The NBA Finals 2010: Celtics vs Lakers

[Peter_Gibbons]

Kobe choked. I agree entirely. But your questioning his greatness is honestly rather idiotic. He is one of the best players ever in the league so far. If you disagree with that then you don't know basketball very much. Yes, he is over rated. But in a couple of your posts you said he was simply a good player. Now that's bull**** to be honest with you.

Give good players credit where credit is due. Tyreke Evans will one day be in a similar situation. All big time superstars are overrated one way or another, but the fact is that every one of them has put in tons and tons of work and effort to become the great player that they are. I feel it is unfair to take away what they have worked their ***es off for.

Sorry guys, but I just hate the Celtics more than I hate the Lakers. Not the prettiest series you'd hope for, but I think there's a lot to be learnt in terms of seeing how championship calibre teams play. Princeton offense isn't gonna win championships.

My point was kobe choked.

I've ALWAYS said kobe is a good player. "GOOD" is a relative term so you can go ahead and relax from judging what a "good player" means to other people. Everyone has a different definition of greatness and IMO kobe is not on the levels of the greats... Jordan, Magic, Bird, Russell, Kareem etc.

These guys have iconic moments. They also don't choke like kobe in big moments. Yes kobe had some good games, but would Magic Johnson have a finals game 7 like this against the Celtics?


To be great, you have to be iconic and shine when it matters most. Thats what seperates the good players from the greats. Sure, you can use excuses like "oh its just 1 bad game". Its kobe's team, he is suppose to be the best player on the planet. He is not allowed to choke like this when it matters most and still be considered to be on the level of Magic and Jordan. The bar for greatness should not be lowered because kobe can't reach it. No excuses. Its very difficult to be great. If you want to be great you HAVE TO show up big in these moments. kobe's game winners in the regular season are great.... for sportscenter.

kobe really looked scared out there and it was embarassing for him. He waited to be rescued and Ron Artest delivered. kobe is one lucky guy because if they loss, he would go down as the biggest choker of all time. Now they'll sugarcoat it for him and downplay it.

 

[Gargamel]

as far as we can say that this was an exciting finals.... seriously it took 7 GAMES for the lakers to beat an aging old celtic team? with a ray allen who's jump shot was fading?

Yeah, I think they were totally at fault for coming out emotionally flat in Games 2 and 5, but that's the hallmark of this year's Laker team. Easily the most schizo championship team we've had here, they just love to stand on the edge of that cliff. Maybe that's Artest's influence.

LA was marginally better than Boston, due to more consistent offensive spread through the roster. Boston's multi-minute scoring droughts thru out the series (that they had all year) were one of their losing margins. Their rebounding was the other. That said, Boston was a lot more physically tough throughout their roster than anyone over here anticipated. They were just a box of chocolates on offense, otherwise they would've taken this one.

There is a bad taste in my mouth because, like Abe Lincoln, I cannot tell a lie. I have to respect those green bastards more than any other team just like it were the 1980s. They are the only other team in the whole Assoc right now that has championship mettle, know-how, historical credentials, and clutchness. I don't have to respect their personalities, at least.

 

[Superman]

kobe really looked scared out there and it was embarassing for him. He waited to be rescued and Ron Artest delivered. kobe is one lucky guy because if they loss, he would go down as the biggest choker of all time. Now they'll sugarcoat it for him and downplay it.

They are actually giving it to him pretty good on local radio here.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

They are actually giving it to him pretty good on local radio here.

As they should. Who said what? 570 or 710? My radio at work doesn't pick up AM very well, haha.

 

[Gargamel]

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h166/Teppang/Sasha.jpg

 

[Sparky6string]

Never put yourself in a position to have to root for the lamers. That's why I always bet small against them when it seems a certainty that they will win

I like your style.

 

[Superman]

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h166/Teppang/Sasha.jpg

We should ban you for that. Or at least levy an infraction. Don't ever do that again.

 

[Superman]

As they should. Who said what? 570 or 710? My radio at work doesn't pick up AM very well, haha.

710. Siciliano (I hate that guy) was basically saying that Kobe almost cost them the game. He shot them out out of it in the first half, missed free throws, turned the ball over, etc. Spero Dides was saying during the broadcast last night that Kobe was taking bad shot after bad shot and was the main reason they were down in the first half, etc. So they weren't giving him the kid gloves treatment.

