Withey was Available in the Second Round

#1
McLemore was a great pick at number 7. He doesn't handle the ball well but has all the other skills. I hope his personal history doesn't bite the Kings in the behind with players like Cousins for role models.

The Kings could have had Withey from Kansas, in the second round, a proven shot blocker with a decent offensive game. The Kings have a logjam at the guard position. Two or three players need to go.

The team has shown lots of offensive firepower in the second half of last season. The defense is way behind the offense. A shot blocker was available, but the Kings took another guard which is confounding. Seemed like a lost opportunity. What do you think?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#3
What do I think? In simple terms, much ado about nothing. I honestly believe the front office has their sights set higher than Withey. It's June 28. Give things a chance to come to fruition before you decide a pick was disastrous.
 
#4
McLemore was a great pick at number 7. He doesn't handle the ball well but has all the other skills. I hope his personal history doesn't bite the Kings in the behind with players like Cousins for role models.

The Kings could have had Withey from Kansas, in the second round, a proven shot blocker with a decent offensive game. The Kings have a logjam at the guard position. Two or three players need to go.

The team has shown lots of offensive firepower in the second half of last season. The defense is way behind the offense. A shot blocker was available, but the Kings took another guard which is confounding. Seemed like a lost opportunity. What do you think?
i find myself in a rare agreement with you. i don't care if mccallum was considered the "better prospect" by the kings FO or anyone else. they'd have to move a glut of guards just to make room for him on the bench, much less get him any playing time. and it's no guarantee that the kings will be able to move those guards to begin with, outside of amnesty and waiver. the pick also paves the way for toney douglas to walk without so much as an offer from the kings, and he is perhaps the only defensively-oriented piece on the roster. i just don't see where mccallum fits, where he gets minutes, or what the point is, except to stash him in the D-league for... what? a later date? when there was a shot-blocker available that you could take a chance on without a single shot-blocking talent already on the roster? i'm at a loss. it's a petrie pick. he may or may not have actually offered any advising on mccallum, but it smacks of petrie either way...
 
#5
It broke my confidence in the new FO. It was a really, really, really disastrous pick.
"disastrous" is melodramatic re: just about anything that occurs in the 2nd round of the nba draft. but, given just how guard-heavy this roster is, the kings' 2nd round pick was definitely lacking in the kind of thoughtful consideration that you'd like to see from a front office that claims it's prepared to turn this thing around, specifically on the defensive side of the ball...
 
#6
I honestly believe the front office has their sights set higher than Withey. It's June 28. Give things a chance to come to fruition before you decide a pick was disastrous.
Ha, fine. Let's pretend that the Kings are going to trade for the best possible player to put next to Cousins. What makes a better trade piece: a little chucking guard or the top-2 defensive center in the NCAA?
 
#7
You guys need to stop. Withey would have never seen the court. From listening to PD and looking at this kid McCallum, I believe they felt like he was mid 1st round talent. If we are planning on shipping MT/IT and amnestying Salmons it has the potential to be a very good selection.
 
#8
It broke my confidence in the new FO. It was a really, really, really disastrous pick.
Wow, people are taking "fans being fans" to a new level. It is only June, we don't know their plans short-term and long-term and they are not gonna tell us everything NOW. So, take a pill and enjoy the ride and most likely you will be glad you did.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
#9
Maybe they have plans on dealing a few of the guards (IT, Thornton, Jimmer) and keeping a PG who they feel has decent potential and a good fit, if that's the case I have no issue with the 2nd pick we made, but a bit early to make judgments.
 
