"Fail Fast" Philosophy

[Spike]

I started to respond to this in the Nets game, but realized we could probably spin it off into its own thread:
(You're welcome, VF!)

Every time we show the slightest sign of being a competent franchise or possibly see playoffs on the horizon Vivek decides to nip that quickly and start over. At least hes true to his philosophy, fail as fast as you can.

You know, I've been wondering about his "fail fast" philosophy, and I think it directly contradicts how to successfully build a franchise. (Also, plenty of data shows that he only seems to support this idea when convenient, but I digress.)

If you think about it, he went with Malone, until he "saw" or was shown, that he wasn't going to be successful, so he pulled the plug early. In this case, probably too early, but he did it anyway. This year was, arguably, the first time a roster was structured around Demarcus's skill set (again, arguments could be made for the quality of the roster, but the idea was there), but because they didn't win, he pulled the plug. Can Vivek pull the youth movement if they don't start out 12-0 next year? Does he look to move youth for more vets? Does Joeger/Vlade get the boot?

I just get the sense that Vivek doesn't understand patience, and, unfortunately, we're all going to suffer through that. What happens if/when we get zero draft picks? What would patience look like to Kings fans?

Ultimately, I see that we've pulled the plug too early on DMC. That's not what my argument is here. Given that, here's what I'm pondering:

1. Can the fans handle a "youth movement?"
2. Can Joeger handle a "youth movement?"
3. Can Vivek handle a "youth movement?"

#1 and #2 seem pretty easy to figure out.
I believe the fans are split between being done with a rebuild, and pushing for a playoff spot. Fair or not, we all have to contend with the fact that it is indeed a rebuild. Whether the existing assets are viable or not is likely a discussion for another time. I guess I'm saying, "like it or not", the fans will have to be patient, because there isn't another option. What that patience looks like will probably differ from person to person, with some already moving on to greener pastures.

I thought #2 would be easy to figure out, but now I'm not so sure. If Joeger is in it for the long haul, I guess he has to be able to handle a youth movement in that we could potentially have 2 lottery picks upcoming, both of which should see significant playing time relative to our current roster. Theoretically, it should result in an increase in talent, but not necessarily NBA-ready skill. I guess we'll find out sooner rather than later if Joeger moves on to a team that's closer to winning over the summer. If Vlade is giving himself two years, (more on that in a minute), then he's probably giving Joeger two years to show that positive growth is happening. I don't see why it wouldn't, unless we...

#3 Vivek
...continue to strike out in the draft. I think this year bought Vlade some time, in terms of being able to draft players with some potential, but in what is arguably going to be a loaded draft, he's going to have to hit a home run with one of his picks. If that happens, and we have a shiny 20-5-5 kind of player, then I think Vivek will let the growth movement continue. If not, I think we'll see another asset bleed disguised by "bringing in vets to reach the salary floor" type move. While this isn't meant to be another thread to bash Vivek, I think he needs to be able to show some sort of patience before expecting it from the fans.

 

[N0tmyfault]

I think if fans saw a vision, they could have patience. As of now, the vision is blurry. If we were trying to tank and keep our draft pick... why did we not trade any of our expiring vets? If we were trying to win now, why did we trade DMC? In my opinion, DC and Tyreke, at the minimum, should have been traded for future assets.

 

[swisshh]

This isn't just a Vivek move. It's something about the franchise over the past ten years, There hasn't been a plan that has lasted more than a season or no more than 3 months at times. They drafted Tyreke and Casspi, start to build a tough defensive squad. Brought in Dalembert when they drafted Cousins. Then Casspi and Dalembert were gone quickly and they wanted to race and outscore people. They want to race and outscore people, but then trade for John Salmons who has lost all his speed at that point. Meanwhile, Jason Thompson has played center, power forward and small forward for the team. He's gone from a part of the offense to a bystander. From starter to bench guy, behind an undeveloped James Johnson who swaps from PF to SF.

The team has never had an actual plan or an architect to build the plan. You're right in that it took them this many years to actualy put out a roster that complimented Cousins in some way. That's testament to the franchise's core problem: Lack of basketball brains.

 

[Kingsfan23]

I think if fans saw a vision, they could have patience. As of now, the vision is blurry. If we were trying to tank and keep our draft pick... why did we not trade any of our expiring vets? If we were trying to win now, why did we trade DMC? In my opinion, DC and Tyreke, at the minimum, should have been traded for future assets.

"Lifeless" Collison is looking so blase' out there that I'm not sure keeping him hurts the tank. The team might be better with Lawson actually initiating offense full time. Plus, may have been a bad managerial look if Vlade traded him for mid-late second rounder, after his reputation took a hit the previous week, if that was all that was available. If more was available, then I agree that Vlade is continuing to fail. I know a first rounder wasn't available as that was the reported asking price

 

[kingsboi]

I started to respond to this in the Nets game, but realized we could probably spin it off into its own thread:
(You're welcome, VF!)




