Dave Joergers offense, roster awareness and pace.
- Thread starter Kingsfan2002
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Dave Joerger has said a lot of things and that's why people aren't so trusting at this point. I guess we have to hope that the summer league assistants didn't get the memo on the faster pace either. They started to run more pick and roll in the last game, but then as time went on they got farther and farther away from it. Pick and roll basketball along with drive and dish is the best way to get catch and shoot opportunities which is the way the Kings will pick up their pace. Pace doesn't mean fast breaking or even getting up and down every time to the elite teams, it means creating the shot you want to take as early in the clock as you can. The half court offense is the issue. They continue to take some of the lowest yield shots in the league when by the stats they were elite in the areas that are the highest yield.
I'm willing to give Joerger a break until he has an actual roster to work with and do the things he wants. He has said a lot of things, but he also said that he had to teach the players the offense first before he could start opening things up and that would take a season. We are supposed to take the training wheels off this season. Vlade has added some high energy speed guys to the roster. So we'll see.
Hard to run a successful pick and roll when your point guard is inept. Things were looking good with Fox out there but Frank Mason has all the pnr skill of roadkill...and that's probably not fair to the deceased wildlife.
I am continually amazed at how harsh some of you are IN SUMMER LEAGUE. Summer league isn't about winning; it's about assessing players and deciding who will stay and who will go. Training camp is to start to get the guys who made it to learn things they're going to be expected to do on a regular basis. Pre-season hones those skills.
I am continually amazed at how harsh some of you are IN SUMMER LEAGUE. Summer league isn't about winning; it's about assessing players and deciding who will stay and who will go. Training camp is to start to get the guys who made it to learn things they're going to be expected to do on a regular basis. Pre-season hones those skills.
These are the things he wants.
I can't emphasize enough how much this offense is the complete antithesis of everything these guys are. Fox (slow pace), Skal (high post action), WCS (high post action), Buddy (lack of emphasis on 3pt shooting), Bogdan (lack of emphasis on playmaking), it fits no one except Zbo. He's going to "teach" them an ill-fit offense that does nothing but hinder them and then take the training wheels off by revamping it into the something that's the direct opposite of what he's been "teaching" them?
Occam's Razor. Five years as an NBA head coach, and all five times his teams have been bottom 10 in pace, and have always ran the same style of offense. I think this is just what it is.
He's talked about wanting a more modernized offense long before the current iteration of our rebuild, but it's never materialized.
I can't emphasize enough how much this offense is the complete antithesis of everything these guys are. Fox (slow pace), Skal (high post action), WCS (high post action), Buddy (lack of emphasis on 3pt shooting), Bogdan (lack of emphasis on playmaking), it fits no one except Zbo. He's going to "teach" them an ill-fit offense that does nothing but hinder them and then take the training wheels off by revamping it into the something that's the direct opposite of what he's been "teaching" them?
Occam's Razor. Five years as an NBA head coach, and all five times his teams have been bottom 10 in pace, and have always ran the same style of offense. I think this is just what it is.
He's talked about wanting a more modernized offense long before the current iteration of our rebuild, but it's never materialized.
I just do not see how we put our bigs in a position to succeed when about the only time they receive the ball from the point guard is around the 3 point line or worse. It looked like ZBO ball but at least ZBO could hit a outside shot sometimes.
Why can’t our players with NBA experience just get them the ball down low where at this point in their careers it would help them.
Why can’t our players with NBA experience just get them the ball down low where at this point in their careers it would help them.
I'm actually surprised he doesn't have an NBA HC job right now. He did great in Cleveland before Lebron railroaded him out.
As far as the topic at hand, it'll be interesting to see if Joerger puts his money where his mouth is next season as far as pace goes. I'm still more interested in the team learning to defend.... which will lead to fast breaks.
Damn, TDOS is long.
As far as the topic at hand, it'll be interesting to see if Joerger puts his money where his mouth is next season as far as pace goes. I'm still more interested in the team learning to defend.... which will lead to fast breaks.
Damn, TDOS is long.
The main thing with Joeger isnt about wether we run more in transition. You run in trasition when you can but most of the time you have to play half court offense. Its about his half court offensive system that is absolutely horrible and majority of the Nba have developed past that type of offense.
