Education Points

#61
Downtown Sacramento is just going to get more ritzy in the end, sure it's a shame that it'll force some people out, but part of development is to make everything look desirable to others.

The new arena isn't a staple for the Kings or for a limited amount of people. Of course the Kings and Monarchs will be the main tennants, but on days when they aren't playing in there, the arena can provide host to many extra-curricular events that generate taxes, revenue and business to the downtown area that isn't seen normally.

Essentially, the arena will boost the development of more hotels and create a solid infrastructure as more attention will be placed on downtown. Sacramento as the capital of the state of California can't turn down any opportunity to present itself on the national stage in a progressive manner.
 
#62
1) Right now, they pay property tax.
You sure about that? If so, then what they pay is public knowledge, so what is the amount?

Had they done it the honest way and tried for 2/3, a lot of people who voted against it because of this attempt to break the spirit of the law would have voted for it. You will definitely see the same thing happen here. Kingsfans is a relatively blindered view of the world, and I don't think people here realize how ticked others are at this circumvention.
First off, lose the stereotypical characterizations of the members of this board.

Secondly, those that are pissed over this "tactic" are inherently anti-tax. Those that aren't understand that life is all about compromises and, in politics, trying to satiate the masses to the greatest extent possible to get things done in the community. The addition of "other project" monies is an attempt to give every citizen with varying views about taxes, Maloofs, downtown improvements, etc. something in this deal.

Tactic? Absolutely.

Deception? Absolutely not.

Compromise. And smart decisionmaking too.

By the way, my salesperson analogy is about perfect. Fong used to represent the Maloofs; now he moved to the City side. Total conflict of interest.
WRONG. There is no conflict of interest as long is there is no CURRENT relationship. I have worked for businesses where we worked for one side for a few years, and then ended that relationship and turned around and worked for the other side. Happens all the time in business. ALL the time.
 
#64
Although Sacramento is my birthplace, I view myself as an outsider since I left ten years ago and have no desire to return. Even still, I would hate for the community of Sacramento to blotch this and lose a chance for a win-win situation.

I don't believe that huge sums of taxpayer money should be spent on projects that benefit only a small percentage of the population. (1)

The Maloofs have plenty of money, and I'm sure that the Palms has good corporate credit, if they want an new arena they should finance it themselves and borrow the rest of the money from the bank like any other person or business would have to.(2)

I think it's bullXXXX to borrow public funds to build an arena that will put huge amounts of money in the pockets of people who could just have easily borrowed the money from a bank.(3)
(1) Yes, Kings fans do benifit from this but I don't think it is fair to say only a small percentage of the population will benefit from this. How much and on what others will benefit will depend on how wisely the rest of the money is used.

(2) If they were doing it like the last few cities have done to keep/get teams, they wouldn't be paying anything. In a buying/selling market view (Kings being the sellers/Cities desiring a franchise being the buyers), it is a sellers market. There are Cities willing to buy a franchise to locate in their city. Much like Cities/Municipalities do when they offer various incentives (land/infrastructure improvements/tax breaks, and the like) for businesses to relocate there.

(3) I don't get this part. Borrow public funds? There are no public funds to borrow. These would be new funds, created funds and without the measure passing they simply don't exist. You get no entertainment center and none of the other civic improvements either. Win-win or lose-lose.
 
#65
No. Not that I can't...I'm just tired of this. If you can't get more than adequate answers to your points from the myriad of threads on this topic, then you won't be satisfied with anything I would give you now.
I'm tired of it too and that's why I posted those comments. They're not mine. I am all for a new arena and what it could bring to our city. You just can't discuss this issue with those who have already made their decision because they hate the rich and/or sports.

I like it how a caller on KHTK said he hates paying taxes but has to do it anyway and he doesn't even use half of the things they goes towards such as mass transit, welfare, etc. But, he does understand the need for those projects and services and the downtown arena is another example and he is all for it. I hope I summarized what he said and didn't put in my own feelings because that's how I feel. I mean we're already paying high gas prices and those aren't coming down. It's a way of life. Get used to it. I have (that's to those who will vote no).

Okay I am tired of this. Time to go out and spend some money in the county. Yeah, I'm already ahead of the game and it's not even November. :)
 
#66
I'm tired of it too and that's why I posted those comments. They're not mine. I am all for a new arena and what it could bring to our city. You just can't discuss this issue with those who have already made their decision because they hate the rich and/or sports.
Sorry...misunderstood you. And you're right!

