from COVID.
And the effects after a second shot typically disappear after 2 days. He's been out 2 weeks and it hit him hard. Long COVID could be disastrous to athlete careers.
miltonap
Starter
A lot of good posts here but I will note:
They tried making sars vaccines for like 20 years and completely failed because of antibody dependent enhancement, the animals would die when exposed to the wild virus (they were fine after getting vaccinated).
I understand Moderna has also struggled to make mRNA vaccines, not being able to make it past phase 3 trials.
For those that say side effects are rare and not anything to be concerned of, sorry, when there's numerous reports that come out every single day of young people experiencing heart attacks or blood clots, sorry, that's not normal.
I don't really care if they've been developing it for 50 years, it's simply not normal. There's already 4000 deaths reported for these vaccines, *reported*, and we know the vast majority go unreported. And plenty of adverse events.
As a comparison, 190 million people get flu vaccines every year, and there's 20-30 deaths on average for these vaccines.
So these vaccines are in a whole different ball park.
For those that say, especially to a young person, well it's better to get the vaccine than to get Covid, how do you actually KNOW that ?
As another poster said up top, there's lots of unknowns with these vaccines, will they produce antibody dependent enhancement, autoimmunity issues, fertility issues, etc. How effective will they actually be when put against strains that are going to come out within the next 2-3-6 months ?
Because that's what actually matters. That's fine if it prevents a severe disease right now but we have to look at the full picture. Also, how much is tramission even cut?
The point is there's so many unknowns, and no this isn't fear mongering, I actually think it's the other way around. Fear mongering has been taking place during the last year to get people to rush into these vaccines in the first place.
Oh Yea, Also, no animal trials were done for these vaccines.
That being said, do I think it's intelligent to just do nothing, to not get the vaccine and do absolutely nothing ? No, I don't. I personally started prophylaxing with Ivermectin last week, I take it once a week and will do so indefinitely until I see where this thing is going.
Ivermectin on the contrary has 30 years of safety data and according to clinical studies, epidemiological studies, accounts from front line docs and patients, it simply works and is extremely effective against Covid. And it is reported to be working against variants as well, in Brazil and South Africa , it has numerous mechanisms of action against sars-cov-2 including the blockage of the organism onto our ace-2 receptors which is how the virus gets in in the first place.
Also, regarding the vaccines, we know it stimulates igg antibodies in the blood but how about iga ? In my opinion these vaccines aren't even a long term solution since they still allow shedding rather than destroying the virus outright.
For a young person, for a virus with a 99.95% survivability rate you better be damn sure that what you are injecting yourself is going to be safe, extremely safe.
This is just not known at this time
They tried making sars vaccines for like 20 years and completely failed because of antibody dependent enhancement, the animals would die when exposed to the wild virus (they were fine after getting vaccinated).
I understand Moderna has also struggled to make mRNA vaccines, not being able to make it past phase 3 trials.
For those that say side effects are rare and not anything to be concerned of, sorry, when there's numerous reports that come out every single day of young people experiencing heart attacks or blood clots, sorry, that's not normal.
I don't really care if they've been developing it for 50 years, it's simply not normal. There's already 4000 deaths reported for these vaccines, *reported*, and we know the vast majority go unreported. And plenty of adverse events.
As a comparison, 190 million people get flu vaccines every year, and there's 20-30 deaths on average for these vaccines.
So these vaccines are in a whole different ball park.
For those that say, especially to a young person, well it's better to get the vaccine than to get Covid, how do you actually KNOW that ?
As another poster said up top, there's lots of unknowns with these vaccines, will they produce antibody dependent enhancement, autoimmunity issues, fertility issues, etc. How effective will they actually be when put against strains that are going to come out within the next 2-3-6 months ?
Because that's what actually matters. That's fine if it prevents a severe disease right now but we have to look at the full picture. Also, how much is tramission even cut?
The point is there's so many unknowns, and no this isn't fear mongering, I actually think it's the other way around. Fear mongering has been taking place during the last year to get people to rush into these vaccines in the first place.