We dont space the floor, we dont run nearly enough pick n rolls with spaced floor and we dont generate nearly enough three point shots. We dont utilize our best players in the way they would be effective: Buddy Hield - the centerpiece of Boogie trade - not playing enough and not getting enough (3 point) shots, Fox forced to play with two non shooting bigs with the lane clogged and just dumping the ball down to the post, Willy not being utilized as a rim runner/switch defender ect.
The way we ran the offense last year is unacceptable. Jorger deserves credit for having the kids play hard but after two years, thats just not enough.
We drafted Fox #5, a player that is effective playing fast pace and driving to the rim. We need to put him in pick n rolls with the floor spaced so he can use his elite quickness. His quickness loses value if the paint is clogged by two non shooting bigs in the post.
We drafted Bagley #2, a guy that is very good athlete and has the ability to be elite finisher around the rim, not a 1-1 post dominator. We need to have him setting screens in pick n rolls, getting the ball on the move with leverage against his defender or attacking the switches on those screens. We cant have him posting up high post with Kosta clogging the lane. That will turn him into inefficent guy since he is forced to take either contested mid rangers or heavily contested layups.
We got Buddy Hield as a centerpiece on the Cuz trade. He is a +40 3pfg% elite shooter that doesnt neccesarily have the athletisism to drive past his defenders 1-1. We need to put him in a lot of off screen actions feeding him those 3point attempts, using him as a decoy on lot of stuff, just finding different ways to get him the ball where he can shoot it or force the defense to collapse closing in on him.
Imo if Joegers half court system doesnt completely change, he needs to be gone. If this is the young core, they should start learning how to really play efficently on offense. Good coach and good system improves ant team a lot so there is no reason Kings should give any advantage in that area. Hopefully Joeger has spent this whole offseason to remaking his playbook, otherwise I'd expect the fans demanding his removal pretty soon, and rightfully so.
We dont space the floor, we dont run nearly enough pick n rolls with spaced floor and we dont generate nearly enough three point shots. We dont utilize our best players in the way they would be effective: Buddy Hield - the centerpiece of Boogie trade - not playing enough and not getting enough (3 point) shots, Fox forced to play with two non shooting bigs with the lane clogged and just dumping the ball down to the post, Willy not being utilized as a rim runner/switch defender ect.
The way we ran the offense last year is unacceptable. Jorger deserves credit for having the kids play hard but after two years, thats just not enough.
We drafted Fox #5, a player that is effective playing fast pace and driving to the rim. We need to put him in pick n rolls with the floor spaced so he can use his elite quickness. His quickness loses value if the paint is clogged by two non shooting bigs in the post.
We drafted Bagley #2, a guy that is very good athlete and has the ability to be elite finisher around the rim, not a 1-1 post dominator. We need to have him setting screens in pick n rolls, getting the ball on the move with leverage against his defender or attacking the switches on those screens. We cant have him posting up high post with Kosta clogging the lane. That will turn him into inefficent guy since he is forced to take either contested mid rangers or heavily contested layups.
We got Buddy Hield as a centerpiece on the Cuz trade. He is a +40 3pfg% elite shooter that doesnt neccesarily have the athletisism to drive past his defenders 1-1. We need to put him in a lot of off screen actions feeding him those 3point attempts, using him as a decoy on lot of stuff, just finding different ways to get him the ball where he can shoot it or force the defense to collapse closing in on him.
Imo if Joegers half court system doesnt completely change, he needs to be gone. If this is the young core, they should start learning how to really play efficently on offense. Good coach and good system improves ant team a lot so there is no reason Kings should give any advantage in that area. Hopefully Joeger has spent this whole offseason to remaking his playbook, otherwise I'd expect the fans demanding his removal pretty soon, and rightfully so.
I have to disagree with the majority here. I think Joerger had to do what he did given the structure of what he was given. Let me explain.
