21 free throws in the 4th quarter
- Thread starter vistacruza_kings
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So what's your point? Just looking at the numbers I'd cry conspiracy ... again! But having watched the game I can easily say that the Lakers got to the line without the ref's help. The Cs just allowed the the Lakers to get in position to score and fouled over and over again.
I hate the lakers as much as the next King's Fan but the the free throw numbers were more a fault of the Cs than a setup by the refs.
I hate the lakers as much as the next King's Fan but the the free throw numbers were more a fault of the Cs than a setup by the refs.
Yeah the officiating was bad all series long, all playoffs, really. But they let them play in Game 7. The Lakers got calls down the stretch after being the more aggressive team all game (23 offensive rebounds).
By the way, any comparison to 2002 needs to be tempered with the fact that the Kings were shooting more free throws in practically every game of that series than the Lakers were, and all of a sudden in Game 6, the Lakers shot more free throws in that quarter than they were averaging per game in the series. Such a huge swing from one way to the other that it was shocking. It wasn't shocking to see the Lakers at the line last night, even though I disagreed with some of the calls. That's the way the entire series had been going.
By the way, any comparison to 2002 needs to be tempered with the fact that the Kings were shooting more free throws in practically every game of that series than the Lakers were, and all of a sudden in Game 6, the Lakers shot more free throws in that quarter than they were averaging per game in the series. Such a huge swing from one way to the other that it was shocking. It wasn't shocking to see the Lakers at the line last night, even though I disagreed with some of the calls. That's the way the entire series had been going.
Exactly. I enjoyed the whole series and did not consider the officiating to be a player on the court, which is something I could not say about 2002.
The Celtics got their share of breaks, including an out-of-bounds call that was, in fact, off Kevin Garnett and another call when the officials ruled the ball had touched the rim (it hadn't) and the Lakers lost possession at a key juncture.
If people are going to complain about the officiating, they've got to consider that mistakes were made on both ends. BUT all in all, I think the calls were equitable and that's about all that can truly be expected.
I love game 7 situations and this one did not disappoint.
The Celtics got their share of breaks, including an out-of-bounds call that was, in fact, off Kevin Garnett and another call when the officials ruled the ball had touched the rim (it hadn't) and the Lakers lost possession at a key juncture.
If people are going to complain about the officiating, they've got to consider that mistakes were made on both ends. BUT all in all, I think the calls were equitable and that's about all that can truly be expected.
I love game 7 situations and this one did not disappoint.
That fourth quarter was terrible. The Celtics were in the penalty halfway through the quarter. Yes you can point to some missed calls on both sides the whole series. Yes the Celtics had problems scoring in the fourth quarter that were mostly their own (tired legs mostly). But it's hard to get stops when the other team is shooting free throws every time down the floor. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Fourth quarters are always about who can make stops. That's why the free throw total is significant. The game was primarily decided at the free throw line and that has more to do with how the refs were calling the game than anything the players did.
What I saw last night was a great back-and-forth game through three quarters that turned into a whistle fest for the last 12 minutes and the home team pulling ahead for the win. I don't feel like the Celtics were outright robbed, but I still can't shake the feeling that one team was getting all the breaks when it mattered most while the other was trying to get up with someone's foot on their chest. And that's a sickeningly familiar feeling.
What I saw last night was a great back-and-forth game through three quarters that turned into a whistle fest for the last 12 minutes and the home team pulling ahead for the win. I don't feel like the Celtics were outright robbed, but I still can't shake the feeling that one team was getting all the breaks when it mattered most while the other was trying to get up with someone's foot on their chest. And that's a sickeningly familiar feeling.
There were some bad calls down the stretch like Gasols counted bucket when he already landed... or the Gasol shot that KG blocked and they called out of bounds on Cs when the ball really hit Gasol's foot when he was sitting out of bounds on the floor.
BUT... I don't think that the refs were the reason the Cs loss. They went back to running ISOs and everyone just watched for stretches in the 2nd half. You are never going to beat the lakers length like that. The Cs were winning with a balanced mix of offense with posting Sheed, KG low block 1 on 1, Rondo creating. But they should've know better than to run ISOs repeatedly for Pierce when it wasn't working with Artest in beast mode on him. Maybe the players were all just too tired.