You know, I've been wondering about his "fail fast" philosophy, and I think it directly contradicts how to successfully build a franchise. (Also, plenty of data shows that he only seems to support this idea when convenient, but I digress.)

If you think about it, he went with Malone, until he "saw" or was shown, that he wasn't going to be successful, so he pulled the plug early. In this case, probably too early, but he did it anyway. This year was, arguably, the first time a roster was structured around Demarcus's skill set (again, arguments could be made for the quality of the roster, but the idea was there), but because they didn't win, he pulled the plug. Can Vivek pull the youth movement if they don't start out 12-0 next year? Does he look to move youth for more vets? Does Joeger/Vlade get the boot?

I just get the sense that Vivek doesn't understand patience, and, unfortunately, we're all going to suffer through that. What happens if/when we get zero draft picks? What would patience look like to Kings fans?

Ultimately, I see that we've pulled the plug too early on DMC. That's not what my argument is here. Given that, here's what I'm pondering:

1. Can the fans handle a "youth movement?"
2. Can Joeger handle a "youth movement?"
3. Can Vivek handle a "youth movement?"

#1 and #2 seem pretty easy to figure out. #3, I'm not so sure. I'll expand later, but I have to go to practice.

I see Joerger as the next scapegoat followed by Vlade in two years when his rebuild still isn't complete. It's a shame too, Joerger is the best coach we've had since Adelman IMO but that holds no merit if he isn't producing wins for Vivek. He is one of those coaches who should be here for the forseeable future but even he might want to part ways if he sees the team is rebuilding long term.

Speaking of patience, Vivek might be better off buying a NFL team or holding a share because in that sport you can build a winner much faster than you can in the NBA. It's very difficult and time consuming to build a winner in the NBA and lots and lots of patience, player development & continuity is required in order to achieve that goal IMO. He will soon see what a rebuild looks like and I have no reason to believe that after a year or two of losing, he will want to build a veteran team again.

 

[pshn80]

It is what it is and I always have been here for the long term. How the rest of folks handle the Cuz trade is for them to work out. He's gone and I'm here and a steadfast fan of the Kings. Vivek, Vlade and Joerger are all paid well so I wouldn't worry about them. Rebound, defend, pass the ball, take good shots and make them. Nothing has changed.

 

[kingjatt]

There is zero planning when it comes to this team, If a rebuild or blowup was going to happen it should have happend over the summer, it should have been a full commitment to Cuz or a full on firesale and we would have gotten something for Rudy/Collison and not taken on any future money outside of taking on bad money with picks attached.

This halfway road we took was about the worst path you could imagine going on, we would have sucked with a summer firesale but at least we would have a stack of assets moving forward. Now we have Buddy and maybe NO's pick.

Everything is short-sighted and done on a whim, It would not surprise me one bit if the upcoming fan uproar convinces Vivek to try and win again and he hands Dion Waiters a max contract. Put nothing past that man.

 

[NoBonus]

My hope is that Joerger is given at least three years at the helm. Give him the chance to build a team without DMC. I think the team would be better off for it, basketball culture could improve, the team could establish an identity, and the fans would appreciate it.

If nothing else, let's give Joerger a real chance, not a chance like poor Tyrone Corbin was given, a real chance.

 

[VF21]

My hope is that Joerger is given at least three years at the helm. Give him the chance to build a team without DMC. I think the team would be better off for it, basketball culture could improve, the team could establish an identity, and the fans would appreciate it.

If nothing else, let's give Joerger a real chance, not a chance like poor Tyrone Corbin was given, a real chance.

Giving him a real chance will only work if there's a plan in place to get this team back to something even remotely resembling relevance. The best coach in the world can only do so much if the front office has their heads so firmly embedded in their posteriors that they cannot even sense the presence of daylight.

 

[Larry David]

Vivek has failed fast ... and regularly ... and often.

 

[Sac.1989]

we kinda had it all in terms of where we were headed, there was a thought process and plan in place. What that is now is anyones guess.

 

[fansinceday1]

It is what it is and I always have been here for the long term. How the rest of folks handle the Cuz trade is for them to work out. He's gone and I'm here and a steadfast fan of the Kings. Vivek, Vlade and Joerger are all paid well so I wouldn't worry about them. Rebound, defend, pass the ball, take good shots and make them. Nothing has changed.

Are you reading a different thread? This is about the process, not the trade. This is way beyond the trade.

Lets begin here. Are you confident in this FO being able to do a successful rebuild? How about just being semi competent?

 

[Glenn]

Are you reading a different thread? This is about the process, not the trade. This is way beyond the trade.

Lets begin here. Are you confident in this FO being able to do a successful rebuild? How about just being semi competent?

