Clutch Kings

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#31
I do kindof wonder if Coach is happy to let DDR and Starfox do their mid-range thing every time down the floor with the game on the line, why not make that the core of the offense the rest of the game too? Rather than trying to establish the outside shooting game early, why not pound the defense with the same iso plays over and over again until they're forced to double and then start kicking it out to whoever is left wide open off the double?
 
#32
I do kindof wonder if Coach is happy to let DDR and Starfox do their mid-range thing every time down the floor with the game on the line, why not make that the core of the offense the rest of the game too? Rather than trying to establish the outside shooting game early, why not pound the defense with the same iso plays over and over again until they're forced to double and then start kicking it out to whoever is left wide open off the double.
I mean, that's sort of what's happening. A good chunk of these 3's we're bricking are pretty great/open shots.

And you just can't keep up if you abandon the 3. I don't want us forcing up contested 3's while we're struggling, but this offense isn't going to be unlocked if we don't take advantage of these open looks created by DDR/Fox/Domas creating rim pressure. That's the whole thesis of this core.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#33
The Kings are only 23rd in the league in total three pointers attempted so it’s not like they’re just jacking obscene amounts of threes up as is
 
#34
I mean, that's sort of what's happening. A good chunk of these 3's we're bricking are pretty great/open shots.

And you just can't keep up if you abandon the 3. I don't want us forcing up contested 3's while we're struggling, but this offense isn't going to be unlocked if we don't take advantage of these open looks created by DDR/Fox/Domas creating rim pressure. That's the whole thesis of this core.
Would taking 20-25 per game, be considered abandoning the 3 point shot? Our three lead players in Sabonis, DeRozan, and Fox are best closer to the rim. Why not play to that strength a bit more?

I want to see them take open looks near the line right now and not launch 28-30 foot heat checks.
 
#35
Would taking 20-25 per game, be considered abandoning the 3 point shot? Our three lead players in Sabonis, DeRozan, and Fox are best closer to the rim. Why not play to that strength a bit more?

I want to see them take open looks near the line right now and not launch 28-30 foot heat checks.
Yes, that's abandoning the 3. We're already in the bottom third of the league in 3PA. Bottom of the league in 3p%. You're just not going to be competitive if you're losing the 3pt battle by 6+ 3's every game.

Where did I say anything about launching 28-30 foot heat checks? I said we shouldn't be forcing contested 3's going through this slump, but we should not be giving up open 3's when they're there. That's stupid.
 
#36
Yes, that's abandoning the 3. We're already in the bottom third of the league in 3PA. Bottom of the league in 3p%. You're just not going to be competitive if you're losing the 3pt battle by 6+ 3's every game.

Where did I say anything about launching 28-30 foot heat checks? I said we shouldn't be forcing contested 3's going through this slump, but we should not be giving up open 3's when they're there. That's stupid.
I'm not sure that is true. I know it's a popular analytics assumption. If you defend the 3 point line adequately, which the Kings haven't done yet, then you can win games with lead players who are really good at closer distance.

I've been mentioning the real deep 3 attempts as an additional point, that doesn't usually help the team. Monk and Huerter are the two that do it. Huerter launched a 30 footer last night, early in the clock. Didn't like it, even though he was playing well
 
#37
I'm not sure that is true. I know it's a popular analytics assumption. If you defend the 3 point line adequately, which the Kings haven't done yet, then you can win games with lead players who are really good at closer distance.

I've been mentioning the real deep 3 attempts as an additional point, that doesn't usually help the team. Monk and Huerter are the two that do it. Huerter launched a 30 footer last night, early in the clock. Didn't like it, even though he was playing well
If we say the first Warriors ring was the start of the 3PA revolution, here's where every champion finished in shooting:

Boston: 1st in 3PA, 2nd in 3p%

Denver: 25 in 3PA, 4th in 3p%

GSW: 3rd in 3PA, 8th in 3p%

MIL: 8th in 3PA, 5th in 3p%

LAL: 23 in 3PA, 21 in 3p%

TOR: 11th in 3PA, 6th in 3p%

GSW: 17th in 3PA, 1st in 3p%

GSW: 5th in 3PA, 3rd in 3p%

Cavs:
3rd in 3PA, 7th in 3p%

GSW: 4th in 3PA, 1st in 3p%

Spurs the year prior:

Spurs: 16th in 3PA, 1st in 3p%

So of the past 11 champions, the only team that really supports your case are the Lakers, who just happened to have LeBron James and Anthony Davis, who decided to be ungodly good from the mid-range during that playoff run. And that LAL team had the best defense in basketball. Even if a few of these teams didn't take a ton, they're still among the best shooting teams in basketball.
 