BUT... I don't think that the refs were the reason the Cs loss. They went back to running ISOs and everyone just watched for stretches in the 2nd half. You are never going to beat the lakers length like that. The Cs were winning with a balanced mix of offense with posting Sheed, KG low block 1 on 1, Rondo creating. But they should've know better than to run ISOs repeatedly for Pierce when it wasn't working with Artest in beast mode on him. Maybe the players were all just too tired.
It looked that way from one pov, but when they showed it on replay from several different angles there was no change whatsoever in the trajectory and it appears as though the ball misses the rim by a matter of centimeters. I don't remember which sports show it was on, but they did a pretty good analysis of it...
But that's really a side point to the issue, right? The main point for me was that I didn't feel the officials insinuating themselves into the series. I was somewhat pleasantly surprised at exactly who was officiating in game 7 and who wasn't there.
But that's really a side point to the issue, right? The main point for me was that I didn't feel the officials insinuating themselves into the series. I was somewhat pleasantly surprised at exactly who was officiating in game 7 and who wasn't there.
The Lakers were in the penalty the same time the Celtics were. It got to a point where they called a foul actually against the Lakers and I said "alright that's enough of these damn fouls, let the boys play". Because it had turned into a bit of a whistle fest. I'm just saying that while the Lakers benefited the most, it wasn't about the whistles in the 4th quarter. There were some questionable calls, but there were some questionable no calls, too. And the reason the Lakers were getting the benefit is because they were more aggressive all game (see: Kobe going for the dunk on Pierce and getting a borderline call to go his way; he did get hit, but that doesn't have to be called there).
Again I'm being made into a Laker apologist. I'm just saying that I don't think the refs were the issue last night. I think the Celtics got outworked, which is kind of the antithesis of the entire series and what the Celtics were about throughout the playoffs. They played great defense all night, but the last line of a good defensive possession is grabbing the rebound, and they failed there 23 times last night. Start right there if you want to know why they lost the game.
Again I'm being made into a Laker apologist. I'm just saying that I don't think the refs were the issue last night. I think the Celtics got outworked, which is kind of the antithesis of the entire series and what the Celtics were about throughout the playoffs. They played great defense all night, but the last line of a good defensive possession is grabbing the rebound, and they failed there 23 times last night. Start right there if you want to know why they lost the game.
It looked that way from one pov, but when they showed it on replay from several different angles there was no change whatsoever in the trajectory and it appears as though the ball misses the rim by a matter of centimeters. I don't remember which sports show it was on, but they did a pretty good analysis of it...
But that's really a side point to the issue, right? The main point for me was that I didn't feel the officials insinuating themselves into the series. I was somewhat pleasantly surprised at exactly who was officiating in game 7 and who wasn't there.
But that's really a side point to the issue, right? The main point for me was that I didn't feel the officials insinuating themselves into the series. I was somewhat pleasantly surprised at exactly who was officiating in game 7 and who wasn't there.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. The Lakers drew their fifth foul with 6:48 remaining in the quarter, sending Gasol to the line for free throws. Boston drew their fifth foul with 2:14 remaining in the game. Between 6:48 -- when Boston went in the penalty -- and 2:14 -- when LA went in the penalty -- LA shot 12 free throws. 12 in 4 and a half minutes and that's before Boston starting intentionally fouling to stop the clock. Check the play-by-play yourself.
The officiating was an issue. They let them play for three quarters, then started calling it tighter on one end and the Lakers came back. The "Lakers were the aggressors" line doesn't hold up. They got more boards, but more boards does not equal more aggressive. It could be height, or lack of athleticism, but it has nothing to do with the type of shot attempts taken which are what create FTAs.
Both teams were physical from the start. Both teams had guys going inside. Outside shot attempt percentages were very close. The FTAs had a big disparity.
