An at-length discussion about... um, length (split from the [Game] thread)

[sactowndog]

The slander of DeMar DeRozan is perplexing. Comparing a 6-time All Star, 3-time All NBA, future Hall of Famer with Harrison Barnes? Even at this advanced stage of his career, DDR is good enough to be a #1 option. Meanwhile, the last time HB was asked to be a #1 option, he was traded mid-game for Justin Jackson and a decrepit Zach Randolph. I love the Black Falcon but he is not in the same tier. The disrespect of the Kings in the media is nothing new. Thankfully, DDR gets the respect on the court from the refs and his peers. That's more important.

Monte addressed a key weakness, namely the lack of a true go-to player other than Fox. DDR is durable, has faced every defense known to man as a #1 option throughout his career. He will keep keep things afloat even if Fox misses some games. On top of it, he is clutch af. What more are people expecting?

the issue was more defensively and length that had people reacting. But Barnes was not as long as people think because he had super wide shoulders that made his wingspan long but not his Standing reach.

Barnes vs DeRosan
Wingspan: 6’ 11” vs 6’ 9”
Standing reach: 8’ 5.5” vs. 8’ 6.5”

that is why the length of Barnes is somewhat mythical and his defensive ability overstated.

now before I lose my rep I will point out Devin Carter is built very much like Barnes. I will compare him with Fox and Keon

Fox vs Carter vs Keon
Wingspan: 6’ 6.5” vs 6’ 8.75” vs 6’ 8.5
Standing Reach: 8’ 4” vs 8’ 2” vs 8’ 6”

Carter/Barnes type measurements typically don’t translate into the NBA lock down defenders and Barnes and ultimately Carter’s defensive ability is and will be overstated.

 

[The_Jamal]

the issue was more defensively and length that had people reacting. But Barnes was not as long as people think because he had super wide shoulders that made his wingspan long but not his Standing reach.

Barnes vs DeRosan
Wingspan: 6’ 11” vs 6’ 9”
Standing reach: 8’ 5.5” vs. 8’ 6.5”

that is why the length of Barnes is somewhat mythical and his defensive ability overstated.

now before I lose my rep I will point out Devin Carter is built very much like Barnes. I will compare him with Fox and Keon

Fox vs Carter vs Keon
Wingspan: 6’ 6.5” vs 6’ 8.75” vs 6’ 8.5
Standing Reach: 8’ 4” vs 8’ 2” vs 8’ 6”

Carter/Barnes type measurements typically don’t translate into the NBA lock down defenders and Barnes and ultimately Carter’s defensive ability is and will be overstated.

You're neglecting the fact that Carter had the best combine and athletic testing of any prospect in the draft. Dude is a freak athlete with incredible quickness and timing to contest shots. I also don't think that he'd be such an incredible rebounding guard if his standing reach was a problem. He had a highlight of him literally blocking a 3pt shooter behind a screener. It'd be much more of a shock if he weren't an elite defender than if he is

 

[sactowndog]

You're neglecting the fact that Carter had the best combine and athletic testing of any prospect in the draft. Dude is a freak athlete with incredible quickness and timing to contest shots. I also don't think that he'd be such an incredible rebounding guard if his standing reach was a problem. He had a highlight of him literally blocking a 3pt shooter behind a screener. It'd be much more of a shock if he weren't an elite defender than if he is

we shall see. We shall know in due time

 

[SacTownKid]

Yeh Keon was outstanding. The defensive intensity is exactly what we need in his minutes.

I do wonder how they will integrate Carter into this mix when the time comes. Obviously nothing to worry about now as that is a couple months away but the idea of Ellis and Carter on the court at the same time is super intriguing

Yeah, I think Carter finally gives Brown the ability to run actual Warriors style G lineups. First thing this season Brown was trying to run 3 playmakers in there, it's clearly something he desires. In the end, on paper, it's a matter of time before Carter pushes other options out of his way if he's legit. He's too perfect a fit and potentially the very last need filler since now the Kings have that iso scoring with DeRozan. The Kings need physicality, defense, and athletic ability. Bingo, you have your mix. Obviously we have to see what shakes out, any young player could bust, but Fox, Carter, DDR, Keegan, and Domas is the most balanced lineup you could ever throw out there if he's for real. Initially, we know rookies either have to be needed or really show out. The possibilities are certainly there for him. In the end I think Monte is looking at sooner than later for his new mix and this combo might be it.