#40
If we say the first Warriors ring was the start of the 3PA revolution, here's where every champion finished in shooting:

Boston: 1st in 3PA, 2nd in 3p%

Denver: 25 in 3PA, 4th in 3p%

GSW: 3rd in 3PA, 8th in 3p%

MIL: 8th in 3PA, 5th in 3p%

LAL: 23 in 3PA, 21 in 3p%

TOR: 11th in 3PA, 6th in 3p%

GSW: 17th in 3PA, 1st in 3p%

GSW: 5th in 3PA, 3rd in 3p%

Cavs: 3rd in 3PA, 7th in 3p%

GSW: 4th in 3PA, 1st in 3p%

Spurs the year prior:

Spurs: 16th in 3PA, 1st in 3p%

So of the past 11 champions, the only team that really supports your case are the Lakers, who just happened to have LeBron James and Anthony Davis, who decided to be ungodly good from the mid-range during that playoff run. And that LAL team had the best defense in basketball. Even if a few of these teams didn't take a ton, they're still among the best shooting teams in basketball.
How about raising your %, while being more selective with better looks and less attempts overall. Worth a try, when you have elite mid and short range players.

I'm certain that continuing to force lots of them, while having a very poor %, doesn't work
 
#41
How about raising your %, while being more selective with better looks and less attempts overall. Worth a try, when you have elite mid and short range players.

I'm certain that continuing to force lots of them, while having a very poor %, doesn't work
Alright, you're just ignoring what I'm saying. Whatever
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#43
Alright, you're just ignoring what I'm saying. Whatever
Denver winning while finishing 25th in 3PA also seems like a counter-argument to your theory that teams can't win while finishing in the bottom third in attempts. All we're saying here is that a strong offense is built around low turnovers and high TS%. You can get there with a steady diet of free throws and mid-range jumpers as long as you shoot a high percentage on both... which this year's Kings team has.

Obviously we still need to take and make open three's but maybe instead of emphasizing our 3PA's as an abstract number we should acknowledge that not all attempts are equal, focus on playing off our two elite mid-range shooters as much as possible, and make sure that every 3PA we make is a good one. Stop shooting those early shot-clock heaves and three feet behind the line prayers. Stop running the perimeter sets where the ball never enters the paint.
 
#44
Denver winning while finishing 25th in 3PA also seems like a counter-argument to your theory that teams can't win while finishing in the bottom third in attempts. All we're saying here is that a strong offense is built around low turnovers and high TS%. You can get there with list of turnovers and mid-range jumpers as long as you shoot a get high percentage on both... which this year's Kings team has.

Obviously we still need to take and make open three's but maybe instead of emphasizing our 3PA's as an abstract number we should acknowledge that not all attempts are equal, focus on playing off our two elite mid-range shooters as much as possible, and make sure that every 3PA we make is a good one. Stop shooting those early shot-clock heaves and three feet behind the line prayers.
25th in 3PA, but top 5 in 3p%. Also, possibly the best offensive player of all-time on their side changes that equation.

Right now, the Kings aren't chucking, we're literally 23rd in 3PA. We can't go down much further. We need to just start hitting these open shots.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
#45
25th in 3PA, but top 5 in 3p%. Also, possibly the best offensive player of all-time on their side changes that equation.

Right now, the Kings aren't chucking, we're literally 23rd in 3PA. We can't go down much further. We need to just start hitting these open shots.
It doesn't change the equation if all you're talking about is attempts though. The Kings most certainly are still chucking if we look at the quality of their shot attempts not just the volume.
 
#46
25th in 3PA, but top 5 in 3p%. Also, possibly the best offensive player of all-time on their side changes that equation.

Right now, the Kings aren't chucking, we're literally 23rd in 3PA. We can't go down much further. We need to just start hitting these open shots.
DeRozan+Fox+Sabonis changes the Kings equation, in my opinion