Amick: “the writing is on the wall” regarding potential Fox trade

[SacTownKid]

I don’t want to trade fox I thought the conversation is if that point comes this summer I’d rather keep him but if he wants out then you have to trade him



I highly doubt we’d get Herro, Jaime, then picks and Ware

I agree, assuming Jimmy doesn't stay I would think they aren't into starting over with just Bam and Fox. Teams that view Fox as a last piece are going to be like any other team trading for a star, they'll want to have a built in team ready and waiting.

Rozier/Ware/filler/2 future 1sts/2 2nds is probably realistic. For the Heat you'll likely have to take a young asset because their picks are a little more complicated whereas you can pretty much shop around within the cache of picks a team like the Rockets has.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

If Miami isn't willing to give up their two best young assets there are other teams that will make a better offer. I'm sorry but Herro sucks.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

I agree, assuming Jimmy doesn't stay I would think they aren't into starting over with just Bam and Fox. Teams that view Fox as a last piece are going to be like any other team trading for a star, they'll want to have a built in team ready and waiting.

Rozier/Ware/filler/2 future 1sts/2 2nds is probably realistic. For the Heat you'll likely have to take a young asset because their picks are a little more complicated whereas you can pretty much shop around within the cache of picks a team like the Rockets has.

If Herro isn’t in the deal then it has to be Ware, Jaime, and picks a lot of picks. The more ware plays you can see his potential he’s gonna be good he was stopping everything we were doing last game it was a sigh of relief when Bam came in

If Miami isn't willing to give up their two best young assets there are other teams that will make a better offer. I'm sorry but Herro sucks.

Saying Herro sucks disqualifies what you say earlier he’s clearly an all star talent you don’t wake up and put 20-5-5 for consecutive years

 

[iowamcnabb]

Matt George did a podcast a week or two ago with the Locked on Heat guy to discuss what a deal could look like and I thought he made a good point: if the guy we are trading you is going to be your new best player you don’t get to send us anything less than a haul. There will be 4 or 5 serious suitors, gotta pay up.

 

[SacTownKid]

If Herro isn’t in the deal then it has to be Ware, Jaime, and picks a lot of picks. The more ware plays you can see his potential he’s gonna be good he was stopping everything we were doing last game it was a sigh of relief when Bam came in

It depends on how something like this shook out but I would be surprised if the Heat did that. If you can get that package great. I mean, if Fox is like "hey, just send me somewhere" then you can build a market, but I would assume his people will have guidelines to follow and that almost invariably alters your value in trade. People can talk about what this guy got, or that guy, but if you get Siakam'd or even worse Butler'd that could drastically change things. It's a different reason but the same outcome as to why teams aren't just jumping at the chance to trade for Ingram. He wants a lot of money and a lot of teams aren't certain he's worth it. The issue for the Pels is those cards are out in the open and you'd have to be crazy to give equal value of youth/picks for a player like that. Siakam basically got expiring money and so so picks. Fox should get more but how much more? Ingram should get basically what Siakam got if even that because he just can't stay healthy. If the Kings are certain Fox wants out, then Monte just has to get what he can. Space/picks seems most reasonable at this point. Obviously you don't want to settle by the deadline at this juncture but Monte should know basically what his potential suitors look like at that point and then it's a 50/50 bet as to whether you're better or worse off come the offseason.

 

[SacTownKid]

Matt George did a podcast a week or two ago with the Locked on Heat guy to discuss what a deal could look like and I thought he made a good point: if the guy we are trading you is going to be your new best player you don’t get to send us anything less than a haul. There will be 4 or 5 serious suitors, gotta pay up.

Yeah, if that player is either locked in a deal or willing to say he's signing long term to that team for sure. Again, look at Siakam, once a team is over the barrel they're over the barrel. Harden didn't get jack all in young talent for the Rockets but they got a lot of draft capital which is pretty decent when you consider Harden also picked his landing spot. If Fox does the same it is what it is. We'll see what happens with Butler and apparently the Heat are fully prepped for Butler to stay on. Why? I think the Heat would be perfectly fine to make him miserable enough to decline his option. That's 50+ million off the books if he doesn't.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