Take a look at our potential starting 5:
Fox
Bogdanovic
Jackson
Bagley
Giles
All kids. By the most extreme understanding relative to NBA years. You can't just tell them to run. Given that they are mostly one-and-done types, you're looking at kids who have had ZERO structure up to this point. It doesn't matter if they're blue chip athletes, their college systems really just, for the most part, allowed them to just out-talent the opposition. It's no surprise that Bogs looked the best last year. He's had coaching and structure. Ditto Hield. Telling WCS and Skal to just run is a recipe for long term disaster. It's like the Natt years all over again.
So what do you do? You try to implement pieces that will bring success in the future. Kids will look faster in the half court if they know where they're running to. They'll set up faster if they know where teammates will be. I think everyone knows how to run a fast break with primary and secondary options. Once that falls apart, and it will, you're going to have to be able to run elements of a halfcourt offense. Joerger gave them that last year.
Running fast in the wrong direction helps no one. Lets see how it looks this year.
Take a look at our potential starting 5:
Fox
Bogdanovic
Jackson
Bagley
Giles
All kids. By the most extreme understanding relative to NBA years. You can't just tell them to run. Given that they are mostly one-and-done types, you're looking at kids who have had ZERO structure up to this point. It doesn't matter if they're blue chip athletes, their college systems really just, for the most part, allowed them to just out-talent the opposition. It's no surprise that Bogs looked the best last year. He's had coaching and structure. Ditto Hield. Telling WCS and Skal to just run is a recipe for long term disaster. It's like the Natt years all over again.
So what do you do? You try to implement pieces that will bring success in the future. Kids will look faster in the half court if they know where they're running to. They'll set up faster if they know where teammates will be. I think everyone knows how to run a fast break with primary and secondary options. Once that falls apart, and it will, you're going to have to be able to run elements of a halfcourt offense. Joerger gave them that last year.
Running fast in the wrong direction helps no one. Lets see how it looks this year.
Agreed. The Kings ran just fine for the most part last year (the rare times they got the chance). There problem was that it took them too long to set up their half court offense much of the time (hence the slow pace). This isn't hard to fathom when you consider the amount of youth on the team. Hopefully, a year of experience will go a long way in helping in that area.
The slow half court offense is slow because of Joerger, not the players. Here are where the Kings have placed as far as pace goes for the last 5 years.
Malone - 14th
Malone/Cobin/Karl - 8th
Karl - 1st
Joerger - 23rd
Joerger - Last
I thought the offense was slow under Malone but I had no idea how slow it could really get once Joerger got here. He was also in the bottom 3 in pace every year with Memphis during his coaching tenure there.
The Lakers showed a lot more promise than the Kings did and also had a roster full of young guys and they finished 2nd in pace. I don't think their young guys are any smarter than ours. The difference is that they don't have to pass the ball to their center at the high post every other play and then run around pointlessly until the center hands the ball back off to a guard with single digits left on the shot clock. Joerger takes the ball out of the hands of the guys that can pass the ball and he puts it in the hands of the guys who can't on a regular basis. It makes zero sense. It's such a misuse of the talent on the roster and he hasn't deviated from it yet in his coaching career. I wouldn't expect this to be the year where he all the sudden changes. He's probably going to need to be fired at some point so the Kings players can get the handcuffs taken off of them on offense.
Malone - 14th
Malone/Cobin/Karl - 8th
Karl - 1st
Joerger - 23rd
Joerger - Last
I thought the offense was slow under Malone but I had no idea how slow it could really get once Joerger got here. He was also in the bottom 3 in pace every year with Memphis during his coaching tenure there.
The Lakers showed a lot more promise than the Kings did and also had a roster full of young guys and they finished 2nd in pace. I don't think their young guys are any smarter than ours. The difference is that they don't have to pass the ball to their center at the high post every other play and then run around pointlessly until the center hands the ball back off to a guard with single digits left on the shot clock. Joerger takes the ball out of the hands of the guys that can pass the ball and he puts it in the hands of the guys who can't on a regular basis. It makes zero sense. It's such a misuse of the talent on the roster and he hasn't deviated from it yet in his coaching career. I wouldn't expect this to be the year where he all the sudden changes. He's probably going to need to be fired at some point so the Kings players can get the handcuffs taken off of them on offense.
I'm not saying that the offense was slow because of the players, I'm saying because of the players, the offense was slow. Given that the team couldn't defend a well-reasoned argument, I don't mind the slow pace. There are plenty of small detail-oriented items that needed to be (and still need to be) addressed with this team.