The officiating swung the series from game to game, no two games were called the same in a row and the team needing the win got the game called in the way that benefited their style. You saw two teams with offenses and defenses adapted to work with playoff officiating, trying or waiting for the calls to go to their style. The way the game was officiated in each game this series spoke to the outcome of the game. That's enough to throw another NBA playoffs into the trash heap. When you have two teams trying to manipulate their way to rings then you have a huge problem.
Both teams were physical from the start. Both teams had guys going inside. Outside shot attempt percentages were very close. The FTAs had a big disparity.
The officiating swung the series from game to game, no two games were called the same in a row and the team needing the win got the game called in the way that benefited their style. You saw two teams with offenses and defenses adapted to work with playoff officiating, trying or waiting for the calls to go to their style. The way the game was officiated in each game this series spoke to the outcome of the game. That's enough to throw another NBA playoffs into the trash heap. When you have two teams trying to manipulate their way to rings then you have a huge problem.
What makes me mad the most is not that the lakers organization gets another ring. It's the fact that these arrogant sobs that call themselves lakers fans have something to cheep for forever. And the fact that Kobe gets his 5th. I really despise this guy and Im
really not that type of person. He's been so fortunate to have the teams that he's had and that drives me crazy.
really not that type of person. He's been so fortunate to have the teams that he's had and that drives me crazy.
Not only him but Phil and his gravy training ways bug me as well. I'd like to see this guy, for once, take on a rebuilding team or something more challenging than coaching the best players in the game to a title.
As far as the officiating is concerned, there were horrible calls like there always are but they were evened out throughout the series. No team was being favored over the other. Unfortunately, the Lakers won this series fair and square. I can only hope that Phil and some of these jokers go away next year.
As far as the officiating is concerned, there were horrible calls like there always are but they were evened out throughout the series. No team was being favored over the other. Unfortunately, the Lakers won this series fair and square. I can only hope that Phil and some of these jokers go away next year.
Are you serious with this? Nobody shoots free throws until they get the fifth foul. See my previous post. Half of those foul calls would not have been shooting fouls if not for the penalty. Regardless of whatever technicality you want to point out, the Lakers still shot 12 free throws in four and a half minutes which turned a 1 point Celtic lead into a 6 point deficit that Boston couldn't come back from. Both teams made two shots from the floor in that stretch so the score would have been tied at 2:14 instead of a 6 point Laker lead. It was a huge factor in that quarter and it wasn't just LA being more aggressive. The Lakers were aggresive the whole game, but the refs suddenly started calling every hint of contact a foul in the fourth quarter and that more or less handed the game to the Lakers. Boston is known as a defensive team. If you call those cheap fouls you take away their ability to defend.
The Lakers were driving to the rim all night and had 15-20 more FG attempts than Boston in that 4th quarter, within that, a lot of offensive boards that put a ton of pressure on their D. I don't know how it can be claimed that they didn't attack the rim enough in this game.
The refs SHOULD HAVE called the entire game like they did the 4th instead of letting them play death ball for 3 Qtrs. It would have been a much better game if they had done that and no room for the accusation that they swung their style to different poles mid-game. The refs can't or won't find a medium between calling ticky tack weak shh like they did in Gms 1 and 2 and patently refusing to call fouls that would be called 100% of the time in the RS just because it's Gm 7 of the Finals.
LA wound up dead last in FTAs and average differential among all 16 playoff teams. At one point before the Finals, they shot 99 fewer than their opps. This ain't the year for FT differential conspiracies unless you wanna start listing the calls that had absolutely no merit. I assure you, it won't meet the standard of 2002 Gm 6 or Wade in 06. Very little Funderburke and Pollard type of juice. If you had gone into the playoffs knowing that, anti-LA fans would've taken it and run. I think Gm 2 of the Finals was the only one out of 23 games in which LA had a gross advantage in officiating, and they had a blown review in that game that sealed it -against- them. I'm actually proud that there was as little controversy for them this year as there was.