It depends on how something like this shook out but I would be surprised if the Heat did that. If you can get that package great. I mean, if Fox is like "hey, just send me somewhere" then you can build a market, but I would assume his people will have guidelines to follow and that almost invariably alters your value in trade. People can talk about what this guy got, or that guy, but if you get Siakam'd or even worse Butler'd that could drastically change things. It's a different reason but the same outcome as to why teams aren't just jumping at the chance to trade for Ingram. He wants a lot of money and a lot of teams aren't certain he's worth it. The issue for the Pels is those cards are out in the open and you'd have to be crazy to give equal value of youth/picks for a player like that. Siakam basically got expiring money and so so picks. Fox should get more but how much more? Ingram should get basically what Siakam got if even that because he just can't stay healthy. If the Kings are certain Fox wants out, then Monte just has to get what he can. Space/picks seems most reasonable at this point. Obviously you don't want to settle by the deadline at this juncture but Monte should know basically what his potential suitors look like at that point and then it's a 50/50 bet as to whether you're better or worse off come the offseason.

Exactly this why I don’t get when people are throwing out outlandish offers thinking we’ll get that when we won’t. Fox will have a list probably 4-4 teams the hood thing is apparently teams like housing, San Antonio, and Miami will be on there and they all have good assets.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Yeah, if that player is either locked in a deal or willing to say he's signing long term to that team for sure. Again, look at Siakam, once a team is over the barrel they're over the barrel. Harden didn't get jack all in young talent for the Rockets but they got a lot of draft capital which is pretty decent when you consider Harden also picked his landing spot. If Fox does the same it is what it is. We'll see what happens with Butler and apparently the Heat are fully prepped for Butler to stay on. Why? I think the Heat would be perfectly fine to make him miserable enough to decline his option. That's 50+ million off the books if he doesn't.

I think your first sentence applies to Fox if he asks for a trade. Klutch would give us a list of 3-5 teams he would consider and we find the best deal among those. It’s not like we are going to send him to the Hornets.

as far as Harden goes, the young talent (Allen) went to Cleveland in that deal. I don’t know if they did that for salary reasons or what the deal was but he’s been all star caliber in Cleveland and I think he had one all star year in Brooklyn.

Yeh I don’t know what happens in Miami. It’s hard to imagine he declines it given the main reason he wants to go to Phoenix is they are willing to give him stupid money. What a mess over there, I hope no one bails them out.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Exactly this why I don’t get when people are throwing out outlandish offers thinking we’ll get that when we won’t. Fox will have a list probably 4-4 teams the hood thing is apparently teams like housing, San Antonio, and Miami will be on there and they all have good assets.

If you were the kings GM and you were trading your best player to Miami or Houston and he is going to be their best player, what kind of package are you saying yes to?

 

[Joshyjosh31]

If you were the kings GM and you were trading your best player to Miami or Houston and he is going to be their best player, what kind of package are you saying yes to?

Herro, Jaime, and two first
Reed, Smith, Landale, and a first

 

[kingsfan101]

This is a tough one, but given our roster, trading Fox probably makes the most sense.

We saw this story earlier when we had Tyrese. Monte showed that he has the guts to pull off a major trade, which fortunately worked well (for both teams). I feel that it's unfair to view that trade only in terms of Tyrese vs Domas. It also balanced out our roster and helped unlock Fox. So the returns were not only Domas, but also an elevated Fox.

Since then, Monte picked up three defensive minded guards in Davion, Keon, and Carter. Plus, we added Monk and Kevin. While Davion is not with us anymore, Keon's growth in particular, has made it possible to consider trading Fox.

Fox's presence will impact the growth of Keon and Carter. Carter may actually benefit from Fox's presence, but I think Keon has developed past that stage where he needs Fox to mentor him. Coupled with the fact that coaches will often tend to favor vets, Carter in particular is likely to be squeezed out of minutes.

Fox will bring the best haul. He can help bring in some valuable front court player, and also potentially draft picks to help with roster upgrades over the next few years. Obviously his loss will be felt, but Monk and Keon have shown that they can handle the load. It's not a small sample size either. Monk has been doing it for years, and Keon also has done it for close to half a season now (including his performance in the latter half of last season). With Carter showing promise, this is one position, where we can take a hit. Similar to the Tyrese trade, the value will not only be the returns we get for Fox, but the development path that may open up for Carter, and to a lesser extent, Keon. In fact, I have often wondered if Davion would have developed better if he didn't have Fox, Monk, and Kevin ahead of him.

