Barry Bonds Indicted!!

[BawLa]

So you think that the police should not arrest anyone for lesser crimes? I mean, come on, why report to the stolen vehicle call when there is a 3-year old unsolved rape case you could be spending more time on. And why even bother with speeders at all? Is there really a crime there? Let's wait until they kill someone first and then arrest them.

So let me get this straight - you know he's guilty of cheating and lying and you just don't care? You know, just for the record.

I'm not a "baseball" fan. The only baseball I watch is an occasional River Cats game and I really enjoy it, but only because it's cheap and local. If the Bay Area teams are in the World Series I might try to watch as well. Given that, even I can't stand what Barry is about. I can't imagine someone who loves the game can turn a blind eye to Barry's antics and whitewash his degradation of "America's sport". And it's not just Barry, but he's just the most obvious case because of his chasing of the record and obvious lying about it. He turns himself into the lightning rod and then wonders why lightning strikes....

You misinterperet my meaning. I don't think you shouldn't arrest someone for lesser crimes. But I do think you shouldn't spend that amount of time and money for that particular crime. It isn't really much of a crime at all. Stealing a car or rape or murder are MUCH MUCH higher up on the list than lying about taking steriods. So the sheer amount of resources spent on "bringing Barry down" is ridiculous. If you convinced me that the government spends much more time and money on much more serious crimes on a much more frequent basis, then I might back off a little bit. But as of right now, this looks like a witch hunt for a scapegoat. Furthermore, is taking steriods even a crime? I could be wrong but I don't think so. So lying about a non-crime is not even in the same ballpark as lying about an actual crime. You know how Barry was supposed to be booked today? Well he isn't going to be, because he doesn't have to be. Even the law says that Barry can be booked on his arraignment date because he doesn't pose a threat to the community. Clearly even the law views lying about steroids as different than other crimes or perjury-linked crimes.

"So you know he's guilty of cheating and lying"... Umm not yet buddy. You've jumped to a conclusion without even giving the man due process...that is wrong. If you think he is guilty, fine. You think he is guilty until proven innocent, I think he is innocent until proven guilty. If you were such a "proponent of the system" then I would think you would wait before annointing him guilty.

Maybe if you were a baseball fan, and if you watched the things that the man did in between the lines, then you might not be so quick to say that steroids did it all. If you watched him on a regular basis, you might not be so quick to judge him as a person. Sure he can be a dick, he can be selfish, he can be arrogant...he's a superstar sports player and a human being. But he can also be a genuinely good guy. You just don't see it from ESPN. And given that he is not too friendly with the media, I can understand why you don't get that view. But that doesn't mean it isn't there. Trusting ESPN for your view of his personality is like being a horse with blinders on...sure you have a great view of what is right in front of you, but you are missing the peripheral view.

Let me share some information with you that you might not have ever seen, let alone thought was possible.

A Giant in the Community
A devout family man, it was Barry’s love and devotion to his children that led him to launch the Bonds Family Foundation with the goal to encourage, promote and fund programs designed to improve educational achievements, standard of living and quality of life for underprivileged youth in the Bay Area. Having grown up in the Bay Area, Bonds feels it is essential to make a difference in the local community. Most recently, he made a commitment to support UCSF Children’s Hospital, raising funds to help make each child’s stay at the hospital a more comfortable one. Each season, Bonds donates 25 tickets to every home game to Bay Area charities for underprivileged children to sit in the “Bonds Squad.” Bonds, the recipient of the 1999 Philanthropist of the Year Award by the National Conference on Black Philanthropy, embraces today’s technology as the gateway to opportunity. It is his conviction towards education that the foundation established the Link N’ Learn program, “Bridge to the Future” campaign as well as the Bonds Private School Scholarship Fund. Prior to the 2002 Winter Games Bonds participated in the Olympic Torch relay carrying the torch through the final portion of the San Francisco leg and lit the cauldron, which became one of his proudest moments as an American.

http://barrybonds.mlb.com/players/bonds_barry/about/bio.jsp

And I don't blame Barry for being a dick to the media. F*** the media. Many times the media outlets are the arrogant dicks. They think that every person has to fall in line and give them what they want, when they want it. They huddle around like packrats, yelling questions at a million miles an hour, and if you don't give them what they want, then they paint an ugly picture of you. I have much more to say about the media, but that is not the point of this so I will just leave it at that.

