Bagley and Defense

[Double-K]

Came across this article from a while back. While it is overall a pretty nice read, there is one particular moment that is really interesting when the interviewer asked him point blank about his defense. His response:

"I don't know where that came from. Like I said, people take whatever they hear and run with it. That's been a thing all year. I'm not saying I'm a perfect defender. Everybody makes mistakes out there, especially being new (to college) and out there playing. You're not going to be perfect on defense. People see one thing and see that, take it, put it out there. A lot of people see it, read it, they start saying it, then it just trickles down to "Oh, he's just a bad defender." I think it's all BS, to be honest, if I'm being completely honest. I don't worry about it, though. Eventually people will see. That's all I'm working for, to show people my full package, everything I can bring to a team...
... If you go back [to before Duke] and look at everything, you can see that I love to block shots. That's when I was around the basket, back guy communicating. When I came into Duke it was a new situation where I had to learn different positions, and I challenged myself to learn those positions. It was my first time playing on the wings, learning how to jab at a guy coming in, getting back to the corner. It was a learning process for me. "

One thing that really piques my interest, it seems to really irk him about the fact that he was dropped from consensus number 1 to 2 after a year of college due to his lackluster defense. (Particularly due to his feel for the game and his BBall IQ). The way I look at it on the surface, it does almost seem to me that his response is a little bit naive (since it is quite evident that his lackluster defense came from him being absent-minded or just not being able to read the offense). But the fact that, from his tone, the way that it irks him, that could very well be something he'd put his head down and really hone to get better. And like I said in another post, he already has the advantage due to the freakish athleticism.


Read the original article here:
NBA Draft Q&A: Marvin Bagley III on his huge Puma deal and challenge to those who doubt him at No. 1
https://www.cbssports.com/college-b...and-challenge-to-those-who-doubt-him-at-no-1/

 

[VF21]

Thanks for sharing.

 

[KINGSonFIRE]

Hoping all this talk of having weak defense really pushes him to improve in that area. I have no doubt that he’ll be an ok defender as he grows in the league.

 

[Double-K]

Hoping all this talk of having weak defense really pushes him to improve in that area. I have no doubt that he’ll be an ok defender as he grows in the league.

Yeah, to me, good defense comes from two options. One, you are a tactician (Jason Kidd, Lebron James, etc) where you read your opponent's offense and calculates a priority list of possible scoring opportunities and make adjustments on the fly. Two, you are a physical freak and you make quick recoveries on the fly.

The first option largely comes from experience. While the second option mainly comes from your heart and dedication on the court and how much you are willing/capable to make the defensive adjustment. So if it really irritates him, it would suggest that he at least is willing to make that extra step, from closing out on shooters, to making the effort to boxout, etc. And besides his advantage of being so freakishly athletic, he'll also be better after he get used to the team's system and his teammates tendency.

 

[allrightythen]

His defense is a concern for sure, but I'm confident it will improve. I think if you give Bagley a job that allows him to be aggressive he'll be much more locked it. Floating around in a zone requires less effort overall, but for a guy who thrives on playing with aggression like Bagley I think it can be stifling. I think you'll see more effort from him on defense where he can be a little more aggressive. I'm sure there will still be a lot of mistakes early on, but it won't be an effort/interest thing like it appears to be at Duke.

 

[ockingsfan]

I think if Bagley puts his mind to it, he can be a good defender.

What I noticed from his Duke film is that instead of going for the block, he was boxing out for the rebound as the player goes in for the shot.

I'm not sure if that was by design or not, but I think in the NBA he will need to go up and challenge the shots more.

His rebounding numbers may suffer a little, but his blocked shots should go up if coach tells him to protect the lane in the NBA. Players are not going to miss as much in the NBA if someone doesn't challenge them at the rim.

 

[Gguod]

His mindset seems great so thats a big positive. Most likely due to his lack of natural instincts and below average measurements he will never be a good defender but maybe by putting him in a switch all scheme he gets to rely more on his athletisism and less on his help defense iq/rotational instincts.