#10
Maybe they have plans on dealing a few of the guards (IT, Thornton, Jimmer) and keeping a PG who they feel has decent potential and a good fit, if that's the case I have no issue with the 2nd pick we made, but a bit early to make judgments.
i'm sure they have "plans" to deal a few of the guards, but who's gonna take them? and for what, exactly? it's a general rule of thumb that you don't trade big for small in the nba, and the kings' biggest needs are clearly in the frontcourt. now, you can probably move a guy like marcus thornton for a SF with less overall talent than thornton, but who better fills a need in sacramento. but you're not filling any needs with the likes of isaiah thomas and jimmer fredette, young guards of dubious size on rookie-scale contracts. you could re-sign patrick patterson to start at PF, and could potentially package fredette with jason thompson in order to bring back something of value, but jimmer alone, or even jimmer and IT, aren't bringing back anything the kings need. and yet the kings' FO decided to add another guard to the mess that already needed a considerable amount of untangling. the 2nd round is precisely when you take a chance on unproven, unheralded bigs, particularly if you're up to your *** in guards...
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#11
Ha, fine. Let's pretend that the Kings are going to trade for the best possible player to put next to Cousins. What makes a better trade piece: a little chucking guard or the top-2 defensive center in the NCAA?
lol. If Withey was as good as some of you are now trying to paint him, he would have gone much earlier.

Sorry, but people are getting their panties in a bunch about NOTHING.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#12
Wow, people are taking "fans being fans" to a new level. It is only June, we don't know their plans short-term and long-term and they are not gonna tell us everything NOW. So, take a pill and enjoy the ride and most likely you will be glad you did.
Exactly. The attempt around here to microanalyze every single transaction, rumor, perceived slight, etc. has gotten to be almost too much to even wade through.

I will have faith in the new regime until they give me concrete proof that I am wrong.
 
#13
I really like Withey too and have said so many times. With that said, Ray McCollum could turn out to be a good value pick. Remember, this draft is pretty deep in the 2nd round, so it's not like the FO passed up Withey for the next Salim Stoudamire. The McCollum kid can play, he could easily be one of those 2nd round picks that ends up playing 10 yrs in the league.

Also, McCollum is PG who excels in transition, same as McLenmore. Withey, for all his prowess, is not an up and down type of player. It could be that the coaching staff wants to play at a faster pace and is looking for guys who can sprint up and down. In such scenario, Withey would not get too many mins in such a system. I guess we'll see.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#14
Here's a fun game.

When the season starts, go back and see how many 2nd round picks made the team that drafted them. And more importantly, how many guys picked after McCallum.

Yes, absolutely on paper Withey was a better fit for the Kings. But in the 2nd round even getting a player who sticks in the NBA is an achievement.

How many people really think Thornton is going to play out his contract in Sacramento? Or that Jimmer will be re-signed? It's not even a given that the Kings pick up IT's option and even if they do he's a FA after this season. And of course Tyreke is a restricted free agent this offseason. Logjam is such a strange word to me when considering how fluid NBA rosters are and can be.

The only way being upset over this pick is validated is if in three years or so Withey is a better player than McCallum.
 
#17
Here's a fun game.

When the season starts, go back and see how many 2nd round picks made the team that drafted them. And more importantly, how many guys picked after McCallum.

Yes, absolutely on paper Withey was a better fit for the Kings. But in the 2nd round even getting a player who sticks in the NBA is an achievement.

How many people really think Thornton is going to play out his contract in Sacramento? Or that Jimmer will be re-signed? It's not even a given that the Kings pick up IT's option and even if they do he's a FA after this season. And of course Tyreke is a restricted free agent this offseason. Logjam is such a strange word to me when considering how fluid NBA rosters are and can be.

The only way being upset over this pick is validated is if in three years or so Withey is a better player than McCallum.
the bolded portion above is key. some of us are upset not so much with the pick itself, but rather with what it reveals about the FO's strategy. i'll have no problem if thornton and/or jimmer is traded. i won't even be terribly upset if they let IT walk. but if they retain thornton and jimmer, and allow toney douglas to walk, for example, it tells us something about the FO that doesn't really jive with mike malone's philosophy of building a defense-first team. or, if they allow tyreke evans to walk in favor of any combination of their mismatched guards, it tells us something about the FO's strategy, and i don't find that to be a compelling strategy at all...