Plenty of praise for good defense and rebounding, but lots of criticism as well.

 

[Gargamel]

We should ban you for that. Or at least levy an infraction. Don't ever do that again.

I laughed good at this one. Look at PP's glare. I have to put up with Sasha for 100 games, cut me some slack.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

710. Siciliano (I hate that guy) was basically saying that Kobe almost cost them the game. He shot them out out of it in the first half, missed free throws, turned the ball over, etc. Spero Dides was saying during the broadcast last night that Kobe was taking bad shot after bad shot and was the main reason they were down in the first half, etc. So they weren't giving him the kid gloves treatment.

Plenty of praise for good defense and rebounding, but lots of criticism as well.

Yes I remember Spero pointing out several times kobe was being affected by the game 7 nerves. He did enough to cost them the ring, just that Artest came through and Gasol late.

 

[Superman]

Yes I remember Spero pointing out several times kobe was being affected by the game 7 nerves. He did enough to cost them the ring, just that Artest came through and Gasol late.

Kobe made some plays late himself, but he definitely didn't carry them. He was a detriment for two and a half quarters.

I thought Phil made a substitution mistake at the beginning of the second quarter. Kobe hit a little jumper in the lane off a pump fake, and then he went to the bench for his customary rest. Considering the struggles he'd been having (some of them poor shots, some good defense), I would have left him in at that point.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Kobe made some plays late himself, but he definitely didn't carry them. He was a detriment for two and a half quarters.

I have to disagree. He was a detriment for 3.5 qtrs. Even when his teammates already caught up and ease a lot of the nerves for the lakers, he still couldn't step up. Remember Phil had to sit him out because he was messing up the game. Phil even said in his end of 3rd interview in a frustrated tone "I keep telling him to not try to do too much". When kobe was on the bench, the lakers' play turned around. That was the turning point, with kobe on the bench.

When he came back in he was still not all there. The commentators were trying to say this is now kobe's time. Again, he missed several jumpers that could've put them in the lead or bigger lead at the time. Then he took the "hero shot" 3 pointer and missed again only to be bailed out by Pau's offensive reb. 3 or 4 of those rebs late in the game seriously just bounced to him. He hit 1 jumper in between and got some free throws and thats the only reason he wasn't a detriment for half of a quarter. kobe didn't bring it at all.

 

[Gargamel]

I thought you said you weren't a kobe homer. Its hard to believe that when you can't even admit kobe choked tonight.

If the lakers loss and kobe had the same exact performance and stat line, he would be answering questions of why he choked for the next year. If Peja shot 6 for 24 in a game 7, he would be called a choker even if he had 15 rebs.

On top of shooting 25% in the most important game of his career, he did not do anything else in the game other than reb. He did not create offense. He was clearly unsure of himself and nervous. Heck even the lakers radio station play by play guy said "kobe is clearly being affected by the game 7 nerves".

You also forget this is kobe bryant, the guy who is suppose to be the most clutch player alive. Doesn't he live for this moment? Isn't kobe suppose to be the guy that wills the lakers to victory. At one point he was clearly scared, dumping the ball off to someone else when the D was not closing in on him. He is not expected to bring zero offense in a huge game like this.

The turning point was when Phil sat out kobe because he was messing up the game. The other guys got to do their thing with Gasol and kobe came back in when the lakers gained momentum. He stunk so bad that phil had to sit him to have a chance. Thats what you call choke.

I disagree with your scared/choke labels. He's got enough in the bank, including strong Game 7s, to blow that claim out of the water. This wasn't his first trip to the rodeo. Peja isn't a reasonable comparison as he was never really known as a "money" or big game player and he wasn't a superstar 1st option. The pressure wasn't squarely on Peja's shoulders, it was mostly on Webber's if anyone.

He had a very rough game offensively and felt pressured to score them out of it, which has always been weakness of his game. I've said it on this site and others that he is generally weak in terms balancing distribution with scoring, he's usually too sweet on passes or scoring. He admittedly failed to get it done that way. However, if you were being totally honest here, you'd point out that it was essentially the same thing throughout the entire series due to Boston's style of defense. You'd just as soon forget to credit what they did while dying to portray Kobe in some negative way, which is the end result of 100% of your posts about him. The Celtics are NOT the Phx Suns, Gibbz.