Finally, you talk about the degredation of America's sport. Barry is not the only one who took steriods. He is just the best one. If he was one of a small group of guys that took them, then I would be on your bandwagon. But the evidence seems to point out that there are more users than we can possibly imagine. Everyone was doing it. It might be safe to say that most were doing it. Many are/were doing it in other sports. It doesn't make it right, it is just reality. So I have adapted my view to deal with this reality. I look at steriods in baseball as an era, the steriods era. And players from that era are a function of that era. Players in baseball during the deadball era were a function of that era. If you want to strip one man of his accomplishments then you need to strip ALL men of their accomplishments. Start with that 2002 WS by the Angels...give it back to the Giants, because Troy Glaus was a known user. Go back to the 1989 Canseco/McGuire A's and take their championship away and give it back to the Giants. Start with those, and work your way down the list. But how far does it really go back?? The history of anabolic steriods is much deeper than the majority of people know. The use of anabolic steriods as an abusable drug goes back to the 1950's. And assuming that everyone that played baseball and other sports during that time weren't using steriods would seem nieve to me. "Surveys in 1989 estimate that there are 500,000 adolescent steroid abusers nationwide..." That is just crazy.

http://www.anabolicsmall.com/roida3a.htm

Again, I'm not saying it is right. I'm not saying it is okay to lie. I'm saying it just is...and maybe we should find a better way to deal with the truth.

 

[uolj]

Taking steroids without a proper prescription is illegal.

Guilty until proven innocent applies to the courts, there's no reason it must apply to public opinion as well.

The fact that Bonds had a Hall of Fame career before he used performance enhancing drugs doesn't excuse him from being criticized for using them.

Whether the government spent too much time and money on this case is a legitimate question in my mind, but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore what they found.

 

[Glenn]

I haven't read every word of every post but I understand that this could get very heated.

I will look at this as the average joe on the street although I really am not.

I guy buys substances over time and pays for them. He gets them rubbed, injected, snorted or however the drugs were given over a period of time. While doing so his muscles get bigger and he begins to hit home runs at an enormous if not other worldly rate. He periodically gives a urine sample. What for? Flaxseed oil?

And he didn't know what was being injected? He was told flaxseed oil or something like that? He believed it? Weren't these childhood friends?

I chopped out the details as I think this is what a jury will hear and remember. Will an average joe believe that Bonds didn't know what was being injected into his body and why he magically became so darn strong.

If I have something injected into my body, I ask and as I am not an average joe, I will not believe it is flaxseed oil.

Steroids were around baseball at a highly significant rate and despite his grumpy behavior, he must have known that SOME people used steroids and that these same people got real strong and hit a lot of home runs, just like him.

Will a jury believe he was so ignorant?

Oh, and if he's convicted, please no jail time. We have better uses for jails. If he is convicted, the punishment of being disgraced will be enough. Let's put people in jail who are a danger to society but that's a whole other argument.

Now if I have missed some details, jump on me if you must. I don't remember what he was told was being given him but I DO know that what he was told did not cost so much, didn't create big muscles, and didn't require urine tests.

 

[Warhawk]

You misinterperet my meaning. I don't think you shouldn't arrest someone for lesser crimes. But I do think you shouldn't spend that amount of time and money for that particular crime. It isn't really much of a crime at all. Stealing a car or rape or murder are MUCH MUCH higher up on the list than lying about taking steriods. So the sheer amount of resources spent on "bringing Barry down" is ridiculous. If you convinced me that the government spends much more time and money on much more serious crimes on a much more frequent basis, then I might back off a little bit. But as of right now, this looks like a witch hunt for a scapegoat. Furthermore, is taking steriods even a crime? I could be wrong but I don't think so. So lying about a non-crime is not even in the same ballpark as lying about an actual crime. You know how Barry was supposed to be booked today? Well he isn't going to be, because he doesn't have to be. Even the law says that Barry can be booked on his arraignment date because he doesn't pose a threat to the community. Clearly even the law views lying about steroids as different than other crimes or perjury-linked crimes.

"So you know he's guilty of cheating and lying"... Umm not yet buddy. You've jumped to a conclusion without even giving the man due process...that is wrong. If you think he is guilty, fine. You think he is guilty until proven innocent, I think he is innocent until proven guilty. If you were such a "proponent of the system" then I would think you would wait before annointing him guilty.

Maybe if you were a baseball fan, and if you watched the things that the man did in between the lines, then you might not be so quick to say that steroids did it all. If you watched him on a regular basis, you might not be so quick to judge him as a person. Sure he can be a dick, he can be selfish, he can be arrogant...he's a superstar sports player and a human being. But he can also be a genuinely good guy. You just don't see it from ESPN. And given that he is not too friendly with the media, I can understand why you don't get that view. But that doesn't mean it isn't there. Trusting ESPN for your view of his personality is like being a horse with blinders on...sure you have a great view of what is right in front of you, but you are missing the peripheral view.

Let me share some information with you that you might not have ever seen, let alone thought was possible.