 

[SacTownKid]

the issue was more defensively and length that had people reacting. But Barnes was not as long as people think because he had super wide shoulders that made his wingspan long but not his Standing reach.

Barnes vs DeRosan
Wingspan: 6’ 11” vs 6’ 9”
Standing reach: 8’ 5.5” vs. 8’ 6.5”

that is why the length of Barnes is somewhat mythical and his defensive ability overstated.

now before I lose my rep I will point out Devin Carter is built very much like Barnes. I will compare him with Fox and Keon

Fox vs Carter vs Keon
Wingspan: 6’ 6.5” vs 6’ 8.75” vs 6’ 8.5
Standing Reach: 8’ 4” vs 8’ 2” vs 8’ 6”

Carter/Barnes type measurements typically don’t translate into the NBA lock down defenders and Barnes and ultimately Carter’s defensive ability is and will be overstated.

Just a warning, don't always take combine measurements as gospel. Also don't overrate the power of 2 inches, lol. Scottie Barnes was measured 2+ inches shorter in wingspan at the combine, and according to P3 Carter was measured at 6'10". Again though, an inch isn't doing anything anyway. Length is functional and Carter clearly has that functional length. Hakeem wasn't the longest player by any means, but he was one of the best shotblockers because of timing and quick 2nd jumping ability.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Just a warning, don't always take combine measurements as gospel. Also don't overrate the power of 2 inches, lol. Scottie Barnes was measured 2+ inches shorter in wingspan at the combine, and according to P3 Carter was measured at 6'10". Again though, an inch isn't doing anything anyway. Length is functional and Carter clearly has that functional length. Hakeem wasn't the longest player by any means, but he was one of the best shotblockers because of timing and quick 2nd jumping ability.

I think another thing we do is fall back on the Davion experience who was billed as an elite defender who turned out to be an incredible on the ball dawg who struggled in off ball and team defense (he admitted this himself). Carter, on the other hand was an incredible collegiate off ball defender who also did a great job navigating screens for on ball defense.

I think people think great defense in the NBA is guys shutting their man down but the reality is good offense beats good defense. The best you can do is contest everything, wear them out and clog passing/driving lanes while mixing in a block or steal once in awhile.

 

[dude12]

Weren’t other teams and talking heads saying Devin Carter was the steal of the draft for the Kings? That would be a lot of people being wrong. Carter is going to be good

 

[SacTownKid]

I think another thing we do is fall back on the Davion experience who was billed as an elite defender who turned out to be an incredible on the ball dawg who struggled in off ball and team defense (he admitted this himself). Carter, on the other hand was an incredible collegiate off ball defender who also did a great job navigating screens for on ball defense.

I think people think great defense in the NBA is guys shutting their man down but the reality is good offense beats good defense. The best you can do is contest everything, wear them out and clog passing/driving lanes while mixing in a block or steal once in awhile.

Exactly, and if Davion had the size and athletic ability of Carter, he's a different beast altogether. The only concern I saw with Carter coming out is a team thinking he's a franchise PG. He has potential to be that, not sure it would be wise to even try and turn him into that, in the end he looks like a creating combo/SG through and through.

 

[The_Jamal]

Exactly, and if Davion had the size and athletic ability of Carter, he's a different beast altogether. The only concern I saw with Carter coming out is a team thinking he's a franchise PG. He has potential to be that, not sure it would be wise to even try and turn him into that, in the end he looks like a creating combo/SG through and through.

Develop him as Derrick White with ridiculous athleticism and profit. I believe the Spurs tried to make White a playmaker too and he really started to take off once he got moved off-ball in a secondary creator role

 

[funkykingston]

Develop him as Derrick White with ridiculous athleticism and profit. I believe the Spurs tried to make White a playmaker too and he really started to take off once he got moved off-ball in a secondary creator role

That's been my thought as well. White isn't a perfect comp for Carter, but they should play pretty similar roles. Per combine measurements White was an inch taller but Carter has an inch more wingspan and both were about the same weight (193 lbs for Devin vs 189 for Derrick) and age (22.26 years old for Carter vs 22.96 for White) and Carter tested slightly better athletically across the board, and especially with standing vert (35.0" vs 31.0") and max vert (42.0" vs 36.5").