I'm positive that you've heard countless times that when a guy is having an off night, he can still impact a game by doing the other things. He constantly drove to the rim all night and hit the boards -- the two places that did Boston in --> rebounds and FTs. He shot poorly, but he still clearly contributed to the win in a high pressure situation. It was the Celtics that "choked". They blew a 13 pt lead, and a separate 8-9 pt lead, iirc.

For the record: Jackson pulled MJ out in Gm6 of the 92 Finals because of some of the same dynamics and the reserves had to bring them back from a 15 pt deficit. Bobby Hansen and Cliff Levingston. Jordan had to tell Phil when he was ready to go back in, otherwise Phil would've ridden the reserves to the end (stated by Mike himself on their championship recap tape).

For the record, Part 2: Jackson will typically think Kobe does too much whether he's shooting well or poorly if he's playing too much 0-pass offense. Check this game, he was pissed at Kobe on a 20/26 FG night. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYYXL1Z1NEc

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

I disagree with your scared/choke labels.

Of course you disagree. I didn't even read the entire research essay you wrote because you are clearly a kobe homer. Even when the lakers' home station broadcasters admited kobe was CLEARLY being affected by the game 7 nerves even more than his teammates, you still don't think he choked. You miss the point of what choke means. If Bynum had a 15 reb game while shooting poorly, thats not a choke because of what is expected of him.

A lot more is expected of kobe. He is suppose to be the best player in the game according to you and many others. The best doesn't become a detriment to the game and he did. If you deny that he was shooting his team out of the game for 3 quarters, then you seriously love kobe in a sick way.

Most of kobe's drives to the basket ended up in getting trapped and throwing the ball back to the perimeter with only a few sec on the shot clock. You seem to only remember the few he drew fouls on. His so called good game 7s are when he wasn't the main man. He had the shelter of a big man name Shaq. When the pressure was squarely on him, he failed.

 

[Gargamel]

Of course you disagree. I didn't even read the entire research essay you wrote because you are clearly a kobe homer.

Ha. I see we're at the breaking point of our relationship. Gotcha. No point for us in belaboring the topic any further. Hope to discuss some less divisive topic with you in the future. No hard feelings, man. If you think I'M a homer, for the love of God, don't ever visit LG.net, you'll lose the contents of your stomach.

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Ha. I see we're at the breaking point of our relationship. Gotcha. No point for us in belaboring the topic any further. Hope to discuss some less divisive topic with you in the future. No hard feelings, man. If you think I'M a homer, for the love of God, don't ever visit LG.net, you'll lose the contents of your stomach.

Of course, no hard feelings ever. Its all a discussion and we have difference of opinions. I don't know what lg.net is, maybe its the eletronics brand company or a lakers forum. No need for me to waste my time. I expect homers in lakers forums. Just "odd" to have one on a Kings forum.

 

[mac]

Of course, no hard feelings ever. Its all a discussion and we have difference of opinions. I don't know what lg.net is, maybe its the eletronics brand company or a lakers forum. No need for me to waste my time. I expect homers in lakers forums. Just "odd" to have one on a Kings forum.

I have a question for you. Lebron screwed up a game (game 5?) against the Celtics this year. Does that mean he choked, that he's scared, and that he's not going to be on the same level as the other greats?

My point is you are putting too much into the value of "game 7 of the finals". While it is technically an extremely important game, ultimately it's still a game, same as any other game. We all know how disgustingly clutch Kobe can be, or has been in many games - perhaps not in game 7s or elimination games but definitely in the regular season and other playoff games. So my second question to you is whether a history of bad elimination games nullifies a history of being clutch in other games. If you feel that as long as you're not great as long as you're not clutch in the finals or something like that, then we have a conflict in ideology (for lack of a better word) and we'll just have to agree to disagree

 

[mac]

On a side note, did you know Ricky Rubio was a Lakers fan?

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/06/18/wolves.rubio.ap/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2

 

[hoopsfan]

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h166/Teppang/Sasha.jpg

Classic. Thanks Gargy!

 

[Chupacabra]

On a side note, did you know Ricky Rubio was a Lakers fan?

http://www.nba.com/2010/news/06/18/wolves.rubio.ap/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt2

Now not only Am i glad that we didnt draft him, im going to boo him. Hes contracted to play for the Wolves and hes saying hes a 7akers fan?? Wow. Now i REALLY hope the USA team HUMILIATES the spanish team!