The refs SHOULD HAVE called the entire game like they did the 4th instead of letting them play death ball for 3 Qtrs. It would have been a much better game if they had done that and no room for the accusation that they swung their style to different poles mid-game. The refs can't or won't find a medium between calling ticky tack weak shh like they did in Gms 1 and 2 and patently refusing to call fouls that would be called 100% of the time in the RS just because it's Gm 7 of the Finals.
LA wound up dead last in FTAs and average differential among all 16 playoff teams. At one point before the Finals, they shot 99 fewer than their opps. This ain't the year for FT differential conspiracies unless you wanna start listing the calls that had absolutely no merit. I assure you, it won't meet the standard of 2002 Gm 6 or Wade in 06. Very little Funderburke and Pollard type of juice. If you had gone into the playoffs knowing that, anti-LA fans would've taken it and run. I think Gm 2 of the Finals was the only one out of 23 games in which LA had a gross advantage in officiating, and they had a blown review in that game that sealed it -against- them. I'm actually proud that there was as little controversy for them this year as there was.
Maybe they should learn to defend without fouling.
Nobody shoots fouls until they commit the fifth foul, but my point that you originally responded to was that both teams were in the penalty (meaning they had no team fouls left) at about the same time in the 4th quarter. That's all I was saying. The Celtics used their last team foul with 7:28 left, and the Lakers used theirs with 6:28 left. That was my original point. The rest of this is just a technical debate. The point still stands.
The foul shots were a huge factor, but the calls were sound, for the most part. There were some questionable calls and non calls on both teams. But overall, I don't think the refs swayed the outcome. I think the Lakers stayed on the attack and the Celtics got overwhelmed.
Nobody shoots fouls until they commit the fifth foul, but my point that you originally responded to was that both teams were in the penalty (meaning they had no team fouls left) at about the same time in the 4th quarter. That's all I was saying. The Celtics used their last team foul with 7:28 left, and the Lakers used theirs with 6:28 left. That was my original point. The rest of this is just a technical debate. The point still stands.
The foul shots were a huge factor, but the calls were sound, for the most part. There were some questionable calls and non calls on both teams. But overall, I don't think the refs swayed the outcome. I think the Lakers stayed on the attack and the Celtics got overwhelmed.
Alright, let me take a step back. You saw what you saw and I saw what I saw. It's mostly just a difference of interpretation. I felt like every time the Lakers attacked they were rewarded with a trip to the free throw line. That to me is the refs imposing their will on the game. Now you could say (as you seem to be) that there's nothing stopping the Celtics from attacking the same way and drawing fouls. However, it had already been established for three quarters that the game was not going to be called that way. The abrupt change is a problem for me because it swung the momentum entirely in the Lakers favor.
If you wanted the Lakers to win that's the team seizing control when it matters most. If you wanted the Lakers to lose, that's the refs deciding who the winner was going to be. Because anyone who watched games 1-6 in this series could have predicted the outcome if you knew ahead of time the refs were going to be whistle happy. Why? (1) The Lakers have Kobe Bryant (2) Boston is not a good free throw shooting team (3) Boston was seriously undersized inside without Perkins (4) Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen are primarily jumpshooters at this stage in their career. All of those are reasons why LA was favored to win this game but again, why the abrupt change after three quarters?
We've all seen NBA playoff games where teams shoot 30 or 40 free throws apiece. It's ugly basketball but it happens. We've also seen games with less than 20 free throws apiece. And then guys like JVG say "That's a regular season foul, not a playoff foul" and "Play through it". But when it's an elimination game and the refs suddenly switch sides in the fourth quarter it's always suspect as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the Celtics were robbed, I don't think the fix is in. But it does leave a bad taste in my mouth. Like Boston wasn't really given a fair chance.
Think about it this way, why did Boston pull out to a 13 point lead in the third quarter? Yeah it's partly because the Lakers were shooting poorly, but shot selection and defense play a big part there. Yes Kobe was playing terribly, but he wasn't taking shots he doesn't usually take and those misses wouldn't have been surprising if it was anyone but Kobe. He's still shooting with 2 or 3 hands in his face, he just usually makes them anyway. I think the reason Boston was in control of the game up to that point is because the refs were calling the game loose and Boston was playing aggressive defense as a result.
