Being labeled soft

[DirtyAcres]

Having followed the Kings for quite some time now, I have been used to hearing others refer to our team as "soft". I hated hearing the term and tried my best to defend my team, but really had nothing to come back with. For years and years my Kings team was in fact soft. We had no enforcer, we had no thug, we had no defense. We were a bunch of jumpshooting offensive minded flopping pansies.

Then, we acquired Ron Artest. Our team image instantly changed. We finally had the guy who was the definition of toughness. We got what we wanted, or did we? I personally like what Artest brings to the court for the Sacramento Kings. I like his heart, his effort, his talent, and his tenacity. I realize he's had problems but hey, who doesn't? We'd look a lot worse if we had media following us around and reporting/twisting all the bad things we've done.

Having read over a lot of posts here by some well established members I have this question:

Which did you prefer, being labeled "soft" or dropping that label and dealing with Ron Artest?

 

[VF21]

I actually don't care what term others use to refer to the Kings. And it's not about image. Having said that, I personally would rather live with a silly label than continue to deal with the paradox that is Ron Artest.

You asked...

 

[Larry89]

Ron can singlehandedly lose us games. Salmons can take his place.

 

[DirtyAcres]

I actually don't care what term others use to refer to the Kings. And it's not about image. Having said that, I personally would rather live with a silly label than continue to deal with the paradox that is Ron Artest.

You asked...

But the label was true and I think you know what I meant. We were a soft team, we were terrible on defense. I've been reading Kings message boards for years and 99% percent of Kings fans have complained about being "soft".

We suddenly become "unsoft" and 99% of the people want the guy who helped us become "unsoft" shipped off because of some "ticking"? I just don't see the logic in that.

I'd rather keep Ron and see if the ticking does just that, keeps on ticking. His trade value is not as high as his talent. We won't get an equal player/players in return. What have we lost by keeping him around? As much as one can think he'll explode and press the panic button, I'll just continue to sit here and watch Ron do what he's done since he's arrived in Sacramento, play hard.

 

[DirtyAcres]

Ron can singlehandedly lose us games. Salmons can take his place.

And he's singlehandedly won us games. And you could point out any player in any specific game and say they've "singlehandedly lost us games".

Now I realize Ron has a tendency to try and do too much, but I guess that is just the nature of the player, and that is also what makes him so tenacious on the defensive end.

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Sorry for getting off topic. I don't really want this to turn into a Trade/Keep Ron Artest thread. I really wanted to keep this about whether or not we'd rather go back to being soft defensively by giving up Artest.

 

[VF21]

But the label was true and I think you know what I meant. We were a soft team, we were terrible on defense. I've been reading Kings message boards for years and 99% percent of Kings fans have complained about being "soft".

We suddenly become "unsoft" and 99% of the people want the guy who helped us become "unsoft" shipped off because of some "ticking"? I just don't see the logic in that.

I'd rather keep Ron and see if the ticking does just that, keeps on ticking. His trade value is not as high as his talent. We won't get an equal player/players in return. What have we lost by keeping him around? As much as one can think he'll explode and press the panic button, I'll just continue to sit here and watch Ron do what he's done since he's arrived in Sacramento, play hard.

Ron Artest brings more dissent and angst to Kings fans than any other player ever has or arguably ever will. I don't think anyone questions his heart. Even Pacer fans will give him credit for heart and hustle.

You're putting too much stock in a label, IMHO. It's not about appearing "soft". It's about playing good cohesive team ball. I happen to believe the Kings do that better WITHOUT the presence of Ron Artest. And that's the bottom line for this fan.

Did you watch last night's game? Ron was in a different universe. The antics are becoming more pronounced. It would have been pushing the panic button last year. This year it's seeing the handwriting on the wall. And yes, I know some will disagree. And probably will ... until and unless the worst case scenario happens again. And that is the one thing NO Kings fan wants.

This isn't the first time we've had this discussion but I'm sure hoping it might be close to the last. But again, that's simply my opinion.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Honestly, we have more problems right now than being called "soft." I think you worry about being competitive, stockpiling talent, preparing for another run at a title, before you worry about subjective labeling. Back from 99-03, when we were starting out, we had to get over the "softness" before we could compete with the big boys. But right now, as the team is declining/starting over, being called soft is one of the last of my concerns.

 

[DirtyAcres]

Ron Artest brings more dissent and angst to Kings fans than any other player ever has or arguably ever will.

The antics are becoming more pronounced.

Guess I just don't see "antics" as a reason to trade a guy for half his value.

until and unless the worst case scenario happens again. And that is the one thing NO Kings fan wants.