in general, why let IT walk in favor of mccallum? for that matter, why let tyreke walk in favor of mclemore? neither mclemore nor mccallum have proven an ounce in the nba, whereas evans and thomas have proven quite a lot already in their young careers. i just hate strategies that assume younger and cheaper is going to lead a team to the promised land, especially when the team is young enough as it is, and when the only significant moves that the previous regime had made in the last seven years was to snatch up two all-star potential talents in demarcus cousins and tyreke evans in the draft...

all told, there's a thousand factors at play, and we'll just have to wait and see what happens. i just think that drafting a guard in the second round further muddies the water, as it tells us nothing about the kings' plans for the frontcourt rotation, which clearly needs considerable work. fans often act as if you can just go out and snatch up quality PF's and C's on a whim. they don't grow on trees. they are trees. that's why they're so coveted in the nba. and while withey hardly qualifies as a "quality" talent in the nba, given how unproven he is, at least he represents a team need that you can stash in the D-league for developmental purposes, whereas mccallum does not represent a team need, so there's little purpose for him on either the roster or in the D-league, as far as the kings are concerned...
 
#18
Kings can have Aldrich if they want - strong, more experienced version of Withey.
Not taking chance on Mitchell, was more puzzling. And Grizzlies were able to get natural successor to Tony Allen.
Still Mccallum never worked out in Sacramento, and became a target for PDA after a session in Denver - research likely followed and they still went with him. Seems like they feel he's talented enough.
 
#19
I cringed a little when Glen Rice Jr and Tony Mitchell sandwiched the Kings 2nd round pick...I really liked both guys but liked Franklin even more. But there is a reason other teams didn't like those players as much as Ray McCallum. One thing I do like about McCallum is he was a blue-chip player in HS, always a good risk in the 2nd round.

The thing about Withey is no way all of the NBA teams let him go deep into the second round, especially with his 4 blks per. So, obviously there were issues with him overall.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#20
IMO drafting McCallum doesn't reveal anything about the FO's strategy. It's a 2nd round pick. Half of them will be cut this summer. Drafting a great fit that coincides with the front offices' vision of the team doesn't amount to much if the kid doesn't even make the final roster and is out of the league entirely (NBDL included) in three years.

Bold prediction #1: Withey won't ever be a better player than Jason Thompson or Patrick Patterson and likely not as good as Chuck Hayes despite being a good shot blocker on the college level.

Bold prediction #2: The Kings will pick up IT's option and their decision of whether or not to resign him NEXT offseason will have everything to do with market value and how well Thomas plays and nothing to do with whether McCallum is on the roster or not.

Bold prediction #3: D'Alessandro's short and long term plans that he laid out to Vivek when convincing Ranadive that he was the right guy for the job did not hinge on who was drafted in the 2nd round of this year's draft.

Again, if Withey turns out to be better than McCallum as a pro I'll eat my words.

Here's something interesting to consider:

Cole Aldrich and Jeff Withey both went to Kansas - Aldrich for three years and Withey for four - and their final seasons, when adjusted for minutes played (26 mpg for Cole 31 for Jeff) are almost identical. Not just PPG, RPG, BPG but down to shooting percentages, shots attempted, steals and assists. And while Withey measured an inch and a half taller, Aldrich had a longer wingspan, greater standing reach, and was faster in the lane agility and sprint tests. And while they had virtually the same body fat (Aldrich just slightly lower) Aldrich carried more weight on his frame and showed a stronger willingness to bang in the post while still blocking the same percentage of shots AND was drafted 11th in a stronger draft. Probably most importantly, Aldrich is a three year veteran of the NBA and yet is only a year and a half older than Withey.

For anybody that's really upset that the Kings didn't draft Withey in the 2nd round, Aldrich is available, likely at a bargain price and with an NBA track record.

I think McCallum will be a better pro than Withey. And honestly I think Aldrich will as well. In fact, I think Cole Aldrich serves as a nice "best case scenario" for Withey's career, D-League stint included. And the Kings can have both of those guys if they so desire.
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#21
Kings can have Aldrich if they want - strong, more experienced version of Withey.
Not taking chance on Mitchell, was more puzzling. And Grizzlies were able to get natural successor to Tony Allen.
Still Mccallum never worked out in Sacramento, and became a target for PDA after a session in Denver - research likely followed and they still went with him. Seems like they feel he's talented enough.
People seem to have forgotten about Aldrich.
 