So if we can damn the Celtics for failing to be aggressors offensively in the fourth quarter when the refs decided every borderline play was going to be a foul (and you have to admit, a lot of those fourth quarter fouls were initiated by the offensive player) than why not also damn the Lakers for failing to be aggressive defensively the first 2 and a half quarters and digging themselves a huge hole because of it? Should aggressive offense be rewarded and not aggresive defense?
That's what I mean by perspective here. For me the most important thing is that I don't want the refs influencing the game. If there's legitimate hard contact and it's not Kobe Bryant throwing himself into three Celtic defenders, call the foul. Otherwise let the players play. The three point line didn't destory basketball and neither did the dunk or the two steps rule. But the free throw line has become a serious issue for me because of this kind of inconsistency. The best referees the NBA's got can't make up their minds how to call fouls even within the same game. Not even in game 7 of the Finals.
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And this "Maybe they should learn to defend without fouling" is total BS because Ray Allen's defense on Kobe Bryant that entire series was textbook "how to defend without fouling". I don't think I've ever see anyone do it better. The Celtics didn't seem to have any problem defending the Lakers without fouling for the first three quarters. That's just assuming your own conclusion. Just because fouls were called doesn't always mean fouls are committed.
If you wanted the Lakers to win that's the team seizing control when it matters most. If you wanted the Lakers to lose, that's the refs deciding who the winner was going to be. Because anyone who watched games 1-6 in this series could have predicted the outcome if you knew ahead of time the refs were going to be whistle happy. Why? (1) The Lakers have Kobe Bryant (2) Boston is not a good free throw shooting team (3) Boston was seriously undersized inside without Perkins (4) Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen are primarily jumpshooters at this stage in their career. All of those are reasons why LA was favored to win this game but again, why the abrupt change after three quarters?
We've all seen NBA playoff games where teams shoot 30 or 40 free throws apiece. It's ugly basketball but it happens. We've also seen games with less than 20 free throws apiece. And then guys like JVG say "That's a regular season foul, not a playoff foul" and "Play through it". But when it's an elimination game and the refs suddenly switch sides in the fourth quarter it's always suspect as far as I'm concerned. I don't think the Celtics were robbed, I don't think the fix is in. But it does leave a bad taste in my mouth. Like Boston wasn't really given a fair chance.
Think about it this way, why did Boston pull out to a 13 point lead in the third quarter? Yeah it's partly because the Lakers were shooting poorly, but shot selection and defense play a big part there. Yes Kobe was playing terribly, but he wasn't taking shots he doesn't usually take and those misses wouldn't have been surprising if it was anyone but Kobe. He's still shooting with 2 or 3 hands in his face, he just usually makes them anyway. I think the reason Boston was in control of the game up to that point is because the refs were calling the game loose and Boston was playing aggressive defense as a result.
So if we can damn the Celtics for failing to be aggressors offensively in the fourth quarter when the refs decided every borderline play was going to be a foul (and you have to admit, a lot of those fourth quarter fouls were initiated by the offensive player) than why not also damn the Lakers for failing to be aggressive defensively the first 2 and a half quarters and digging themselves a huge hole because of it? Should aggressive offense be rewarded and not aggresive defense?
That's what I mean by perspective here. For me the most important thing is that I don't want the refs influencing the game. If there's legitimate hard contact and it's not Kobe Bryant throwing himself into three Celtic defenders, call the foul. Otherwise let the players play. The three point line didn't destory basketball and neither did the dunk or the two steps rule. But the free throw line has become a serious issue for me because of this kind of inconsistency. The best referees the NBA's got can't make up their minds how to call fouls even within the same game. Not even in game 7 of the Finals.
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And this "Maybe they should learn to defend without fouling" is total BS because Ray Allen's defense on Kobe Bryant that entire series was textbook "how to defend without fouling". I don't think I've ever see anyone do it better. The Celtics didn't seem to have any problem defending the Lakers without fouling for the first three quarters. That's just assuming your own conclusion. Just because fouls were called doesn't always mean fouls are committed.
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