Curious as to what you think the worst case scenario happens again means. Are you saying you feel he will go into the stands again? If not, what do you feel is the worst case scenario?

 

[VF21]

The worst case scenario isn't written down like a script. In the worst case, Artest will again prove to be so disruptive that the team suffers, much like what happened in INdiana AFTER he returned from his suspension.

You may not want to trade him for "half his value" but if he walks at the end of the year we lose his FULL value. Nothing in return... Zilch. And someone's value, BTW, is nothing unless you're able to find someone to pay it.

Artest has had verbal exchanges on the court with the coach, which to me is unacceptable. He's tried to take over and be the coach, which is also unacceptable. He's so focused on his own game that he develops the worst possible tunnel vision and doesn't pass the ball to an open teammate, even when they're jumping up and down, which to be is ... yes... unacceptable.

I've watched him box out our own players for rebounds which is just a wasted effort.

He has heart and hustle but he is NOT what the Kings need to move into the future. Let Salmons and Garcia have his minutes. Let people call the Kings "soft" if that's their choice.

It's about moving forward, not about a label. The Kings aren't going to become a hard-histting, defensively oriented team as long as Geoff Petrie is the GM because that's not the type of team he builds. I'm seeing more defensive focus because that's what Reggie is trying to instill.

Artest or no Artest, defense starts with the guy drafting the players, filters down to the guys wearing the suits at the end of the bench close to the scorer's table and then shows on the court.

 

[DocHolliday]

Ron Artest brings more dissent and angst to Kings fans than any other player ever has or arguably ever will. I don't think anyone questions his heart. Even Pacer fans will give him credit for heart and hustle.

You're putting too much stock in a label, IMHO. It's not about appearing "soft". It's about playing good cohesive team ball. I happen to believe the Kings do that better WITHOUT the presence of Ron Artest. And that's the bottom line for this fan.

Did you watch last night's game? Ron was in a different universe. The antics are becoming more pronounced. It would have been pushing the panic button last year. This year it's seeing the handwriting on the wall. And yes, I know some will disagree. And probably will ... until and unless the worst case scenario happens again. And that is the one thing NO Kings fan wants.

This isn't the first time we've had this discussion but I'm sure hoping it might be close to the last. But again, that's simply my opinion.

I've been steady in saying that Ron for all intensive purposes has been a good citizen since he came to Sacramento. Yeah he had a dog incident, and yeah he had an argument with his wife, it happens. In general though he has been fine.

That being said the fit he had on the ground after having a foul called his way was troubling to me. His arms waved violently with his eyes closed as if he was in a different place for a second. There should have been no anger, he was fouled and got the call, if he wasn't expressing anger, then I'm not sure what he was expressing, and that also worries me.

What is also concerning is the fact that Grant and others that are around the team a lot are reporting that it's the team and Ron. It's not that the other players don't like him, or don't get along with him, it's just they have the mindset of, "That's just Ron." When he says crazy things in the media, they don't get mad, they just say, "That's just Ron.", and don't give it a second thought.

This team is a team through and through right now except for Ron Artest. He has one us games, but he has lost more games, that there is no way we should have lost, because he has forced too much garbage. Last night is a perfect example. The Warriors didn't win that game. The Kings lost it, because of Ron.

The label for this team is now gone, there are more people on this team that can play defense than Ron. Quinch Douby, John Salmons, Francisco Garcia, Brad Miller, Mikki Moore, Beno Udrih, and sometimes Bibby now can play defense. Also, this team hustles and play together. If anyone calls this team soft, or The Queens, they are hanging onto old hat. It's not the truth anymore.

It's time for Ron to go whether it's before the trade deadline, or at the end of the year when he opts out. I'm ok with it either way. This team will be better for it in the long run. If this was a 27 yo Bruce Bowen, who is a good team player, but brings it nasty style on the court every night, I'd be singing a different tune.

 

[DirtyAcres]

The Warriors didn't win that game. The Kings lost it, because of Ron.

I can agree with you that Artest has lost games before, but to say it was his fault last night? What about Martin's stellar performance of 3-16? How does he duck the blame?

I do in fact think that Theus coaching style has made this team much better on the defensive end, but to not give any credit to Artest and what he's taught the younger players is not totally fair.

 

[VF21]

I can agree with you that Artest has lost games before, but to say it was his fault last night? What about Martin's stellar performance of 3-16? How does he duck the blame?

I do in fact think that Theus coaching style has made this team much better on the defensive end, but to not give any credit to Artest and what he's taught the younger players is not totally fair.