 

[EIM86]

I'm riding on that his grandfather was also a pro so he knows the proper work ethic to stay in the league.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

It's interesting. I felt a lot of knocks on Ayton were unfair because I watched a lot of their games. I loathe Duke so let's just leave it at that. If he wants to play with a chip on his shoulder and it motivates him to go next level, we've seen that pay dividends before.

 

[Joshoua]

I think if Bagley puts his mind to it, he can be a good defender.

What I noticed from his Duke film is that instead of going for the block, he was boxing out for the rebound as the player goes in for the shot.

I'm not sure if that was by design or not, but I think in the NBA he will need to go up and challenge the shots more.

His rebounding numbers may suffer a little, but his blocked shots should go up if coach tells him to protect the lane in the NBA. Players are not going to miss as much in the NBA if someone doesn't challenge them at the rim.

That’s the kevin love let me get rebounding stats play, hurts the team but looks good on the box scores

 

[ockingsfan]

That’s the kevin love let me get rebounding stats play, hurts the team but looks good on the box scores

Yes, possibly. Or it could be that coach told Wendell carter to be the shot blocker and for Bagley to concentrate on getting the rebounds.

Two bigs going for blocks at the same time often results in a foul. Also, Duke played a lot of zone defense.

I think if coach Joeger tells him to challenge every shot, he can become a better shot blocker.

 

[Telemachus]

It is always hard to judge a player defensively in college for various reasons. The main one being that most of them played very basic defense in HS. The other is if they play a zone. I mentioned before one of the main reason I felt Bagley looked lost many times on defense (he improved btw). He has played his whole life defending from the paint. This year he rarely played defense there (was either Carter or Bolton). That changes all your reactions on defense and what you have to be aware of. It is like a shortstop moving over to 2nd base. Would seem simple on the surface, but changes your throws, how you attack ground balls, when to be the cutoff man and and how the ball spins coming off the bat. It takes time to adjust.

 

[Sactown ExPat]

Also, Duke’s guards were hot trash on defense, and when the guards are terrible they make the big men look abominable. Having said that, Carter clearly had the better intincts of the two, but as noted above that could also be down to having the simpler reads.

 

[gunks]

It's super rare for rookies to be a plus on the defensive end, so Marv gets a pass from me next season.

But he absolutely needs to be at least solid on that end down the line. Even 20/10 bigs are pretty useless if they suck at defense.

This is what's scariest about the pick. I actually think he'll continue to develop that face up game and shooting. But man, if he can never defend? That would be baaaaad.

We'll see in 3 years or so. If there's anything I've learned as a Kings fan, it's that patience is a virtue!

 

[kingsboi]

I'm not worried about his defense from the bat...I want to see how he helps the Kings' dreadful offense before I start worrying about him being a capable defender. If he is a put back and lob type of offensive player, the Kings are in trouble.

 

[The_Jamal]

Bagley being bad on defense was never a concern for me long-term. First, all young players are bad on defense with very, very, very, very few exceptions. It takes a ton of time and film study to really adjust to how to become an NBA defender. So even JJJ/Bamba and other guys touted as "defensive superstars" are going to face a big adjustment at the NBA level and probably struggle early.

For me, Bagley's top 1% athleticism and lateral quickness, energy and overall work ethic are more important factors to him developing as a defender than what he showed last year at Duke. I have all the confidence in the world that we're going to see a concentrated effort for him to improve as a defender and let his elite athleticism take over. In theory, he's the "unicorn" type big man defender who has the quickness to stay with wings on the defensive end. Just got to be patient

 

[sactowndog]

His mindset seems great so thats a big positive. Most likely due to his lack of natural instincts and below average measurements he will never be a good defender but maybe by putting him in a switch all scheme he gets to rely more on his athletisism and less on his help defense iq/rotational instincts.

Given we have Giles who is longer Bagley will play the perimeter 4 players on Defense for us also.

Bagley’s defensive tape was bad. That is a fact. But I think a couple things have to be kept in mind.
1) he hadn’t played much perimeter defense previously. So the role was new to him.
2) he arrived at Duke in September. Most college players come in early and learn the system and their role over the summer. So he missed a critical time
3) he was playing with 4 other freshman who were unlikely able to help him learn his role.