:)
 
#67
Anyone want to tackle these two comments?
Sure. here ya go...

The new arena won't benefit me at all because I can't afford to use it, downtown gridlock (even up to my neighborhood) before and after games, will be an absolute nightmare, more police will have to be hired to deal with the large crowds of people downtown, and my rent will go up.

Furthermore, large numbers of homeless people will be arrested in sweeps to "clean up" downtown, downtown and midtown rents will skyrocket, the already overburdened light rail service will see even more riders and the tremendous increase in downtown and midtown traffic will necessitate more frequency road repairs, thus causing even more girdlock.

I'm paying for this, but how does any of this benefit me?
The new arena benefits you even if you don't use it. It will benefit the local economy with continuing to fuel growth which leads to greater opportunity which leads to a higher standard of living for all. It will promote expansion of downtown, helping both new and existing businesses (including your employer's business). It will stimulate more businesses to locate to SAC, therefore many more jobs (and higher pay...supply:demand economics). It will thus create more opportunities for area residents, ecomomically. Culturally, it will provide more "experiences" for Sacramentans, both the arena events themselves and surrounding cultural developments (that might be cheaper to experience than going to the arena for those that can't afford it). Overall, this vibrant downtown will have a spillover effect on the surrounding communities. That will positively affect property values over the long haul.

As in any growing economy, eventually prices of goods and services will follow wage increases, true. But hey, if you want to live in a stagnant part of the U.S. rather than a growing one, you have that choice. If you move, don't expect your wages to escalate in a flat economic region that is not growing. So if you can handle your standards of living in that situation, by all means, go for it.

Personally, I WANT to live in an area of high growth and am willing to accept the "risk" of higher prices in exchange for greater opportunities, greater wages, and greater entertainment and recreational choices.

You have cited some potential problems with ANY City growth scenario... more police, more road maintenance, more infrastructure to accommodate the growth, etc. It is up to the governments to address these issues to make things as good as they can be for residents.

Obviously, I don't want to go to a Kings game in a downtown arena if it takes me 2 hours to get to a freeway afterwards. Government officials and planners understand this and other critical issues, including some of the ones you mentioned, and they will hire people, plan accordingly, build infrastructure, etc. whatever it takes to so that the growth can be accommodated.

I don't support spending taxpayer money to fund a private business.
It happens all the time with every government, everywhere. There are many services which governments provide in which they are not adept at staffing the service and providing it directly with government employees. Or sometimes the government just doesn't want to hire and get in a certain business.

For example, many consultants (lawyers, engineers, etc) make their entire living on taxpayer dollars. Many governments hire another company to operate their water and wastewater treatment plants.

An even better analogy are those private companies that run the government office cafeterias. They pay nothing for the building, lay out some rent (or perhaps a flat royalty), provide the equipment and employees and food, and get to keep whatever they make, or lose whatever they lose.

So let's get rid of all those cafeteria operators for governments?

Hardly. The governments do NOT want to be in the food business. Local government here does NOT want to be in the arena business. However, they highly covet what the new arena will do overall for the community and local business, and so they cut a deal with someone that knows the arena business.

I don't believe that huge sums of taxpayer money should be spent on projects that benefit only a small percentage of the population.
Well, here's where the education part needs to come in for those that don't see it. From my vantage point, the benefit is far-reaching beyond residents that will enter the arena.

Our elected officials will need to outline for you what they foresee as the beneficial impacts on all residents, even for residents that never set foot in downtown or the arena itself. Be open to LISTENING to what they have to say when the time comes.

The Maloofs have plenty of money, and I'm sure that the Palms has good corporate credit, if they want an new arena they should finance it themselves and borrow the rest of the money from the bank like any other person or business would have to.
Impractical and NOT the precedent set for most major arena projects in recent years. Do you expect the Maloofs to be responsible for much, much more than private stakeholders in the successful arena deals in other major metro areas? Hold on for more education, because I believe that our elected officials really need to outline how the last 4 or 5 major U.S. arena deals have gone down from a financing standpoint.

I think the most overlooked fact in this whole issue is that the Maloofs apparently don't want to own an arena, and this should be a clear indication to everyone that the keeping the Kings in Sacramento is strictly a limited engagement. If they were really serious about keeping the Kings here, they would have no problem owning the arena instead of leasing it. Yes, they signed a 30 year lease, but this means nothing. Even if they moved the Kings, they could still make money from hosting events at the new arena.
I really don't think the Maloofs would have gone through all this mess with the intent to move the team any time soon. What's their motivation to leave after this deal is done?