The Lakers finished second in pace, sure, but I'd be willing to wager that in terms of long-term growth and development, that was probably more detrimental. Now that Lebron is there, the point is moot, since the kids will probably be shipped off anyway.
For craps and giggles, here were the top 5 teams in terms of pace:
Pelicans 100.5
Lakers 100.3
Suns 100.3
Sixers 99.8
Warriors 99.6
Here were the bottom five:
(Honorable mention: Jazz with 95.7)
Heat 95.6
Mavs 95.6
Spurs 95.0
Grizzlies 94.9
Kings 94.9
I wouldn't say that putting up more shots is indicative of a better team. I get that people want to "go faster" because it looks cool on TV, but it isn't the be-all and end-all metric that determines success. That said, sure, the team could move faster, and I was actually a fan of how things looked under Malone because there was an overall sense of balance.
Stats from https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html
The Lakers finished second in pace, sure, but I'd be willing to wager that in terms of long-term growth and development, that was probably more detrimental. Now that Lebron is there, the point is moot, since the kids will probably be shipped off anyway.
For craps and giggles, here were the top 5 teams in terms of pace:
Pelicans 100.5
Lakers 100.3
Suns 100.3
Sixers 99.8
Warriors 99.6
Here were the bottom five:
(Honorable mention: Jazz with 95.7)
Heat 95.6
Mavs 95.6
Spurs 95.0
Grizzlies 94.9
Kings 94.9
I wouldn't say that putting up more shots is indicative of a better team. I get that people want to "go faster" because it looks cool on TV, but it isn't the be-all and end-all metric that determines success. That said, sure, the team could move faster, and I was actually a fan of how things looked under Malone because there was an overall sense of balance.
Stats from https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2018.html
I just didn't see anything about the pace that helped any of our players. It seemed to work against the majority of them. I don't have an opinion on whether playing fast or slow is better. The only thing I want is for the players to be coached to the best of their abilities. If we have grit and grind type players, then by all means grit and grind. If we have young athletic players, then play fast. It's the coaches job to get the most out of their abilities and any NBA coach should be good enough to be able to tweak his system to fit the players that are currently on the roster.
I don't think there is any evidence at all that says that the Lakers system will be detrimental to the development of their players. Ingram improved a ton from his bad rookie year. Lonzo Ball's advanced stats has him as their 2nd best player despite being an awful shooter. Kuzma showed a ton of offensive prowess. Randle finally broke out and became Randle. Josh Hart had a very promising rookie showing. Their young core has shown more than ours and they've done it quicker. No body will make me believe that holding these guys back and making Randle look for cutters from the high post is better for their future development than letting them go out there and play to their strengths. It's just an excuse people use to justify Joerger's horrible coaching style because people don't want to admit that the Kings most likely hired the wrong guy again. I wish it wasn't the case but it's looking like that's what it is.
Joerger has a system and he plugs whoever is on his roster into that system despite whether they are built for it or not. I can guarantee with almost near certainty that the Kings are going to run a lot of high post action and we're going to see a ton of mid range shots from Giles/Bagley/WCS and we're going to see a lot of midrange and long 2's from our guards because that's what Joerger's system produces and defenses will give the Kings that all day long because it's losing basketball 101.
I don't think there is any evidence at all that says that the Lakers system will be detrimental to the development of their players. Ingram improved a ton from his bad rookie year. Lonzo Ball's advanced stats has him as their 2nd best player despite being an awful shooter. Kuzma showed a ton of offensive prowess. Randle finally broke out and became Randle. Josh Hart had a very promising rookie showing. Their young core has shown more than ours and they've done it quicker. No body will make me believe that holding these guys back and making Randle look for cutters from the high post is better for their future development than letting them go out there and play to their strengths. It's just an excuse people use to justify Joerger's horrible coaching style because people don't want to admit that the Kings most likely hired the wrong guy again. I wish it wasn't the case but it's looking like that's what it is.