I think these mitigating factors are reason for hope regarding his perimeter defense.

 

[Tetsujin]

It's super rare for rookies to be a plus on the defensive end, so Marv gets a pass from me next season.

But he absolutely needs to be at least solid on that end down the line. Even 20/10 bigs are pretty useless if they suck at defense.

This is what's scariest about the pick. I actually think he'll continue to develop that face up game and shooting. But man, if he can never defend? That would be baaaaad.

We'll see in 3 years or so. If there's anything I've learned as a Kings fan, it's that patience is a virtue!

One thing that's ground my gears over the past couple fo days is how this is apparently a concern for Bagley but it wasn't a concern for Luka for some reason.

 

[Gguod]

One thing that's ground my gears over the past couple fo days is how this is apparently a concern for Bagley but it wasn't a concern for Luka for some reason.

With big men, defense is lot more important than with guards or wings. Bagley thread was full of discussion about the subject

 

[Tetsujin]

With big men, defense is lot more important than with guards or wings. Bagley thread was full of discussion about the subject

While that may have been true before, in the modern NBA where more and more dudes are just pulling up from twenty feet away, I feel like defense on the wing may be more important than ever before. If we're going to make the argument that player X has the skill set tailored for the future of basketball, we must also acknowledge that skill Y might not be valued in the same way as before.

In no way am I saying that interior defense isn't important but I feel like it maybe less of a be-all-end-all than before, especially when a player as prone to bad interior defense as Ayton is taken as the consensus number one pick.

 

[Gguod]

While that may have been true before, in the modern NBA where more and more dudes are just pulling up from twenty feet away, I feel like defense on the wing may be more important than ever before. If we're going to make the argument that player X has the skill set tailored for the future of basketball, we must also acknowledge that skill Y might not be valued in the same way as before.

In no way am I saying that interior defense isn't important but I feel like it maybe less of a be-all-end-all than before, especially when a player as prone to bad interior defense as Ayton is taken as the consensus number one pick.

Statistically its very important even today. Defense for big men isnt just post defense. Its a lot more help defense, iq in rotations, guarding the pick n roll, switching. Bad defending centers have very bad defensive rpm numbers and when you look at statistically good defenses, you dont see a lot of bad defending big men starting on those. Center alone has a lot bigger impact on defense than a single wing or guard

 

[Chupacabra]

I cant wait to look like a fool for not liking this pick. I have my doubts about the assessment of his defensive ability as well. Some folks have an unachievable standard for what constitutes a good defender. Ive read a comment on here that said Bagley "doesnt care about defense." Come on

 

[sactowndog]

It is always hard to judge a player defensively in college for various reasons. The main one being that most of them played very basic defense in HS. The other is if they play a zone. I mentioned before one of the main reason I felt Bagley looked lost many times on defense (he improved btw). He has played his whole life defending from the paint. This year he rarely played defense there (was either Carter or Bolton). That changes all your reactions on defense and what you have to be aware of. It is like a shortstop moving over to 2nd base. Would seem simple on the surface, but changes your throws, how you attack ground balls, when to be the cutoff man and and how the ball spins coming off the bat. It takes time to adjust.

Correct and it’s even harder if you start in September and miss all of summer ball.

 

[jcassio]

His mindset seems great so thats a big positive. Most likely due to his lack of natural instincts and below average measurements he will never be a good defender but maybe by putting him in a switch all scheme he gets to rely more on his athletisism and less on his help defense iq/rotational instincts.

Christ, man. Can you please tone down the exaggerated self-confidence that you feel you always have to project? You have a lot of insight to offer, so I value you as a Kingsfan. But it's annoying the way you act as though your word is THE word. For example, when you say "he will never be a good defender," how about just adding "I don't think..." ? Or does that show too much weakness in your mind?

 

[Gguod]

Christ, man. Can you please tone down the exaggerated self-confidence that you feel you always have to project? You have a lot of insight to offer, so I value you as a Kingsfan. But it's annoying the way you act as though your word is THE word. For example, when you say "he will never be a good defender," how about just adding "I don't think..." ? Or does that show too much weakness in your mind?