#22
Aldrich is not a defense for not picking Withey. Really? If they shouldn't have picked Withey because they had Aldrich, which they don't, then they should not have drafted McCallum because they have Jimmer, Isaiah, and Douglas.

Seriously, there's no excuse for not picking Withey. Is having two shot blocking centers a basketball sin? Withey was McLemore's team mate!
 
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funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#23
I cringed a little when Glen Rice Jr and Tony Mitchell sandwiched the Kings 2nd round pick...I really liked both guys but liked Franklin even more. But there is a reason other teams didn't like those players as much as Ray McCallum. One thing I do like about McCallum is he was a blue-chip player in HS, always a good risk in the 2nd round.

The thing about Withey is no way all of the NBA teams let him go deep into the second round, especially with his 4 blks per. So, obviously there were issues with him overall.
I wanted no part of Mitchell. And I am a fan of Franklin but he needs the right situation to succeed. If he could have Kawhi Leonard like improvement on his jumper he could be a steal. But I don't think he has the personality/work ethic for that. And the Kings weren't the right situation. No established vets for him to play behind and his game just didn't mesh with McLemore or Cousins, let alone Tyreke if he returns.

Rice is selfish and I'm not his biggest fan, but I would have gladly gambled on him in the 2nd and was upset when he went just before the Kings pick. I was thinking the team might swing for the fences with Ledo but McCallum made a lot of sense, even with the glut of guards. At the very least he's IT insurance if Thomas gets JJ Barea money thrown at him next offseason. Assuming of course, that McCallum makes the team.

Withey doesn't have a great body, gets rag dolled a bit in the post and has limited upside. He's an end of the rotation guy. Worth a pick for sure, but not the kind of athletic knucklehead (JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan) that can really pay off in the 2nd round. I'm sure the workout process didn't help Withey much either. He's going to show best in a full game situation. I would have been just fine if the Kings grabbed Withey, I just don't see it as a big deal at all that they didn't.
 
#24
Argh, people need to stop. Are we really getting worked up over MAYBE a 4th big for our roster?

I'll take Cole any day of the week. He's bigger, has NBA experience, and showed some decent skills and success during his tenure with us. And I'd be beyond shocked if Cole got more than a $2mil/year from someone. So he'll be dirt cheap.

2nd Round is all about BPA. You don't draft for "need" when your best case scenario is finding a rotational player. Boozer, Millsap, Arenas, Manu are big outliers in the 2nd round.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
#25
Seriously, there's no excuse for not picking Withey.
Sure there is. The excuse is, the front office thought McCallum would be a better player. Again, are people actually this upset that the team went with for BPA in the SECOND round? Sheesh.
 
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#26
Seriously, there's no excuse for not picking Withey. Is having two shot blocking centers some kind of basketball sin?
He is inept on offense. I would be shocked if he is on an NBA team in 3 years and if he is more than a 12/13 man or D league player the next 2.
 
#27
I don't see the infatuation with Withey. I really don't. Some of you guys are treating him like he was supposed to go in the mid 1st round and dropped. Yea, he blocked shots in college, but so did Aldrich. We can re-sign Aldrich, or look elsewhere through trades or free agency. Douglas is a FA as well, so he isn't technically on our roster as of July 1st, but that's not the point either with McCallum. The glut of guards that we have will absolutely not last...that is obvious.
 
#28
Sure there is. The excuse is, the front office thought McCallum would be a better player. Again, are people actually this upset that the team with for BPA in the SECOND round? Sheesh.
Alright, I'll give you that one. There is one excuse: incompetence, which is a one word translation for "the front office thought McCallum would be a better player".
 
#30
Alright, I'll give you that one. There is one excuse: incompetence, which is a one word translation for "the front office thought McCallum would be a better player".
Incompetence because they (GM, coach, pro scouts) had a different opinion with you? May I ask you a question - who the beep are you?