A smaller factor is Deebo. With Fox out, we handed him the rock and asked him to go to work. That will be minimized if Fox is on the court. While there will be times when you want Fox to have the ball (think a PO game against the Lakers; with Bron guarding Rozan and Reaves guarding Fox), we are losing that aspect of Rozan's game most of the nights. Yes, I understand that he is not in our long term plans given his age, but for the near future, trading Fox will create a clear hierarchy for end of game situations.

 

[SacTownKid]

I think your first sentence applies to Fox if he asks for a trade. Klutch would give us a list of 3-5 teams he would consider and we find the best deal among those. It’s not like we are going to send him to the Hornets.

as far as Harden goes, the young talent (Allen) went to Cleveland in that deal. I don’t know if they did that for salary reasons or what the deal was but he’s been all star caliber in Cleveland and I think he had one all star year in Brooklyn.

Yeh I don’t know what happens in Miami. It’s hard to imagine he declines it given the main reason he wants to go to Phoenix is they are willing to give him stupid money. What a mess over there, I hope no one bails them out.

When Amick says the writing is on the wall that tells me he's saying that's basically a forgone conclusion it's going to happen unless he's wrong. As soon as any movement is made whether from Monte or not, it's over. This then becomes a process that most certainly will include Fox and his representatives.

 

[SacTownKid]

Herro, Jaime, and two first
Reed, Smith, Landale, and a first

And if they don't offer that?

 

[ockingsfan]

IMO, IF Monte and the Kings decide to move Fox, we will be in a very good position to actually become a better team, if we get the right players. PG is our deepest position and we have Monk or Devin Carter that could step right into the starting PG and the Kings would be fine.

If we can move Fox for some front court help, i.e. Fox for Jabari Smith, Tari Eason and 2 first rounders, we could become a very balanced and deep playoff team. Slide J Smith into the starting PF and Keegan back to his natural SF position and Eason becomes our defensive sub in the front court. Move DDR to SG or to sixth-man. Our team would be balanced and stacked 2 deep.

PF: J Smith / Lyles
SF: Keegan / Eason
C: Sabonis / Len
SG: Keon or DDR (6th man)
PG: Monk / Devin Carter

 

[Joshyjosh31]

And if they don't offer that?

Herro and two first
Reed, landale, and two firsts

This is the minimum I would take and they will for sure offer unless multiple stars become available this summer

 

[GWD]

With all this trade Fox noise, you know that Monte has had plenty of inquiries and offers already. Apparently, none of them are enticing enough. Some team is really going to have to throw a haul at the Kings to get it to happen. Maybe we have a mini-Ainge in the front office. Either that, or Monte has read the book "The Art of the Deal".

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Igoudala wasn't part of the Nuggets core, eh?

They traded him after one season; he couldn't have been part of their core.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Either way I don’t think this core ever sniffs a championship….i just want a fun entertaining and competitive team.

Define "competitive." Because, if your line for "competitive" is "championship contender," very few teams historically have been fun and also competitive. Like, the Hornets are "fun," but they're not competitive. The Cavaliers and the Thunder are competitive, but they're not "fun." Hell, when the Kings are all dialed in, and moving the ball and scrapping on defense, they're "fun." Competitive, though?

 

[Remi]

I have only one question for those who is up for trading Fox - what will happen if Monk will get injury? Or Deebo - who will replace with high quality the fox and injured person?

 

[TaxMan]

IMO, IF Monte and the Kings decide to move Fox, we will be in a very good position to actually become a better team, if we get the right players. PG is our deepest position and we have Monk or Devin Carter that could step right into the starting PG and the Kings would be fine.

If we can move Fox for some front court help, i.e. Fox for Jabari Smith, Tari Eason and 2 first rounders, we could become a very balanced and deep playoff team. Slide J Smith into the starting PF and Keegan back to his natural SF position and Eason becomes our defensive sub in the front court. Move DDR to SG or to sixth-man. Our team would be balanced and stacked 2 deep.

PF: J Smith / Lyles
SF: Keegan / Eason
C: Sabonis / Len
SG: Keon or DDR (6th man)
PG: Monk / Devin Carter

Funny because in theory this team looks an awful lot like the the current rockets (sitting in 2nd place). Solid accross the board. Monk/Keon/Keegan is similar talent wise in my opinion to Van Vleet/Brooks/Green. Sabonis a better version of Sengun, but similar players. So, it then begs the question...are we willing to potentially trade places with the Rockets? Probably a more competitive team overall, but a ceiling because you don't have a dynamic guard that is (arguably) that number one bucket getter you need in the playoffs.