Well I said most likely. It wasnt definitive. Also you can check if you want but I use phrases like "to me" and "imo" a lot for the exact reason that its just my opinion or my point of view so everyone can feel welcome to point out what they find wrong or illogical in the data/arguments I base my opinion on.

 

[Amit149]

While that may have been true before, in the modern NBA where more and more dudes are just pulling up from twenty feet away, I feel like defense on the wing may be more important than ever before. If we're going to make the argument that player X has the skill set tailored for the future of basketball, we must also acknowledge that skill Y might not be valued in the same way as before.

In no way am I saying that interior defense isn't important but I feel like it maybe less of a be-all-end-all than before, especially when a player as prone to bad interior defense as Ayton is taken as the consensus number one pick.

Outside the fact that I think that Doncic is currently a better defender for his position, he is a very vesatile player so you would have much more ways to handle is defensive shortcomings.

Unless Bagley will drastically change the way he plays he is limited to the 4-5 positions.
He hasn't shown any rim-protection skills which really limits the possibility to play him as a C and in the modern NBA, unless he develop his shooting and passing, he will be problematic as a PF.

If he was viewed as purely a forward I think people would be less worried about his defense but his shooting is suspect (he has a good chance to become a decent shooter - he shoot a good % last year on a very limited # of attempts, but his poor FT% is worrisome).

 

[roasthawg]

Outside the fact that I think that Doncic is currently a better defender for his position, he is a very vesatile player so you would have much more ways to handle is defensive shortcomings.

Unless Bagley will drastically change the way he plays he is limited to the 4-5 positions.
He hasn't shown any rim-protection skills which really limits the possibility to play him as a C and in the modern NBA, unless he develop his shooting and passing, he will be problematic as a PF.

If he was viewed as purely a forward I think people would be less worried about his defense but his shooting is suspect (he has a good chance to become a decent shooter - he shoot a good % last year on a very limited # of attempts, but his poor FT% is worrisome).

He is a power forward. In the mold of Amare/Malone/Griffin I think. Somewhere along those lines. He'll play center for spurts but the majority of his NBA minutes will clearly be at the four. Plenty of all star power forwards that aren't lights out from three.

 

[Amit149]

He is a power forward. In the mold of Amare/Malone/Griffin I think. Somewhere along those lines. He'll play center for spurts but the majority of his NBA minutes will clearly be at the four. Plenty of all star power forwards that aren't lights out from three.

I think you are probably right, but PF's without a good 3PT shot aren't trending very well in the modern NBA.
Look at a guy like Aaron Gordon for example - freak athlete with great defensive potential, yet his value is very much tied to his shooting.

I really like the Amar'e comp for Bagley, but I'm not sure just how good that is in todays NBA.
I thinks his floor is pretty high and he will put up numbers regardless but his efficiency is very much tied to whether he can shoot well or develop as a rim-protector.

 

[roasthawg]

I think you are probably right, but PF's without a good 3PT shot aren't trending very well in the modern NBA.
Look at a guy like Aaron Gordon for example - freak athlete with great defensive potential, yet his value is very much tied to his shooting.

I really like the Amar'e comp for Bagley, but I'm not sure just how good that is in todays NBA.
I thinks his floor is pretty high and he will put up numbers regardless but his efficiency is very much tied to whether he can shoot well or develop as a rim-protector.

Gordon averaged 9 fewer points on only 3 fewer fga per game in college than bagley did. Point being bagley is on another level altogether offensively than Gordon was. If you're looking for a current comp the best might be Griffen.... Far from perfect but you'll get a lot of the same pros and cons I think.

 

[Amit149]

Gordon averaged 9 fewer points on only 3 fewer fga per game in college than bagley did. Point being bagley is on another level altogether offensively than Gordon was. If you're looking for a current comp the best might be Griffen.... Far from perfect but you'll get a lot of the same pros and cons I think.

I didn't use Gordon as a comp but as a way to show the emphasis on shooting for current youg PF's (like you said - Bagley is a far superior on the offensive end and I would say that Gordon has a clear advantage as a defender).

Griffin is somewhat similar, though a far superior passer and all-around player when drafted imo.