Oh Yea, Also, no animal trials were done for these vaccines.
That being said, do I think it's intelligent to just do nothing, to not get the vaccine and do absolutely nothing ? No, I don't. I personally started prophylaxing with Ivermectin last week, I take it once a week and will do so indefinitely until I see where this thing is going.
Ivermectin on the contrary has 30 years of safety data and according to clinical studies, epidemiological studies, accounts from front line docs and patients, it simply works and is extremely effective against Covid. And it is reported to be working against variants as well, in Brazil and South Africa , it has numerous mechanisms of action against sars-cov-2 including the blockage of the organism onto our ace-2 receptors which is how the virus gets in in the first place.
Also, regarding the vaccines, we know it stimulates igg antibodies in the blood but how about iga ? In my opinion these vaccines aren't even a long term solution since they still allow shedding rather than destroying the virus outright.
For a young person, for a virus with a 99.95% survivability rate you better be damn sure that what you are injecting yourself is going to be safe, extremely safe.
This is just not known at this time
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steelevt
All-Star
I don’t doubt your story that you knew people that felt sick or tested positive after the shot and being out for up to 2 weeks. Though it’s rare, it’s not impossible to test positive after the shot. But the point in bold is where I disagree. I don’t know what you do or your coworkers but on average, I’d bet at most jobs, if you had the sick days available, most people would take the maximum days allowed off even if they felt better. I know plenty of people who wouldn’t get the shot on their weekend because they knew the job would pay for them getting the shot on the job and the next day if they felt sick. Not everyone will do that but a lot do and that’s human nature. Basically just because your coworker took 2 weeks off doesn’t mean they’re sick for the whole 2 weeks (they could have but no one knows but them). Based on Fox getting to play basketball for a living and how fast he has returned from injuries, I’d bet he would come back ASAP and not drag on the time off if he felt fine. So it’s more likely he would be back in 1-2 days than 2 weeks based on averages. Also the fact he didn’t get the shot and got “hit hard” with covid DOES mean he made the wrong choice. Studies show the vaccine is up to 95% effective against covid cases with severe symptoms/hospitalization/death (You can still get covid but a mild case or asymptomatic). So based on studies if he got the shot, he we probably be back 1-2 days after and not have gotten a severe case of covid if he got it at all. Now it’s a personal choice to get the shot or not. You live with the consequences whether you do or don’t. But to say you made the right choice not getting the shot when you could have and then in turn getting a severe case of covid is factually incorrect based on our knowledge of fox’s situation.
I'll take exception to a couple of your more important points.
Your arguments continue to ignore the almost 600,000 people in the USA that have already died and the millions more requiring hospital care or suffering from Long COVID.
The blood clot issue is linked to a vaccine that isn't as widely used in the USA (Johnson & Johnson) and is the more "traditional" vaccine (not mRNA). There have been a few cases of heart attacks but they have not been higher than the number experienced by the general population (vaccine or no), so again a red herring.
The "reported" deaths are based on a "self reporting"-type system "among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine" which "accepts reports of any adverse event following vaccination, even if it is not clear the vaccine caused the problem". Many responses even state that they don't believe the vaccine to have caused the death but were reporting it anyways to eliminate any sampling bias. Then, "A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines." (per the CDC, link below) So let's not get our knickers in a twist about this when the few deaths reported are not actually linked to the vaccines and indeed appear to be unrelated. And we also have no information at all that the "vast majority go unreported". There are also no reasons to suspect any issues with pregnancy, as all women who became pregnant during clinical trials had no pregnancy issues (except for one but she was in the control group and didn't get the vaccine). Again, that's all just unsubstantiated fear mongering. In all the above situations, the risk of COVID complications outweighs these risks by orders of magnitude.
Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC
At this point, I'm shutting this one down. The thread has gone off track from the original intent and we are just re-hashing a thread that got shut down previously for the same reason (IIRC).
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