The blueprint is there for this type of guard to be successful in the NBA and with Fox, Domas, Sabonis, even Huerter and Ellis acting as playmakers, there's zero reason to put Devin on ball. Let him get after guys defensively and find his spots on offense.

 

[sactowndog]

That's been my thought as well. White isn't a perfect comp for Carter, but they should play pretty similar roles. Per combine measurements White was an inch taller but Carter has an inch more wingspan and both were about the same weight (193 lbs for Devin vs 189 for Derrick) and age (22.26 years old for Carter vs 22.96 for White) and Carter tested slightly better athletically across the board, and especially with standing vert (35.0" vs 31.0") and max vert (42.0" vs 36.5").

The blueprint is there for this type of guard to be successful in the NBA and with Fox, Domas, Sabonis, even Huerter and Ellis acting as playmakers, there's zero reason to put Devin on ball. Let him get after guys defensively and find his spots on offense.

Carter has a significantly shorter standing reach.
White 8’5.5
Carter 8’2

whether you think the standing vert can make up for it is a fair debate. I think his need to jump makes him vulnerable to pump fakes and he will not be as effective on defense as some people project. But that is my opinion and we shall see in due time.

 

[Jdbraver137]

Carter has a significantly shorter standing reach.
White 8’5.5
Carter 8’2

whether you think the standing vert can make up for it is a far debate. I think his need to jump makes him vulnerable to pump fakes and he will not be as effective on defense as some people project. But that is my opinion and we shall see in due time.

You don’t jump to block a jump shooter.I’m pretty sure he has been taught that. He isn’t blocking shots. I think you are misguided. He is disrupting passing lanes and running opponents off the 3pt line. He has plenty of size to do that. It’s more about intensity

 

[The_Jamal]

Carter has a significantly shorter standing reach.
White 8’5.5
Carter 8’2

whether you think the standing vert can make up for it is a far debate. I think his need to jump makes him vulnerable to pump fakes and he will not be as effective on defense as some people project. But that is my opinion and we shall see in due time.

Actually not trolling.

Where is this standing reach importance coming from? Why do you think it's more important than wingspan, which seems pretty universally accepted as being an important physical trait among a lot of basketball guys. Standing Reach importance I've only ever really seen matter with bigs and rim protectors. Which makes obvious sense because they're jumping straight up and down contesting shots.

 

[Tetsujin]

Actually not trolling.

Where is this standing reach importance coming from? Why do you think it's more important than wingspan, which seems pretty universally accepted as being an important physical trait among a lot of basketball guys. Standing Reach importance I've only ever really seen matter with bigs and rim protectors. Which makes obvious sense because they're jumping straight up and down contesting shots.

Dude’s kid plays water polo. Where do you think the standing reach importance is coming from?

 

[sactowndog]

You don’t jump to block a jump shooter.I’m pretty sure he has been taught that. He isn’t blocking shots. I think you are misguided. He is disrupting passing lanes and running opponents off the 3pt line. He has plenty of size to do that. It’s more about intensity

well with his standing reach a number of players are going to just shoot over him without having a hand in their face. If you are 6’ 6” it’s only about 22” to get your eyes over the top of his hand.

 

[SacTownKid]

Actually not trolling.

Where is this standing reach importance coming from? Why do you think it's more important than wingspan, which seems pretty universally accepted as being an important physical trait among a lot of basketball guys. Standing Reach importance I've only ever really seen matter with bigs and rim protectors. Which makes obvious sense because they're jumping straight up and down contesting shots.

And Carter has proven he defends vertically very well. In fact, some prognosticators said he's one of the best they've seen. It might not translate but really, this is a few inches, lol. If it's even accurate of course. Defending vertically is a combination of leaping ability, timing, length, and quickness. So many times people on this board have pointed out some of the best NBA defenders currently with those exact measurements practically, haha.

 

[SacTownKid]

well with his standing reach a number of players are going to just shoot over him without having a hand in their face. If you are 6’ 6” it’s only about 22” to get your eyes over the top of his hand.

Seriously, watch this. Not that anyone is denying players a foot taller don't have an advantage but some of these challenges are on bigs. The real thing about him is the ability to absorb contact. That's where G's usually suffer and where you have to worry with players playing up.

 

[sactowndog]

Actually not trolling.