What he's taught the younger players? Hrm... let's see. Hog the ball, play ISO even though your teammate is wide open, argue with the coach on the court, taunt other players and fans of other teams, take ill-advised shots when there's lots of time left on the clock to find the open man...

Yeah, those are all valuable lessons.

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And yes, I know that was sarcastic. But this is far beyond the first thread devoted to this discussion and the idea that Artest alone deserves credit for "what he's taught the younger players" cannot be tossed out there as though it's in a vacuum. With the good stuff comes a lot of less-than-good stuff. It's part and parcel of the package that is Ron Artest and I'm ready for FedEx to come pick him up and take him elsewhere.

 

[NikateeN]

What it all comes down to is most Kings fans are here to watch team basketball, Artest doesnt do that, and he isnt one of those players that makes his teammates better, he plays by himself unless he absolutely cannot.

All of us here miss those glory days, now we know its probably never going to be like that again, but from what i can see we all at least want to see some of that good team basketball that we know the Kings can play, and that just doesnt happen too often wehn Ron is on the floor, its really all pretty simple.

I like Artest, i like what he did for us, but he thinks hes Kobe, and hes blind to other players, that doesnt belong on this team.

 

[DocHolliday]

I can agree with you that Artest has lost games before, but to say it was his fault last night? What about Martin's stellar performance of 3-16? How does he duck the blame?

I do in fact think that Theus coaching style has made this team much better on the defensive end, but to not give any credit to Artest and what he's taught the younger players is not totally fair.

Everybody has off nights. The team good have worked for better shots if at times the ball was moved around more when Artest kept it for himself and went one on one.

 

[fnordius]

The old softness taunt came, in my opinion, mostly from Vlade's flops and Peja's being Peja. That's ancient history.

If there's anything that can get us called soft now, it's inconsistent defense (some of our roster defend, others not), lack of inside presence, and coming up a little short WRT speed, muscle and athleticism. Ron only changes that at one position, and both Salmons and Garcia offer some of the same things that he does at SF.

To put it to rest once and for all, I don't think what we need is so much Artest-style perimeter D, but to draft the next Andrew Bynum or Marcus Camby.

Come to think of it, Ron just might be able to help us lose that label for good. If Miami or NY will exchange draft picks as part of a trade...

 

[DirtyAcres]

Hog the ball, play ISO even though your teammate is wide open, argue with the coach on the court, taunt other players and fans of other teams, take ill-advised shots when there's lots of time left on the clock to find the open man...

Kobe?



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And yes, I know that was sarcastic. But this is far beyond the first thread devoted to this discussion and the idea that Artest alone deserves credit for "what he's taught the younger players" cannot be tossed out there as though it's in a vacuum. With the good stuff comes a lot of less-than-good stuff. It's part and parcel of the package that is Ron Artest and I'm ready for FedEx to come pick him up and take him elsewhere.

You speak as if you are at all of their practices and I'm not sure if you are or not, but from what I've read the younger players seem to have picked up a lot from Artest during practice. It is obvious you don't want him on the team and that is fine, I'm just not ready to give up on the teams most talented player when it seems his teammates aren't ready to either.

 

[Entity]

Ron is weird point blank. Now as far as helping the youngsters. It has been well documented that he is the sole veteran hanging around after practices to help Garcia and Douby the past 2 years. If you think about it if you ranked our entire team as far as defense goes Douby and Garcia would be in the top 5. Ron does take ill advised shots Ron does think he is better than he is at times. On the other hand Ron is a mismatch at both the PF and the SF spot and creates problems for the other team offensivly and defensively. We can be competative without Ron but, we won't have that mismatch when needed.

I have always been an Artest supporter but, alot of times what he giveth he taketh away. Maybe a change is what we need. But Ron is a great player.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

You speak as if you are at all of their practices and I'm not sure if you are or not, but from what I've read the younger players seem to have picked up a lot from Artest during practice. It is obvious you don't want him on the team and that is fine, I'm just not ready to give up on the teams most talented player when it seems his teammates aren't ready to either.