I'm wondering if there's a clause in the agreement requiring the Maloofs to keep the Kings in Sac for a set period of time. I'd bet everything that I own that there is no such clause.
We'll know soon enough.
 
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VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#68
Bleh. Here's how I see it...I look at it purely from a personal standpoint. You can gripe over and over about the numbers and the particulars of the deal itself. But what does it mean for ME? I pay $0.25 for every $100 I spend (or $25 per $10,000) and I get my favorite team in town for a LONG time to come, a new and vibrant community full of shops, restaurants, and housing. I get millions of dollars going to all sorts of community projects throughout the county. I get all of the concerts and events of any major city in the U.S., and I get to see a community take a big step forward in becoming a city with an identity...not just the capital of California. Worth every penny.
Bravo, D-Mass.
 
#69
Thanks! It's the one thing that irks me about this whole thing. The "anti-" crowd are so fixated on what the Maloofs are getting out of the deal that they're forgetting all of the great things that come out of this for us. Plus, it's not costing the individual very much at all.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#70
DISCLAIMER: I personally would love for the citizens of Sacramento to fund a new arena for the Kings ESPCIALLY in the downtown area as it is MY favorite part of town to visit and I seem to be allergic to the strip malls around ARCO.

Ok folks up until now I have tried to remain silent on the new arena issue since as a Fresno resident my opinion really IS irrelevant since it’s not my dime. But after reading a great many ill informed responses to Arena Skeptic and other who dare to question the benefits of a new arena. IF you are REALLY open minded and want an informed opinion I strongly suggest you consider the following ideas/facts. The reality is that there are good reasons to support a tax increase and build a new stadium and there are good reasons to oppose it. The bad news is that there are also BAD reasons to support the stadium and tax mostly based on misconceptions about the fiscal impact of such projects.

In general a professional sports team is a LUXURY that metropolitan areas afford themselves. It is misleading to believe that the primary reason big league teams are located in big cities is not as much about the larger audience they can draw, but rather about the larger TAX BASE to fund facilities. As a few posters have pointed out the proposed tax burden, since shared among a very large base, is quite low and affordable for most people in Sacramento. That is the fact, but how you interpret that fact will vary according to you perspective.

If you are reading this there are a few things you need to bear in mind. You are a Kings fan. You go to games and or would like to go to games. You want your team to stay in Sacramento. All of this creates your bias, your perspective. The trick to being as objective as possible is being aware of this and trying to look at the data from OTHER perspectives, and seek out data/facts and opinions that are in conflict with your perspective. So when we examine the tax base of Sacramento the sales tax will be paid by every person who buys taxable goods in the city. With a population topping 407,000 about 350,000 are over the age of 15 how many will benefit form Kings/Monarchs games and varies other entertainment at the Arena? It’s easy to assume since WE love the Kings that most of those people will benefit, but actual studies of cities and sports arenas say otherwise. Several good studies indicate that less than 20% of a cities population attend ANY games and generally less than half identify them selves as “Fans.” So in general the “floating a bond” or imposing a sales tax is a way for a minority to benefit while everyone fans and non fans alike foot the bill. This is much like a city where 20% drive; asking all it’s citizens to pay a road tax because it will benefit them all indirectly.

The argument that everyone fan and non fan alike will benefit from a new arena is a popular myth that team owners and contractors have used to convince reluctant publics to ok public funding of arenas that benefit the fan, but primarily act to make billionaire owners even richer. Study after study shows that while areas surrounding a new arena do benefit from increased economic activity these gains are typically off set by costs of traffic control, necessary road improvements, reduced business away from the venue and in areas near the arena that become avoided due to parking and traffic problems during games. (e.g. while restaurants and bars will do a bang up business if you own a clothing or jewelry store in the area customers are likely to go else where during activates at the arena) Finely (although not likely in this case) the area around the OLD facility often suffers a serious blight once it is more or less abandoned. (e.g. L.A. Forum after the opening of Staples Center) Don’t just trust the talking points or the rattling you hear on the radio, read the detailed studies that have been done in cites where new arenas are built. FYI 2 billion is spent by tax payers to build new sports facilities every year and few if any every bring back pennies on the dollar to the city coffers.