 

[TaxMan]

Define "competitive." Because, if your line for "competitive" is "championship contender," very few teams historically have been fun and also competitive. Like, the Hornets are "fun," but they're not competitive. The Cavaliers and the Thunder are competitive, but they're not "fun." Hell, when the Kings are all dialed in, and moving the ball and scrapping on defense, they're "fun." Competitive, though?

Absent hitting on a generational talent, I don't believe a team in Sac will ever be a true title contender. Of course never say never, but is very unlikely. We likely have no shot at a generational talent unless we tank and get extremely lucky in the draft. You can say this about most teams, but a bigger issue with small market teams as it's clearly the only chance we have at a transcendent talent (.... counter arguments could be made for the Cavs and Thunder this year. I don't think the Cavs have a transcendent player... SGA probably is, but he did get to OKC through a very odd means historically).

A "fun" team can be a lot of things..... maybe better said as a team I can be proud of. A team with an identity. Personally, I wouldn't mind if we had a team of badass tough guys that are physical and lock teams down. May not be pretty optically as in a free flowing offense, but I could root for that and have a lot fun watching them. I can personally accept a middle of the road team that makes the playoffs every year but isn't a true title contender, as long as they can grab a piece of my heart. Of course, I'm still going to live and die by them, and be pissed off when they get knocked out of the playoffs, but that's the vast majority of every NBA fan.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

A "fun" team can be a lot of things..... maybe better said as a team I can be proud of. A team with an identity. Personally, I wouldn't mind if we had a team of badass tough guys that are physical and lock teams down. May not be pretty optically as in a free flowing offense, but I could root for that and have a lot fun watching them. I can personally accept a middle of the road team that makes the playoffs every year but isn't a true title contender, as long as they can grab a piece of my heart. Of course, I'm still going to live and die by them, and be pissed off when they get knocked out of the playoffs, but that's the vast majority of every NBA fan.

Do you not believe this core is capable of being that?

 

[TaxMan]

Do you not believe this core is capable of being that?

Sure... but I'm not sure what you and I are debating here... The last 5 games have been fun to watch. Before that not so much. If we keep Fox, he's happy to play here, and we're a competitive team, then I'm good with that for the next 3 to 5 years. However, I don't believe that's how things would play out with him at this point (clearly a guess on my part, but seems to align with Amick), so I'd be good with moving him for the most we can without having a complete rebuild scenario.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Absent hitting on a generational talent, I don't believe a team in Sac will ever be a true title contender. Of course never say never, but is very unlikely. We likely have no shot at a generational talent unless we tank and get extremely lucky in the draft. You can say this about most teams, but a bigger issue with small market teams as it's clearly the only chance we have at a transcendent talent (.... counter arguments could be made for the Cavs and Thunder this year. I don't think the Cavs have a transcendent player... SGA probably is, but he did get to OKC through a very odd means historically).

A "fun" team can be a lot of things..... maybe better said as a team I can be proud of. A team with an identity. Personally, I wouldn't mind if we had a team of badass tough guys that are physical and lock teams down. May not be pretty optically as in a free flowing offense, but I could root for that and have a lot fun watching them. I can personally accept a middle of the road team that makes the playoffs every year but isn't a true title contender, as long as they can grab a piece of my heart. Of course, I'm still going to live and die by them, and be pissed off when they get knocked out of the playoffs, but that's the vast majority of every NBA fan.

If you think about it though, the early 2000's King's teams didn't have a generational transcendent MVP candidate. They had a group of good players that had good chemistry and fit well around a couple All Star caliber players and were lead be a real good head coach.

This is what I want to see again

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Sure... but I'm not sure what you and I are debating here...

I'm not trying to debate anyone. I'm seeking understanding, that's it and that's all.

 

[TaxMan]

If you think about though, the early 2000's King's teams didn't have a generational transcendent MVP candidate. They had a group of good players that had good chemistry and fit well around a couple All Star caliber players and were lead be a real good head coach.

This is what I want to see again

Yeah... I thought of that also. Seems to fit in a little bit like the Cavs this year.