Believe me, I totally agree with you, and have since day one. Ron Artest has done nothing but good for this team since he got to Sacramento, as far as I'm concerned, he's been a great influence to our young players both on and off the court, from what we have seen/heard, but none of us has been in the practices or on the team plane to see what actually happens, so we dont know what goes on, good or bad...just what the media wants to tell us. I look back to all the great defensive minded teams of the past...the Bucks of the 80's, the Pistons of the 80's, the Pistons of the recent past, and now the Celtics today are turning into a team like that...but if you look at all those teams, they all have had players that have had egos/attitudes, but the media hasnt hounded them like they have Ron Artest, who's arguably the best all around player on both sides of the court in the league, with the exception of Lebron, Kobe, Pierce, and Garnett, probably. BUT...with that stigma comes what we have today...a great player who doesnt want to be here, so he says, and no teams who want him, or would offer anything of any value in return for him. What do we do? Well, you either try and figure out what is wrong with him wanting to be here, or you cut off his lifeline, so to speak, and suspend him until you can get something in a trade, but you definitely cant let him throw stupid, childish fits on the court during games like he did last night. I have no problem with his effort on the court, because he seems to be the only one bringing any sort of effort on the floor some nights, but on other nights, its just stupid. I look at all the antics Dennis Rodman pulled while he was playing and kind of compare Ron's antics to his. Hell, he even kicked a cameraman in the 'sack'. Ron went into the stands in Detroit after a guy who threw beer on him during a game. What was the bigger crime, in NBA standards? Regardless, what Ron has done since he's been here in Sacramento hasnt been something I'd classify as THAT 'cancerous' at all, and if someone else wants him from us, dont just offer us junk in return. I hope whatever is going to happen with this, happens.

 

[VF21]

It is obvious you don't want him on the team and that is fine, I'm just not ready to give up on the teams most talented player when it seems his teammates aren't ready to either.

No offense whatsoever, but you're the one that started the thread. You asked for opinions and I gave you mine. If you're not ready to "give up on the teams most talented player," you and I are clearly in disagreement. But that's what message boards are for...

 

[DirtyAcres]

No offense whatsoever, but you're the one that started the thread. You asked for opinions and I gave you mine. If you're not ready to "give up on the teams most talented player," you and I are clearly in disagreement. But that's what message boards are for...

I was honestly curious as to whether or not you attend the practices because of some of the comments you made, because if you do attend practices, your information is very valuable. But if you don't attend practices, your comments are just like the rest of ours, a fans point of view.

 

[DirtyAcres]

Regardless, what Ron has done since he's been here in Sacramento hasnt been something I'd classify as THAT 'cancerous' at all, and if someone else wants him from us, dont just offer us junk in return.

Agreed. And to add to that, don't accept junk in return.

 

[Larry89]

And he's singlehandedly won us games. And you could point out any player in any specific game and say they've "singlehandedly lost us games".

Now I realize Ron has a tendency to try and do too much, but I guess that is just the nature of the player, and that is also what makes him so tenacious on the defensive end.

========================================================

Sorry for getting off topic. I don't really want this to turn into a Trade/Keep Ron Artest thread. I really wanted to keep this about whether or not we'd rather go back to being soft defensively by giving up Artest.

It may seem like he has singlehandedly won us game because he takes so many shots and hogs the ball.

I'd rather have John Salmons starting

Did you forget the technical foul last night?

And don't compare Kobe ISO to Ron Artest ISO

 

[VF21]

I was honestly curious as to whether or not you attend the practices because of some of the comments you made, because if you do attend practices, your information is very valuable. But if you don't attend practices, your comments are just like the rest of ours, a fans point of view.

Do I attend practices? Nope. Do I have access to information not always readily available to everyone? Now that's the real question, isn't it?

I've been here since August 2001. You've been here for hours. I would propose that I just might have that kind of access and you just don't know about it.



Oh and one more thing? In your post above, you took my comment and compared it to Kobe. THAT is a big part of Artest's problem. He thinks - and has said so publicly more than once - that he is every bit as good as Kobe Bryant and teams should accord him that respect.

 

[DirtyAcres]

I've been here since August 2001. You've been here for hours. I would propose that I just might have that kind of access and you just don't know about it.

So message board membership length and an insane post count equates to one having more inside knowledge? rofl

Oh and one more thing? In your post above, you took my comment and compared it to Kobe. THAT is a big part of Artest's problem. He thinks - and has said so publicly more than once - that he is every bit as good as Kobe Bryant and teams should accord him that respect.

I was also being sarcastic, but he does command "Kobesque" type respect on both ends. The same thing I quoted could have been used for multiple top tier players at certain times.

Artest is very, very close to being an elite player and I think he just needs the right coach (which could be Theus) and a team that wants him. I'd love to see the Kings offer Artest an extension for about 4 years/40 million.

 

[Larry89]

So message board membership length and an insane post count equates to one having more inside knowledge? rofl



I was also being sarcastic, but he does command "Kobesque" type respect on both ends. The same thing I quoted could have been used for multiple top tier players at certain times.