The other popular myth is that the New arena will draw people to Sacramento and lead to growth. Again studies on urban and suburban growth have clearly indicated that the most important factors people cite in searching for a place to live are issues of safety, quality of schools and available recreation. Visitors to cities cite their purposes for travel in order as business, family visit, recreation, and theme parks with attendance of sports barely making the list at all. Studies of cities who have built new facilities in the past 10 years show a general pattern of zero influence.

Finlay there is the famous “the owners will have to move the team” claim. This is sometimes true and sometimes a bluff. Either way it is risky business to use this as the basis for committing public funds to build a new arena. First if it’s a bluff you wasted your money if the only purpose was to keep a team. If the owner means business and will actually move a team because they demand a larger facility with more seats and larger profits then you know who you are dealing with, someone who wants to make money and places their financial situation above the communities. So let’s say the tax payers do build a new arena to keep the team. What is there to stop the owners from moving the team a few years down the line when another community offer to build a newer bigger facility and will give an even better lease to the team on it. Don’t think it can happen? Look at Baltimore, Cleveland, Houston and Seattle just to name a few.

Before anyone gets the pitchforks and torches out and start heading to Fresno there ARE good reasons for taxpayers to foot the bill for a new arena. The problem is that they are not easily quantifiable. So what are they? Civic pride, major cities can be proud of their professional sports franchises regardless of cost and profitability issues. Sacramento is the state capitol, and a major US city SHOULD have a team that in a very real and tangible way is one of the things that separates Sacramento from Fresno or Boise Idaho. Are there other reasons for communities to pay the bill for a team? Well for much the same reason that dogs lick their genitals… because they can. In addition to functioning as an adornment of a major city, pro sports also serve as a pleasant luxury that denizens of these cities can afford them selves. Like any luxury in a major city not everyone enjoys it, but everyone pays for it. We all pay for mass transit even if we never use it. We all pay for sidewalks even if we never walk on them. We build schools even if we don’t have kids. If a person want to be “self sufficient” only paying for the things they use, then they really have no business being a city dweller. Go ahead and buy property outside any municipality and you will get what you pay for and only pay for what you get, but living in a city DEMANDS a social contract. You agree to kick in for the city and the city will offer you up a smorgasbord of opportunities.

My point is this. Support the arena for the RIGHT reasons, heck even use the fallacious arguments to persuade the ignorant, but don’t drink the Kool Aid because you WANT it to be true. And when you encounter someone who opposes the arena deal show some respect for their perspective and their arguments.

PS here in Fresno we spent over 100 million dollars to build a state of the art ball park for the Grizzlies. It will NEVER pay for it’s self and virtually all of the promises of a renewed downtown and increased revenues have not come to pass. But I have to say there is an intangible sense of pride knowing that we have the nicest ball park of any AAA team. If you have not come down for one of the games the Cats play down here take the drive and I’ll hook you up with some great food as well. You may laugh about Fresno and it’s tripple A park but it is what separates us from Stocton.








Sources
http://www.lincolninst.edu/pubs/dl/671_chapin-web.pdf

http://www.idea-knowledge.gov.uk/idk/core/page.do?pageId=640761

http://www.heritage.org/Research/UrbanIssues/BG1223.cfm

http://sacramento.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

Field of Schemes by Joanna Cagan and Neil deMause

Major League Losers by Mark S. Rosenthraub
 
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#71
Bleh. Here's how I see it...I look at it purely from a personal standpoint. You can gripe over and over about the numbers and the particulars of the deal itself. But what does it mean for ME? I pay $0.25 for every $100 I spend (or $25 per $10,000) and I get my favorite team in town for a LONG time to come, a new and vibrant community full of shops, restaurants, and housing. I get millions of dollars going to all sorts of community projects throughout the county. I get all of the concerts and events of any major city in the U.S., and I get to see a community take a big step forward in becoming a city with an identity...not just the capital of California. Worth every penny.
I sense a future Mastercard commercial coming out of this. :)

Thanks 1kingzfan for replying with your comments. I pasted them on another message board with those who are against it. The educating continues.
 
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#72
Nice write up Celt :) I also like hearing both sides of the issue and like you have no say in the actual vote since I live in the YC. Unfortunately we probably won't hear much logical debate on either side. Passions for both sports and politics and when you mix them together. Stand back and watch the fun.