Based on the reputation of any NBA team in Sacramento, certain things just don't happen (like signing significant free agents) and that is beyond the control of the FO. It very well may be that no one can bring about a significant rebuild.

 

[pshn80]

Are you reading a different thread? This is about the process, not the trade. This is way beyond the trade.

Lets begin here. Are you confident in this FO being able to do a successful rebuild? How about just being semi competent?

Semi-competent? Me, the FO, the team? I am quite confident that Vlade is doing and will do a good job rebuilding.
Will we be big winners? You pays your money and take a chance.

 

[fansinceday1]

Semi-competent? Me, the FO, the team? I am quite confident that Vlade is doing and will do a good job rebuilding.
Will we be big winners? You pays your money and take a chance.

the semi competent was aimed at the front office, not you. I apologize. Now that i look at it its not clear who that semi competent comment is aimed at. Sorry my friend.........

 

[Iced Espresso]

Can't have it both ways really. Lots of people wanted to tank for a bit here the last couple of years, I certainly did when we had some bad contracts here in the past.

But we did the right thing earlier this season and pushed with all we had. It was time.

Now the decision has been made, what frustrates me is we should of traded any veteran we could of for what we could of gotten and threw the towel in completely.

With our own pick still in our hands next year, we should be totally focused on youth development again next season. We should move any salary we can for whatever we can get in the off season like Kosta for example, even Temple.

Take on bad salary for incentive Hinkiesque.

Reform the roster for the 2018-2019 season because we have no pick that year.

Would suck for ticket sales I know, or be frustrating to pay for a product like that, but I think its what we should be doing.

Enough of this band aid make do nonsense, been a half A$$ odd mixture of things here for way too long.

 

[Iced Espresso]

It is what it is and I always have been here for the long term. How the rest of folks handle the Cuz trade is for them to work out. He's gone and I'm here and a steadfast fan of the Kings. Vivek, Vlade and Joerger are all paid well so I wouldn't worry about them. Rebound, defend, pass the ball, take good shots and make them. Nothing has changed.

Joerger has to want a big raise after this contract is over. Not my coin, but I'm not so sure this is working out the way he wanted. But we need to roll with the guy for several years IMO.

 

[VF21]

...Would suck for ticket sales I know, or be frustrating to pay for a product like that, but I think its what we should be doing.

At least the few people who attend those sucky games will get to see our shiny new arena in all its glory.

I won't pay for a product like that...nor will a lot of others. And, unfortunately for the Kings, fans who walk won't be that quick to come back. They may attend a game or two if the team actually starts to win in a few years, but season ticket holders are not going to pay premium prices. And it's a sad fact that once people find something else to do with their entertainment dollars they may never switch back. This is a very slippery slope the Kings have stepped out onto ... again.

 

[NoBonus]

Giving him a real chance will only work if there's a plan in place to get this team back to something even remotely resembling relevance. The best coach in the world can only do so much if the front office has their heads so firmly embedded in their posteriors that they cannot even sense the presence of daylight.

Well said.

 

[Iced Espresso]

At least the few people who attend those sucky games will get to see our shiny new arena in all its glory.

I won't pay for a product like that...nor will a lot of others. And, unfortunately for the Kings, fans who walk won't be that quick to come back. They may attend a game or two if the team actually starts to win in a few years, but season ticket holders are not going to pay premium prices. And it's a sad fact that once people find something else to do with their entertainment dollars they may never switch back. This is a very slippery slope the Kings have stepped out onto ... again.

True. And remember back in the day when seats jumped in price back when Webber resigned?

People happily forked over more loot.

But then when we had a shabby product ticket prices were still high, they even went the extra mile and undercut season ticket holder prices on game day sales occasionally.

But you'd have to adjust ticket prices to counter this, and they won't do that. Lots of season tickets have all ready sold for next season.

So welcome to poor rebuild circumstances.

It will help if we get two picks this year and hit two home runs.

Lord help us if we get hosed with the picks, or pick up some busts.

 

[andjel]

At least the few people who attend those sucky games will get to see our shiny new arena in all its glory.
.

I heard you can tour the arena early in the day free of charge and see all its glory, without the distracting noise from the floor too.

 

[VF21]

I heard you can tour the arena early in the day free of charge and see all its glory, without the distracting noise from the floor too.

I'm thinking there won't be that much distracting noise, to be honest...

 

[andjel]

I'm thinking there won't be that much distracting noise, to be honest...

Ball thumping, guy with the microphone next to the court, some whistles (though not as much as during the bad boys days), maybe some cowbell recording ... you know, that noise.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

My hope is that Joerger is given at least three years at the helm. Give him the chance to build a team without DMC. I think the team would be better off for it, basketball culture could improve, the team could establish an identity, and the fans would appreciate it.

If nothing else, let's give Joerger a real chance, not a chance like poor Tyrone Corbin was given, a real chance.

rug was pulled from under him