A Giant in the Community
A devout family man, it was Barry’s love and devotion to his children that led him to launch the Bonds Family Foundation with the goal to encourage, promote and fund programs designed to improve educational achievements, standard of living and quality of life for underprivileged youth in the Bay Area. Having grown up in the Bay Area, Bonds feels it is essential to make a difference in the local community. Most recently, he made a commitment to support UCSF Children’s Hospital, raising funds to help make each child’s stay at the hospital a more comfortable one. Each season, Bonds donates 25 tickets to every home game to Bay Area charities for underprivileged children to sit in the “Bonds Squad.” Bonds, the recipient of the 1999 Philanthropist of the Year Award by the National Conference on Black Philanthropy, embraces today’s technology as the gateway to opportunity. It is his conviction towards education that the foundation established the Link N’ Learn program, “Bridge to the Future” campaign as well as the Bonds Private School Scholarship Fund. Prior to the 2002 Winter Games Bonds participated in the Olympic Torch relay carrying the torch through the final portion of the San Francisco leg and lit the cauldron, which became one of his proudest moments as an American.

http://barrybonds.mlb.com/players/bonds_barry/about/bio.jsp

And I don't blame Barry for being a dick to the media. F*** the media. Many times the media outlets are the arrogant dicks. They think that every person has to fall in line and give them what they want, when they want it. They huddle around like packrats, yelling questions at a million miles an hour, and if you don't give them what they want, then they paint an ugly picture of you. I have much more to say about the media, but that is not the point of this so I will just leave it at that.

Finally, you talk about the degredation of America's sport. Barry is not the only one who took steriods. He is just the best one. If he was one of a small group of guys that took them, then I would be on your bandwagon. But the evidence seems to point out that there are more users than we can possibly imagine. Everyone was doing it. It might be safe to say that most were doing it. Many are/were doing it in other sports. It doesn't make it right, it is just reality. So I have adapted my view to deal with this reality. I look at steriods in baseball as an era, the steriods era. And players from that era are a function of that era. Players in baseball during the deadball era were a function of that era. If you want to strip one man of his accomplishments then you need to strip ALL men of their accomplishments. Start with that 2002 WS by the Angels...give it back to the Giants, because Troy Glaus was a known user. Go back to the 1989 Canseco/McGuire A's and take their championship away and give it back to the Giants. Start with those, and work your way down the list. But how far does it really go back?? The history of anabolic steriods is much deeper than the majority of people know. The use of anabolic steriods as an abusable drug goes back to the 1950's. And assuming that everyone that played baseball and other sports during that time weren't using steriods would seem nieve to me. "Surveys in 1989 estimate that there are 500,000 adolescent steroid abusers nationwide..." That is just crazy.

http://www.anabolicsmall.com/roida3a.htm

Again, I'm not saying it is right. I'm not saying it is okay to lie. I'm saying it just is...and maybe we should find a better way to deal with the truth.

A crime is a crime - I'm not going to start telling the feds not to go after some criminals just because you don't think it's worth it. He shouldn't have lied to the feds under oath.

Yes, it is in this instance. I imagine if he had a prescription he'd have waved it around by now.

This is the court of public opinion. I can have an opinion on this issue and him without invalidating any of his rights. If this was a courtroom of course he would be considered innocent until proven guilty. I was on a jury for attempted murder (and aggrevated mayhem with a gang enhancement) case - you don't have to explain the difference to me.

In case you missed it earlier - I have already said BB was one of the best players ever before he started shooting up and rubbing stuff on. I am fully aware of how great of a player he was before doing this. It doesn't mean he was any less wrong to do so, no matter how many others did, too. I am not holding BB to some special standard for punishment - if any others lied to the feds as well they should get the same punishment. To my knowledge, BB is the only one who blatantly lied to the court and would not admit using.

 

[VF21]

I'm not going to be talking about this any more. There are still people who believe the world is flat, too, and no one will convince them otherwise. And BawLa, I actually applaud you for having the courage of your convictions, even if the evidence is becoming more and more overwhelming against Bonds and your interpretation of the facts.

He LIED to a grand jury, even while under a grant of immunity. That is HUGE! The grand jury is a keystone of our judicial system. People who lie under oath need to be punished for doing so lest others feel they, too, can commit perjury. Had he told the truth, he would not be facing federal charges right now. He had IMMUNITY. But his ego wouldn't allow him to be truthful because he would have to admit, if even only to himself, that he cheated. Regardless of what good things he may have done, he should still be held accountable for his actions in this matter.

Going after Bonds and the others involved in BALCO is the tip of the iceberg. It's an attempt to purge the use of steroids ... and it's probably a losing battle. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be fought. If this guy's name wasn't Barry Bonds, would you still be defending him? Look at how demean the other players who took the drugs. The only difference I can see is you defend Bonds.

Warhawk and Glenn are doing an excellent job of saying pretty much what I would say. I agree strongly with Glenn on this part, which will probably shock BawLa, who thinks I'm out for Bonds' head on a spike.

Oh, and if he's convicted, please no jail time. We have better uses for jails. If he is convicted, the punishment of being disgraced will be enough. Let's put people in jail who are a danger to society but that's a whole other argument.

Equal justice under the law would be served if Bonds is finally forced to admit publicly that he did take steroids, he knew what they were AND he lied. Putting him in jail would not give me any kind of satisfaction or joy.