Well for much the same reason that dogs lick their genitals
HAHAHA No way I was going to let that go without its own quote! :D
 
#73
but don’t drink the Kool Aid because you WANT it to be true. And when you encounter someone who opposes the arena deal show some respect for their perspective and their arguments.
So how many times do you think we will hear this analogy before November?:rolleyes: It does not really smack of the respect you ask us to give the arena oponents.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#74
I agree, Kupman. The "don't drink the Kool Aid" comment is over the top, IMHO. Come on, Celt. You teach communications. You know how loaded that phrase is.

Other than that, I think you - meaning Celt - brought up some good points. I don't think the purpose of this particular forum (on Kingsfans.com and part of SaveOurKings.com) is to primarily argue whether or not the arena deal should be approved. I think the purpose Jeremy had in mind, as evidenced by the comment directly under the forum title, is to bind people together to help get the proposal passed.

Yes, there's room for discussion of facts and figures, but I think - based on discussions with Jeremy back when SOK was created - that the focus of KF is going to be one of support for the proposal. We want to give everyone the information they need to make an informed decision but we're not going to get bogged down with the minutiae. There are other groups out there who have undoubtedly created their own webpages for that kind of thing.

I hope that makes sense.
 
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#75
Thanx for the post and reference citations, Celt.

I agree that making citizens aware of total project costs and benefits is a good idea.

I only read the Chapin paper (first reference on your list), and I found it to be inherently biased. It begins with the premise that consultant research on the topic is biased and “scholar” research is not. I found that an immediate turn off in that the consultants have all been educated by the scholars. The implication is that consultants, hired to provide expert, independent research and opinions, work toward a pre-determined outcome, yet scholars do not. Having worked both sides of fence personally, I know there is an equal amount of bias in scholarly research as there is in consultant research.

The tone of Chapin’s paper is also one of trumpeting the negatives and minimizing the positives, again showing me a research bias. The author says the economic cost:benefit analysis doesn’t work (according to scholars) but concedes that the non-economic benefits are positive, but adds a caveat that the costs of non-economic benefits are usually not considered.

I liked Chapin’s Table 1 which listed potential cost and benefit areas, including the more intangible ones. I think if you honestly evaluate the items on that list, the particular case of the downtown Sacramento arena would score well in a cost:benefit analysis of most of these items. I believe that most of the things that Chapin says are overlooked in an economic cost:benefit analysis have not been for the new SAC arena (we’ll see what information we receive in coming weeks). The only topic I am unclear about is the loss of property tax, and so I’d like to know what the estimated property tax take for the area is, both with and without the new arena. Overall, the things he cites which are typically overlooked are, in this case, I believe, NOT being overlooked.

I also find his costs of non-economic benefits that are usually overlooked to be way off-base here. Chapin talks about things like: cost of building a poor facility (unknown but unlikely here), higher than anticipated maintenance costs (Maloof problem), political costs (to debate the issue when they could be arguing over something else…gimme a break), community polarization costs (not sure how he wants to quantify that one), and interrupting the development plan of the area (n/a here).

I do recommend that folks here at least look at Chapin’s Table 1, because he does a good job at trying to delineate all costs of a new arena, not just the obvious ones.

Finally, Chapin tries in his paper’s conclusion to sound even-handed (all of a sudden) but still manages to insult new arena proponents : “…boosters tend to claim all of the benefits of sports facilities and recognize few of the costs…” Snobbish academician, if you ask me. Stereotyping the majority of arena supporters into a biased group that will not evaluate all of the facts totally wipes out his credibility with me.

Supporters for a downtown SAC arena are, for the most part, supporting this project for the right reasons. Not many are naïve or “drinking the Kool Aid”. And it’s thanx to places like this where they come to read and educate themselves so that they see both sides, costs and benefits, and make their decisions accordingly to how they view all this and what is best for the community.

It’s insulting to imply that arena supporters are blind sports fans and care about little else. While that label may fit a subset of the group, it’s certainly the very small minority.
 