Joerger has a system and he plugs whoever is on his roster into that system despite whether they are built for it or not. I can guarantee with almost near certainty that the Kings are going to run a lot of high post action and we're going to see a ton of mid range shots from Giles/Bagley/WCS and we're going to see a lot of midrange and long 2's from our guards because that's what Joerger's system produces and defenses will give the Kings that all day long because it's losing basketball 101.
I just don't think running fast breaks is that complicated. It starts with the commitment to do it, then starts with every defensive rebounder being in the habit of immediately throwing the ball up court, or dribbling up court if need be, and then goes from there. If you have forwards like Bagley, JJ, and Giles you absolutely have to trust in them and throw them the ball up court instead of monopolizing the ball. Those guys need to get comfortable with the ball in the open court and the only way you get comfortable is by repetition. That doesn't mean every big is going to be like LBJ; far from it. Take WCS as an example. In my opinion, I don't want him in the open floor making passes off the dribble. But he can fly up the court and catch it and come to a standstill and throw to the next open man (he's a good passer in the stationary position); he's also a good enough ball handler to take a pass, dribble a couple of times, and slam dunk. JJ and Bagley, on the other hand, can do much more than that in terms of ball handling. I think they both have the ability to make passes on the move in the open court, which could make for a very dynamic running game and team, but like everything else, it needs to be practiced!
They ran a bunch at the end of the season and won quite a few games. I just dont think theres any excuses left. Joerger needs to at least try running and if it seriously doesnt work then we can at least say yeah the players just cant do it. But in my opinion I think Joerger just doesnt feel.comfortable.with running cause he doesnt know how to coach a running team. We'll see this season though.
He doesn't even have to make it a running team. Be average or even below average in pace and it's fine as long as we have better half court sets. That's honestly worse IMO. By not running he is not capitalizing on his player's strengths, by using the offensive sets he is he's deliberately playing to their weaknesses and hindering them.
I don't believe it's about long term development by forcing them to work on their weaknesses. Joerger is all about trying to win the game he is currently coaching; it's why he leans on vets and is staunchly anti-tank. Taking the developmental approach and have them work on their weaknesses with all the actual roadbumps that implies in an actual NBA game doesn't hold up with the way he coaches, and even if he did I think it's the wrong way since it's not really working on their weaknesses, but more revamping them completely as players by not allowing them to use their strengths at all.
I think it's about using the system he's always used. End of story.
I don't believe it's about long term development by forcing them to work on their weaknesses. Joerger is all about trying to win the game he is currently coaching; it's why he leans on vets and is staunchly anti-tank. Taking the developmental approach and have them work on their weaknesses with all the actual roadbumps that implies in an actual NBA game doesn't hold up with the way he coaches, and even if he did I think it's the wrong way since it's not really working on their weaknesses, but more revamping them completely as players by not allowing them to use their strengths at all.
I think it's about using the system he's always used. End of story.
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Spot On, IMHO. And further, who were the key pieces he had to rely on as the youngsters assimilate the structure? A big lumbering star in DMC, older slower vets, and a big and lumbering older slower vet in ZBO. I don't know Coach's mindset and there's good guesses to be made either way, but I don't see how turning on the jets for most of the last few years would've been very realistic.
The offense is slow because he's running a half court offensive system designed to produce shots later in the clock because you have to wait for a set to play out or for a post player to make their move. More pick and roll for a team that I feel will benefit greatly has always been the answer. Him running more motion sets is a good thing for them to develop those instincts but at a certain point you have to choose something as your foundation and I think they are barking up the wrong tree at the moment. If the offense is as backwards this year I do think changes are around the corner.
Yep. You don't draft Fox and run a grit and grind offense. You set a screen, get him some daylight and let him use his speed to get to the basket and wreak havoc on the defense. He's nearly useless in Joerger's current system because I rarely ever saw that last year. The "screens" set for Fox were designed to have him kick the ball back to ZBo for a long 2 or 3. They weren't designed to get Fox to the basket because it hardly ever happened in the half court.
Yeah. Personally, while I'm not wowed by Joerger and think we could do better, I also have a major case of "coaching carousel" exhaustion, and we could always bumble into a worse H.C.
On the one hand, we have a really young roster and Joerger himself has said that the past couple seasons were for teaching. On the other hand, he does seem to be a dinosaur with his offensive schemes, which don't seem to play into strengths of our young core. So is it worth it to coach the kids up on how the game was played in the early 2000s? Debatable.