Where is this standing reach importance coming from? Why do you think it's more important than wingspan, which seems pretty universally accepted as being an important physical trait among a lot of basketball guys. Standing Reach importance I've only ever really seen matter with bigs and rim protectors. Which makes obvious sense because they're jumping straight up and down contesting shots.

It’s the other measure of length. I have heard it on a number of analytic stuff. And I don’t think it is more important, I think it is as important. It matters in terms of rim protection but also in closing out.

And when you think about it, it makes sense. As you yourself said you often don’t jump when closing out on jump shooters but you do want to put a hand up in their face ideally. The higher the standing reach the more players you can disrupt their line of site to the basket.

one of the advantages Durant has is he can rise up and shoot and a small subset of guys can get a hand in his face so it’s literally like shooting over a chair. So as a defensive player the more people you can put your hands in their face and disrupt their shot the lower the opponents percentages.

Using Davion as an example he struggled on close outs because guys would literally rise up and shoot over him like they were shooting a warm up drill. At 8’ 0.5” standing reach versus Herb Jones 8’ 10” is 9.5 inches of delta. That’s a lot. Carter is only 8’ 2” which is one of the smaller ones in the league and it is going to limit who he can guard effectively in my opinion just like it did Davion.

If I am correct to make the same mistake twice is super poor judgement on the part of Monte.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Using Davion as an example he struggled on close outs because guys would literally rise up and shoot over him like they were shooting a warm up drill. At 8’ 0.5” standing reach versus Herb Jones 8’ 10” is 9.5 inches of delta. That’s a lot. Carter is only 8’ 2” which is one of the smaller ones in the league and it is going to limit who he can guard effectively in my opinion just like it did Davion.

Yet in his best season (as a senior) Herb Jones recorded 37 blocks and 57 steals. In Carter's last year he recorded 32 blocks and 58 steals. Both guys did it in 33 games. Those numbers are damn close to each other despite Jones' apparent 8 inch delta in standing reach. And this is not a knock on Jones, who is a great defensive player, but in the end, great defensive players get it done. Carter obviously got it done, so I'm not worried about his size.

Obviously you would rather have bigger than smaller all things being equal, but I think size gets overrated relative to talent far too often. If you're looking at a group of kids who are projects, take the tallest, longest, most athletic one. If you're looking at group of players who are more or less finished projects, take the one who is the most talented.

 

[sactowndog]

It isn't about steals or blocks. Yes those are nice but it is about getting your hand in the face of a jump shooter and disrupting their shot. Here is a color coded chart with Davion, Carter, Keon, and Keegan. I started with opponents 6'4" and up (no one is arguing about point guards) and lift of their shot from 12 - 21 inches. I subtracted 2 inches to get given their standing reach who could put their hands in front of the shooters eyes when shooting. BTW Durant is in the white space which is one reason he is such a good shooter.

 

[sactowndog]

Yet in his best season (as a senior) Herb Jones recorded 37 blocks and 57 steals. In Carter's last year he recorded 32 blocks and 58 steals. Both guys did it in 33 games. Those numbers are damn close to each other despite Jones' apparent 8 inch delta in standing reach. And this is not a knock on Jones, who is a great defensive player, but in the end, great defensive players get it done. Carter obviously got it done, so I'm not worried about his size.

Obviously you would rather have bigger than smaller all things being equal, but I think size gets overrated relative to talent far too often. If you're looking at a group of kids who are projects, take the tallest, longest, most athletic one. If you're looking at group of players who are more or less finished projects, take the one who is the most talented.

The other point is as you get to those levels the differences between being good and great gets smaller and smaller.

if you are getting a player for defensive purposes being able to get his hand in the face of 2/3rds of the leagues jump shooters versus 1/3 of the leagues jump shooters is a huge deal.

It’s why I maintain drafting Davion as a defensive player when you already had Haliburton and Fox was a dumb dumb draft pick. Drafting Carter with Fox and Monk is only marginally better. I did not particularly like either pick.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

The other point is as you get to those levels the differences between being good and great gets smaller and smaller.

if you are getting a player for defensive purposes being able to get his hand in the face of 2/3rds of the leagues jump shooters versus 1/3 of the leagues jump shooters is a huge deal.