#76
I'm sorry but it really is insulting to me when someone says that I show bias because I am a Kings fan. I've been a Kings fan since 1985, but a resident of Sacramento all my 45 years. If there is any non-family thing that I am more passionate about than the Kings, it is the desire to have a downtown that makes me proud. I recall as a little boy being taken down there on shopping trips by my family and how different the feel of the city was from the North Sacramento area in which I lived. I watched in wonder how the decrepit streets next to the river turned into Old Sacramento. Later in the early 70's, my then step father was a photographer for the Sacramento Union and I spent hundreds of hours wandering around the streets surrounding the Union building while he was inside developing his work. And now that same piece of land is going to be home to an amazing new set of towers. Which reminds me, they better dig deep on their excavation because that site was a public dump back in the 1800's. The Union building was sinking on that piece of land because of the dump. Any way, while I was in downtown Chicago last week. I spent hours every evening walking around the city and taking in the buildings and the parks and the lakside walkways. It really brought back that feeling I had during those childhood shopping trips. I found myself wanting Sacramento to have that same feel for me again. As a resident of Roseville now, I don't get the chance to vote. Which bothers me a lot. However I do know that I will be paying my fair share as a great many of my major purchases have been made in Sac County and will likely continue. Even before all of this, all my furniture purchases were made in the county, 2 of the last 3 cars I bought were in the county and the $4000 electronic puchase I made not long ago was in the county. I also park in the downtown mall, shop and eat there before walking to the River Cats games. So I feel like my interest in the new arena and railyard development goes way beyond the Kings. Although they play a part. But please give people a bit of credit for being a little bit dimensional.
A parting thought, Kool Aid is often served and consumed by both sides of an argument. There's enough BS and bias on either side and you just have to sift through that and see what you are left with that really matters in the end.
 

HndsmCelt

Hall of Famer
#77
I suppose I should appoligize for the Kool Aid coment, but I probably won't. I WILL point out that it is entirelly possible to support the Arena with out swallowing the propaganda that owners, builders and other interested parties dish out. Heck I SUPPORT the Arena. I simply am urging members of Kingsfans to read PAST the press releases and the info radio personalities will dish out.

As for issues of bias, bias is INESCAPEABLE we all have them and the most dangerous biases are the ones people are unaware of. As I hope I clearly pointed out the important thing is to KNOW your bias and take that into consideration in evaluating any issue. This never creates objectivity, no matter what my exgirlfirnd the reporter will tell you, but it will help us to be MORE objective. This effort to minimize and if possible remove bias from our research is the corner stone of most academic research and what seperates the good work from the bad.

Yes the folks that knee jerk oppose sports facillities have a bias, drink their own brand of Kool Aid and in general are no more unbiased in thier views. I did not adress them beceause they will never read my post. I mean if you WANT me to look at their rhetoric and critically evaluate why much of it ammounts to pointless desires and empty claims I can do that, Im just not sure it serves any purpose on THIS forum. In addition DESPITE their rhetorical defeciencies groups opposed to Arena's are NOT simply people who just hate sports and millionaires. Sure there is some of that, but they frequentlly have other serious concerns as well.

I think I did a more than adequate job discussing why citizens should support the Arena, why I support the Arena and would vote for it just as I voted for the 100 million here in Fresno for Grizlie's Stadium. Heck I won't even pretned to be anyones moral compass, and if those interested in getting the tax passed want to dispense some of these, way to commonly told, myths about increased growth and increased revenues go right ahead, it WORKS. I just hate to see my friends buying into them or useing them to try to persuade eachother. Worse yet I would hate for you folks, like many of my friends in Fresno, suddenly upset that these promises did not bear fruit and resentfull of the tax burden we are left with.

Bottom line: I knew posting my considered opinion would incure some wrath, hence my retticence to do so, but after reading post after post refering to rational that did not hold up and seeing what I felt were some unwarrented complaints about the people that oppose the Arena I felt it worh while to share what I of course belive is a informed opinion on not so much the topic of Sprots Arena's but in HOW we talk aobut them in the planning/decision making phase.
 
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#79
I suppose I should appoligize for the Kool Aid coment, but I probably won't.
Thank goodness we have one, and only one, self-professed person here, make that Fresno, that can actually see both sides of this issue amongst all these blinded Kings fans on this board that can only see one thing and believe every ounce of propaganda that is fed to them.

...after reading post after post refering to rational that did not hold up...
I only read one of your "scholar" references, and as I posted, it was laced with obvious bias. The rationale is not called into question by one pompous academician that poo-poos every consultant report ever done on the projected impacts of a major arena.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#80
Thank goodness we have one, and only one, self-professed person here, make that Fresno, that can actually see both sides of this issue amongst all these blinded Kings fans on this board that can only see one thing and believe every ounce of propaganda that is fed to them.



I only read one of your "scholar" references, and as I posted, it was laced with obvious bias. The rationale is not called into question by one pompous academician that poo-poos every consultant report ever done on the projected impacts of a major arena.
Oh, good grief.