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

I have a question for you. Lebron screwed up a game (game 5?) against the Celtics this year. Does that mean he choked, that he's scared, and that he's not going to be on the same level as the other greats?

My point is you are putting too much into the value of "game 7 of the finals". While it is technically an extremely important game, ultimately it's still a game, same as any other game. We all know how disgustingly clutch Kobe can be, or has been in many games - perhaps not in game 7s or elimination games but definitely in the regular season and other playoff games. So my second question to you is whether a history of bad elimination games nullifies a history of being clutch in other games. If you feel that as long as you're not great as long as you're not clutch in the finals or something like that, then we have a conflict in ideology (for lack of a better word) and we'll just have to agree to disagree

Lebron did not play well. Everyone gave him a lot of grief about it. More than they did to kobe even though kobe shot his team out of the game and was a detriment to his team for most of the game. Nerves/choke probably had a little to do with it for Bron but probably less because it wasn't an elimination game 7.

Ask ANYONE, they will tell you that YES, game 7 in the finals is 1000s of times bigger than a regular season game. It sure as hell is NOT "same as any other game" like you said. If you really think that then I don't know what you are watching.

I don't consider Lebron great yet. He hasn't done enough when it counts the most. kobe did not just choke in this game 7 finals. He also had the one against the Pistons, the game 7 against Suns that he quit or got shut down, take your pick. Losing a 3-1 series lead to the suns. Losing a 24 pt lead in the 3rd at home in the 08 finals, getting blown out by 39 pts in elimination game in 08. Ask yourself, did Magic Johnson ever do something similar to these? If not, why should kobe be considered the same level as him or better?

Why does kobe get a pass? Is he not suppose to be the best player on earth and the most clutch??? How can such a player not deliver in his moment? It may sound tough and unfair but it is very very tough to be the amongst the greatest and kobe does not measure up to those guys because of these choke moments when he is SUPPOSE to deliver. You can't disappear in the most important games of your career and be great. It doesn't work that way. Being clutch in regular season games doesn't count. There are many athletes in major sports that do well normally but choke in playoffs/finals and they are called out. kobe should be treated the same.

I rate kobe above other good players/stars like Joe Johnson, Nash, even Wade/LeBron for now in terms of overall career. But none of these guys are amongst the greatest in my book right now. There are only very few all time greats and kobe does not measure up with Jordan, Magic, Russell, Kareem, Bird.... etc

 

[Peter_Gibbons]

Now not only Am i glad that we didnt draft him, im going to boo him. Hes contracted to play for the Wolves and hes saying hes a Lakers fan?? Wow. Now i REALLY hope the USA team HUMILIATES the spanish team!

Well I'm not surprised. Everyone is a "laker fan" if you know what I mean. Its just the easy popular thing to say.

 

[VF21]

Of course, no hard feelings ever. Its all a discussion and we have difference of opinions. I don't know what lg.net is, maybe its the eletronics brand company or a lakers forum. No need for me to waste my time. I expect homers in lakers forums. Just "odd" to have one on a Kings forum.

Just a brief bit of information for you...

Gargamel and hoopsfan, both Laker fans, have been members here for a very long time. They love the game of basketball and show a lot of respect for it.

There's really no need to resort to calling them Laker homers. They've earned the respect of a lot of Kings fans because they come here to talk hoops and do so respectfully. And, more importantly to me, they've done so as I said over a number of years.

Gargy and hoopsie are good folk who just got dropped on their heads at an early age and, unfortunately, the first thing they saw when they came to must have been some kind of Laker memorabilia.

 

[hoopsfan]

Just a brief bit of information for you...

Gargamel and hoopsfan, both Laker fans, have been members here for a very long time. They love the game of basketball and show a lot of respect for it.

There's really no need to resort to calling them Laker homers. They've earned the respect of a lot of Kings fans because they come here to talk hoops and do so respectfully. And, more importantly to me, they've done so as I said over a number of years.

Gargy and hoopsie are good folk who just got dropped on their heads at an early age and, unfortunately, the first thing they saw when they came to must have been some kind of Laker memorabilia.

Thanks VF....well except for that last part!

Glad last nights game was a good battle.