It'll be interesting to see how next season goes. I'm really more concerned about the defense. Once that comes along, we should start seeing more fast breaks and easy baskets off of stops and forced turn overs. Team defense usually takes awhile to get down. We should see a jump next season, the kids have a lot of grit and grind in em, but the execution is still lacking.
On the one hand, we have a really young roster and Joerger himself has said that the past couple seasons were for teaching. On the other hand, he does seem to be a dinosaur with his offensive schemes, which don't seem to play into strengths of our young core. So is it worth it to coach the kids up on how the game was played in the early 2000s? Debatable.
It'll be interesting to see how next season goes. I'm really more concerned about the defense. Once that comes along, we should start seeing more fast breaks and easy baskets off of stops and forced turn overs. Team defense usually takes awhile to get down. We should see a jump next season, the kids have a lot of grit and grind in em, but the execution is still lacking.
We've been on a coaching carousel for so long that even an average coach seems to be a godsend to people. Very few coaches actually adapt to their team's personnel; coaches better than Joerger have spent decades with one style and have been in bad situations and coached poorly because of it. D'Antoni comes to mind. Karl as well. Right now, Joerger has had enough of a body of work and success to be stuck in his ways and its doubtful he's going to adjust. This actually happens more often than not. You could probably count on one hand the coaches who could adapt to a new system after moving teams.
I think NBA teams might start taking into account coaching when rebuilding. We've had a few examples of proven coaches flaming out in the past couple of years alone. Vogel was a complete failure in Orlando (though they hired Clifford! Lol!). Thibodeau was made God-Emperor in Minnesota, tanked their future, and is going to lose Jimmy Butler. Both of them are regarded as significantly better than Joerger, and what all three of them have in common is they took over rebuilding teams and aren't going to adjust their system that brought them success on their old team. Meanwhile, Utah and Boston hired unproven coaches to take their teams to the next level.
Rebuilding teams take into account going for the draft picks/prospects versus the proven star; why should it be any different for coaches? In this case, the unproven college or assistant coach is one who may flame out or can grow with a team while molding himself, ie the Stevens/Synders, and getting the Joergers/Thibodeaus/Vogels for a rebuilding team is the equivalent of acquiring a star player prematurely that leads you to 30 wins
and hinders you from moving forward.
Adelman never coached a rebuild/losing team for us. He actually coached for the rebuilding Wolves and it wasn't ideal. Malone is a bottom 5 coach and probably won't get another head coaching gig whenever his stint in done is Denver.
I think NBA teams might start taking into account coaching when rebuilding. We've had a few examples of proven coaches flaming out in the past couple of years alone. Vogel was a complete failure in Orlando (though they hired Clifford! Lol!). Thibodeau was made God-Emperor in Minnesota, tanked their future, and is going to lose Jimmy Butler. Both of them are regarded as significantly better than Joerger, and what all three of them have in common is they took over rebuilding teams and aren't going to adjust their system that brought them success on their old team. Meanwhile, Utah and Boston hired unproven coaches to take their teams to the next level.
Rebuilding teams take into account going for the draft picks/prospects versus the proven star; why should it be any different for coaches? In this case, the unproven college or assistant coach is one who may flame out or can grow with a team while molding himself, ie the Stevens/Synders, and getting the Joergers/Thibodeaus/Vogels for a rebuilding team is the equivalent of acquiring a star player prematurely that leads you to 30 wins
and hinders you from moving forward.
Adelman never coached a rebuild/losing team for us. He actually coached for the rebuilding Wolves and it wasn't ideal. Malone is a bottom 5 coach and probably won't get another head coaching gig whenever his stint in done is Denver.
Jeorger said he would take "the training wheels" off this year so let's all give him a shot before we go head hunting. I liked what I saw from us in the first game with Fox playing and with Giles and Bagley running the floor it should be hard not to get out and run. The biggest impact on our ability to run is the defensive progression from fox to stop ball dominant guards and Giles being a disruptor. Its simple, get stops and get out in transition. You can't run if you're taking the ball out under the basket every time.