It’s why I maintain drafting Davion as a defensive player when you already had Haliburton and Monk was a dumb dumb draft pick. Drafting Carter with Fox and Monk is only marginally better. I did not particularly like either pick.

they didnt have monk, when they drafted mitchell

 

[SacTownKid]

It isn't about steals or blocks. Yes those are nice but it is about getting your hand in the face of a jump shooter and disrupting their shot. Here is a color coded chart with Davion, Carter, Keon, and Keegan. I started with opponents 6'4" and up (no one is arguing about point guards) and lift of their shot from 12 - 21 inches. I subtracted 2 inches to get given their standing reach who could put their hands in front of the shooters eyes when shooting. BTW Durant is in the white space which is one reason he is such a good shooter. View attachment 12873

Where did you get lift on players shots? Some of the most un-guardable shooters don't hit because of lift, size, or length, they hit because of quickness or mobility. If size mattered as an end all be all Curry wouldn't be who he is. It's all dependent on the player. I don't think anyone is saying any guard is going to plug someone like Durants shot. But guess what? Nobody else does either. If you want Durant to suffer offensively, you get physical with him and ride him as he's trying to navigate, certainly not stand back and wait to put a hand up.

 

[hrdboild]

It isn't about steals or blocks. Yes those are nice but it is about getting your hand in the face of a jump shooter and disrupting their shot. Here is a color coded chart with Davion, Carter, Keon, and Keegan. I started with opponents 6'4" and up (no one is arguing about point guards) and lift of their shot from 12 - 21 inches. I subtracted 2 inches to get given their standing reach who could put their hands in front of the shooters eyes when shooting. BTW Durant is in the white space which is one reason he is such a good shooter. View attachment 12873

This seems to me a lot like you're assuming your own conclusion and working backwards from there.

 

[SacTownKid]

This seems to me a lot like you're assuming your own conclusion and working backwards from there.

And that there is a one size fits all to perimeter defense. Yet, completely ignores examples like Bruce Brown, Lu Dort, Jae Crower, among plenty of others all who had similar features as Carter and all who were considered very good to top notch defenders at one point or another.

 

[sactowndog]

they didnt have monk, when they drafted mitchell

Pretty sure you knew I meant Fox but will change it.

 

[sactowndog]

This seems to me a lot like you're assuming your own conclusion and working backwards from there.

the data is in front of you. And I stated drafting Davion was dumb from day 1 and that he had zero chance of guarding SF’s. Many here agreed with Monte he could guard SF’s which was ridiculous.

 

[sactowndog]

At @Capt. Factorial nice title

 

[The_Jamal]

Where did you get lift on players shots? Some of the most un-guardable shooters don't hit because of lift, size, or length, they hit because of quickness or mobility. If size mattered as an end all be all Curry wouldn't be who he is. It's all dependent on the player. I don't think anyone is saying any guard is going to plug someone like Durants shot. But guess what? Nobody else does either. If you want Durant to suffer offensively, you get physical with him and ride him as he's trying to navigate, certainly not stand back and wait to put a hand up.

I sorta don't think a hand in a shooters face really matters all that much anymore with how freaking good everyone is now. I feel like it's more taking away their space, forcing them to rush, getting a quick close out matters more to affecting a players shot than a wacky inflatable tube man arms in a shooters vision. There's an obvious "minimum" wingspan/length threshold, but you also need those other things too. It's what's made Keon pop on defense thus far; he's incredible at staying on a defenders hip, taking away space, flipping his hips on a dime, getting his hands involved for a strip, being insanely quick on the contest.

Steph is obviously a 1/1 shooter, but when he finds his rhythm, it doesn't matter if Wemby is contesting his shot. You only beat Steph by forcing him out of his routine.

 

[hrdboild]

the data is in front of you. And I stated drafting Davion was dumb from day 1 and that he had zero chance of guarding SF’s. Many here agreed with Monte he could guard SF’s which was ridiculous.

...yes the data made up of physical measurements which was all available on draft day and all says exactly nothing other than how high off the ground a player can reach with his fingertips while standing with his toes on the ground. Riveting.

For all you know I may have the standing reach of a... very tall person ... but if I don't know how to close out on a shooter without fouling, where my help defense is so I can cheat to one side or the other to force them baseline or middle, and how to identify a pump fake and recover without taking myself out of the play then me and my taradactyl wingspan won't get out of the G League. It's hard for me to take your use of this data seriously when you completely ignore the mental aspect of defense which is arguably more significant than any physical attribute.