Artest is very, very close to being an elite player and I think he just needs the right coach (which could be Theus) and a team that wants him. I'd love to see the Kings offer Artest an extension for about 4 years/40 million.

He does not command Kobesque type respect.. he isn't he on the same level as him. You also forgot that his agent says hes worth around 13 million a year.

What if Theus isn't the right coach? Thats the trouble finding the right coach to deal with him...

 

[bloom]

Having followed the Kings for quite some time now, I have been used to hearing others refer to our team as "soft". I hated hearing the term and tried my best to defend my team, but really had nothing to come back with. For years and years my Kings team was in fact soft. We had no enforcer, we had no thug, we had no defense. We were a bunch of jumpshooting offensive minded flopping pansies.

Then, we acquired Ron Artest. Our team image instantly changed. We finally had the guy who was the definition of toughness. We got what we wanted, or did we? I personally like what Artest brings to the court for the Sacramento Kings. I like his heart, his effort, his talent, and his tenacity. I realize he's had problems but hey, who doesn't? We'd look a lot worse if we had media following us around and reporting/twisting all the bad things we've done.

Which did you prefer, being labeled "soft" or dropping that label and dealing with Ron Artest?

The word “soft” never really bothered me because our team was the best team in the NBA. The chemistry that we had and the way we played Team ball was just special/unique. I never wanted a “thug” or “hard-core” like player on our team, it’s not my style and apparently it’s not Geoff’s either. It actually bothered me more when people would call Peja “soft” (but that’s for another thread).

Yeah, I like that stuff about Ron too, but he has a problem. He’s not a team player and that doesn’t mean that he doesn’t like his teammates; he does. He’s mentioned several times that he loves what Kevin, Cisco, John are doing. So it’s not about him not liking the team. The problem is that there’s 2 different Ron’s. 1st: We have a guy that can flow into the offense. He’ll pass to the open teammate. He’ll defend and find his groove within the team’s play. He’ll high-five the fans and seem to really enjoy it. 2nd: Then we have the Ron who decides that he needs to “save” us (and that can start as early as the 1st quarter). He’ll play the Kobe or Lebron roll and try to take over, force the shot, not pass to his wide open teammate. He’ll yell at the coach in the middle of the game.

I never question Ron’s character. I think he seems like a great guy. Nice dude. He might not think before he speaks but that’s who he is and that’s something nobody can change. I’m sure he’s taught the young guys a thing or two. That’s not what bothers me about him, nor do I think he’s going to blow up. But I definitely don’t think he’s part of the future. I’d actually be really surprised if he was still here before trading deadline. I don’t care if he walks at the end of the year. Hopefully he’ll go on a team that can use him but here, it’s over. I just don’t see him fitting in anymore (same with another player). If you look at the team it’s just different and I have a feeling that might be bothering him a little and I’m sure he saw the change (cause he did mention something similar in the paper).

It’s not about “soft” vs. “tough” for me. It’s about the Team. And I love our “jumpshooting offensive minded flopping pansies” (without the pansies part. lol). There needs to be change and Ron’s right in there.

 

[DirtyAcres]

He does not command Kobesque type respect.. he isn't he on the same level as him.

Maybe Kobesque is the wrong word, I didn't meaning it as in Kobesque skill set, but more of how teams have to game plan for Artest, much like they do Kobe.

You also forgot that his agent says hes worth around 13 million a year.

I didn't forget anything, I said I felt he was worth around 10 a year. Does that not sound fair?

 

[VF21]

So message board membership length and an insane post count equates to one having more inside knowledge? rofl

I'm not claiming anything other than the fact I've been here over 6 years, have made a LOT of posts and you've been here a couple of hours. You might have missed a few things. Take my posts for whatever you think they're worth... and if that's nothing, I have no problem whatsoever with it.

Artest is very, very close to being an elite player and I think he just needs the right coach (which could be Theus) and a team that wants him. I'd love to see the Kings offer Artest an extension for about 4 years/40 million.

And you're entitled to your opinion. Don't hold your breath on that 4 years/40 million, though... There's no way on earth Artest would consider anything less than what Kevin Martin got. Think about it...

 

[DirtyAcres]

1st: We have a guy that can flow into the offense. He’ll pass to the open teammate. He’ll defend and find his groove within the team’s play. He’ll high-five the fans and seem to really enjoy it.

If only we could see this night in and night out.

 

[DirtyAcres]

There's no way on earth Artest would consider anything less than what Kevin Martin got. Think about it...

What does he do when other teams aren't offering him anything more?