We do not need the sarcasm, we do not need the hostility between fellow Kings fans. If someone posts a dissenting opinion with respect, which Celt did, I think we can refrain from ridiculing them in return. THAT is exactly what we do not want this forum to turn into. At this point, I strongly suggest we get back to the topic at hand and stop sniping at each other.

Some of us have been very afraid of this happening and, if necessary, this will become a very closely moderated forum. We have had trouble with political discussions every single time we've tried to allow them here at Kingsfans.com and this subject is simply too important to be sidetracked by this type of thing.

There are, in fact, two sides to the whole arena issue BUT the intent of our board owner, as evidenced by the description of the New Arena forum AND by the creation of SaveOurKings.com, is to promote and support the idea of keeping the Kings in Sacramento AND providing a state-of-the-art arena for the Sacramento region. And if you look up in the right hand corner, you'll see further evidence - the banner ad that says "Fans Uniting for a New Sacramento Arena."

I think it's important to keep that in mind. We're supporting the new arena proposal, with its warts, wrinkles, etc. because it's the goal we've been working for. A proposal on the ballot for voters to finally have a say in.

Is it a perfect proposal? Well, no. Nothing involving a mix of public and private funding could ever be perfect. Is it about the best possible deal we could have hoped for? Probably.

If you're in the desert and dying of thirst and a man offers you water, are you going to complain because it isn't Perrier?

Please, everyone. Feel free to discuss the pros and cons of the proposal as we learn more about it but do try and keep your comments respectful to one another.
 
#81
I am sorry that it hasn't worked out in Fresno as anticipated. But from what I've seen that is the exception rather than the rule.

I've seen with my own eyes what it has done for San Diego and San Francisco. Indy has had success with Conseco as well. However our own Raley Field has had trouble with new development surounding it. So maybe Triple AAA isn't quite the draw needed. It's a not as easy to peg this down because I see some added draw to the other side of the river before games. They have free busses that run from the downtown side over to Raley. So perhaps that undercuts the need to build around the field.

With the railyard plans it seems like a lot of mutual development is already in the works. This arena deal is a major kickstart to that development since it will underwrite a lot of infrastructure. There's a lot of variables as to why some of it works and some don't. I think a major factor is location. For example the Spurs chose not to build downtown and instead went over by their fairgrounds. While this made economic sense in obtaining cheaper land, the surrounding are has not developed at all. It's location is more like Arco in Natomas than the railyard site. Nothing's a solid bet, but I have a strong feeling that the railyard location will compliment development of that area and expedite it's timeline.
 
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#82
My bad, VF21, my apologies to the board.

I think what we also need to do here is avoid stereotypical characterizations of BOTH sides.

Arena supporters as a whole are neither blind to the facts nor have a warped view of what is important in the community.

Arena opponents as a whole are neither solely anti-tax nor oppose all citizen contributions to public projects.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#83
Thanks, 1kingzfan. And you are, of course, correct. Stereotypes on both sides are ill-advised and non-productive.

Now, let's just get this puppy built. I want to spend my birthday in 2010 shopping in the NEW Kings store!

(Blatant hint to Kingsgurl^^)

 
#84
I am sorry that it hasn't worked out in Fresno as anticipated. But from what I've seen that is the exception rather than the rule.

I've seen with my own eyes what it has done for San Diego and San Francisco. Indy has had success with Conseco as well.
I saw it in LA too...absolutely NO DOUBT that it improved the downtown area by leaps and bounds. Also, I wouldn't say that the closing of the Forum in Inglewood made that a bad neighborhood...in all honesty, it was never that good to begin with.
 
#85
Anyone want to tackle these two comments? -

All projects funded and undertaken by a local muncipality are by definition, "community projects". Building the new arena is techinically a "community project". A community project is any local project that taxpayer money is spent on, because supposedly all taxpayer money is supposed to benefit the community equally. Of course, we all know this is bull****. The new arena won't benefit me at all because I can't afford to use it, downtown gridlock (even up to my neighborhood) before and after games, will be an absolute nightmare, more police will have to be hired to deal with the large crowds of people downtown, and my rent will go up.

Furthermore, large numbers of homeless people will be arrested in sweeps to "clean up" downtown, downtown and midtown rents will skyrocket, the already overburdened light rail service will see even more riders and the tremendous increase in downtown and midtown traffic will necessitate more frequency road repairs, thus causing even more girdlock.

I'm paying for this, but how does any of this benefit me?
I'll tackle this one.