There are also so many differences between the CBA now vs. then, it's hard to get a feel for what's possible now. As a general point, looking historically at the teams that actually win the championship, it's overwhelmingly in the favor of the generational talent. Here's the list of champions since 1990. I count only a couple teams that didn't have that transcendent star: Celtics (24) and Pistons (04). Probably could argue a couple more, but not much (Toronto (19), Dallas (11)). Interestingly, I forgot about the Celtics last year (Tatum/Brown are an awesome duo, but not generational on their own), so maybe things are shifting in the landscape given the new CBA...


2023-24 — Boston Celtics def. Dallas Mavericks, 4-1

2022-23 — Denver Nuggets def. Miami Heat, 4-1

2021-22 — Golden State Warriors def. Boston Celtics, 4-2

2020-21 — Milwaukee Bucks def. Phoenix Suns, 4-2

2019-20 — Los Angeles Lakers def. Miami Heat, 4-2

2018-19 — Toronto Raptors def. Golden State Warriors, 4-2

2017-18 — Golden State Warriors def. Cleveland Cavaliers, 4-0

2016-17 — Golden State Warriors def. Cleveland Cavaliers, 4-1

2015-16 — Cleveland Cavaliers def. Golden State Warriors, 4-3

2014-15 — Golden State Warriors def. Cleveland Cavaliers, 4-2

2013-14 — San Antonio Spurs def. Miami Heat, 4-1

2012-13 — Miami Heat def. San Antonio Spurs, 4-3

2011-12 — Miami Heat def. Oklahoma City Thunder, 4-1

2010-11 — Dallas Mavericks def. Miami Heat, 4-2

2009-10 — Los Angeles Lakers def. Boston Celtics, 4-3

2008-09 — Los Angeles Lakers def. Orlando Magic, 4-1

2007-08 — Boston Celtics def. Los Angeles Lakers, 4-2

2006-07 — San Antonio Spurs def. Cleveland Cavaliers, 4-0

2005-06 — Miami Heat def. Dallas Mavericks, 4-2

2004-05 — San Antonio Spurs def. Detroit Pistons, 4-3

2003-04 — Detroit Pistons def. Los Angeles Lakers, 4-1

2002-03 — San Antonio Spurs def. New Jersey Nets, 4-2

2001-02 — Los Angeles Lakers def. New Jersey Nets, 4-0

2000-01 — Los Angeles Lakers def. Philadelphia 76ers, 4-1

1999-00 — Los Angeles Lakers def. Indiana Pacers, 4-2

1998-99 — San Antonio Spurs def. New York Knicks, 4-1

1997-98 — Chicago Bulls def. Utah Jazz, 4-2

1996-97 — Chicago Bulls def. Utah Jazz, 4-2

1995-96 — Chicago Bulls def. Seattle SuperSonics, 4-2

1994-95 — Houston Rockets def. Orlando Magic, 4-0

1993-94 — Houston Rockets def. New York Knicks, 4-3

1992-93 — Chicago Bulls def. Phoenix Suns, 4-2

1991-92 — Chicago Bulls def. Portland Trail Blazers, 4-2

1990-91 — Chicago Bulls def. Los Angeles Lakers, 4-1

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Saying Herro sucks disqualifies what you say earlier he’s clearly an all star talent you don’t wake up and put 20-5-5 for consecutive years

He makes 30m per year, plays below average defense, and has had enough up and down seasons that he could become a very high priced Kevin Huerter. There's a reason Miami spent 2 years trying to trade him. Literally the last thing this team needs.

 

[Spike]

He makes 30m per year, plays below average defense, and has had enough up and down seasons that he could become a very high priced Kevin Huerter. There's a reason Miami spent 2 years trying to trade him. Literally the last thing this team needs.

I'd definitely say that "he sucks" in the context of being the main piece coming back for Fox. If he's part of a greater package, then I'm willing to listen.

 

[NewArena]

I guess. Seems like wishful thinking from a lot of people that simply want to be right or look at past history. I know it can happen after what happened with Cousins, but i sincerely don’t think that’s where we’re headed this time.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I'd definitely say that "he sucks" in the context of being the main piece coming back for Fox. If he's part of a greater package, then I'm willing to listen.

yes that's what I mean. The Heat have 3 players that are interesting and not a lot of draft capital. Herro is a guy that I guess helps make the salaries work, and if they take back Huerter and we still can get JJJ and Ware, ok I'm listening. Although if we have Monk, Keegan, Keon, Carter, 2 more years of DDR and Jacquez Jr. I'm still probably looking for another deal to move Herro.