* My house hasn't burned down, so why should I pay for the fire department when all they do is put out other people's fires and save lives?
* I haven't had to call the police since I've lived in Sacramento, so why should I pay when all they do is protect the public?
* I don't have any kids, so why should I pay for schools when all they do is educate the community?
* I don't use the bus, so why should I pay for it when all it does is reduce traffic and pollution by keeping less vehicles on the road?

It's called the common good. I'm not arguing the arena has the benefits of the other things I listed. I'm just saying the "Why should I pay for it" argument is nonsense.
 
#86
Why is there going to be gridlock? You're talking 18,000 people showing up after a rush hour when over 100,000 people have left downtown. What you'll get on a week night is much smaller than the morning and evening commute. The River Cats also shuttle fans from public parking areas near the downtown mall. The idea is that it won't be concentrated all in one area. It should be spread out. I'll bet it will actually take less time to get home than it does at Arco today.
It also might be a good time to consider the 7:30 games again. It will give a chance for folks to have dinner before the game. Another thing to consider is that a good chunk of the Kings home games are on Sunday nights.

As far as why pay if I don't use it? I won't repeat what others have said, but everyone pays for light rail through their taxes and I'll bet a small fraction of the county has ever even rode the thing. What about the Community Center or the downtown public library? Maybe you haven't visited all of the parks around town?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#87
Clarification: The questions Mike0476 asked weren't HIS questions. They were questions/comments that had been posed to him, and he was trying to find some good answers.

Jsut wanted to make sure people realized that it's not Mike0476 who doesn't like the arena proposal.

:)
 
#88
I work downtown and traffic is not bad, its always moving at least. Not sure you can say that about hwy50/I80. There will be spots of traffic jams, most likely when games get out (ERR that will be about the time I am heading to work these days) YIKES! :eek:


Anyway - Property Taxes for One Sports Parkway

Secured Annual $873,637.30

Does not say who pays them. Sac County does not publish private info on it's site. I only posted cause I think someone asked about it above but forgot who.
 
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#89
Thanx, Christine. I actually agree with you that the naysayers have been virtually BURIED by how this thing has come down, according to the early reports.

No resident bears much out of pocket expense.

Maloofs take on more responsibility for construction costs than anticipated or what recent stadia deals have involved.

Tons of other projects to improve way of life and infrastructure throughout the County.

Kings stay put and in a a SOTA facility.

Downtown development goes bonkers.

EVERY County community wins.

EVERY County resident wins.
I agree with everything you have listed except I am a little confused about your point of the Maloofs taking on more responsibility for construction costs.
After reading this mornings Bee (Sunday) it appears that the Maloofs do not pay anything for the construction costs. Only 20 million up front for maintenence fees. The so-called 26-30% that they are touting as paying for is actually the total cost over the life of the 30 year loan that they would be paying in rent to the city. There appears to be no out of pocket monies by the Maloofs (other than the 20 million maintenence fees) applied to construction costs. Construction will be 100% paid for by the 1/4 of a cent sales tax.
Now don't get me wrong. I am totally in favor of the Arena and I will vote in favor of it, but I am a little miffed about their clever wording that implies that they are paying 26-30% of the costs of the arena. This doesn't appear to be the case. At least not as far as construction is concerned.
Am I confused? Please feel free to eduacte me because if I am unsure, how can I convert those anti-arena voters over from the dark side.
 
#90
I agree with everything you have listed except I am a little confused about your point of the Maloofs taking on more responsibility for construction costs.
After reading this mornings Bee (Sunday) it appears that the Maloofs do not pay anything for the construction costs. Only 20 million up front for maintenence fees. The so-called 26-30% that they are touting as paying for is actually the total cost over the life of the 30 year loan that they would be paying in rent to the city. There appears to be no out of pocket monies by the Maloofs (other than the 20 million maintenence fees) applied to construction costs. Construction will be 100% paid for by the 1/4 of a cent sales tax.
Now don't get me wrong. I am totally in favor of the Arena and I will vote in favor of it, but I am a little miffed about their clever wording that implies that they are paying 26-30% of the costs of the arena. This doesn't appear to be the case. At least not as far as construction is concerned.
Am I confused? Please feel free to eduacte me because if I am unsure, how can I convert those anti-arena voters over from the dark side.
Let me correct myself here in advance. There is no loan. It is a 30 year agrrement for the Maloofs to keep the Kings here and to pay rent to the city for the arena. My bad.