Should Ron be on the team at all?

[VF21]

Better than what? We're under .500 since he's been here, even if you only count the games that he's played in. Positive influence on whom? Who on the Kings plays better because of Ron Artest?

Excellent questions.

No, he really shouldn't. He not only does not fit, he is an active impediment to the growth of other players who may one day do so. He is also an active impediment to the development of any kind of normal team pysche. And he actually owns Coach Theus's reproductive organs, and apparently keeps them in a chest somewhere ala Davey Jones' heart in the Pirates of the Caribbean series. He says jump, Reggie asks how high.

And of course the big excuse for keeping him -- he is a great defender and the rest of the team is miserable -- of course sounds fine until you consider how completely ineffective and impactless he has been on our defense after that first 2 month period. The last couple of years Ron has been here and we have gone right on being awful. With Ron we are neither tough, defensive, nor smart and unselfish. This does not point to Ron as the cause of this disease. Its just clear that he is not the cure, and him being a savior on that front is clearly belied by all the evidence. And therefore no excuse to keep him in the face of the other issues.

Quite possibly the best summary statement of the whole Artest scenario I've seen.

If any one thing ON THE COURT has turned me away from Artest, it's the total melt-down of his defensive play. People look at the past and pretend it's how things still are, just like a number of us - myself included - once harbored hope that Webber would return to his former skillset. Webber didn't and Artest won't. Time marches on and players get slower. It happens despite their most fervent wishes and desires.

And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, if he's NOT the defensive specialist he once was, he's not worth keeping.

 

[DirtyAcres]

And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, if he's NOT the defensive specialist he once was, he's not worth keeping.

If he didn't have to carry this team on his back offensively I guarantee you'd be seeing the defensive presence he's known for.

 

[DirtyAcres]

Positive influence on whom?

Do I really need to pull up the numerous quotes from his teammates?

 

[upinsmoke]

If any one thing ON THE COURT has turned me away from Artest, it's the total melt-down of his defensive play. People look at the past and pretend it's how things still are, just like a number of us - myself included - once harbored hope that Webber would return to his former skillset. Webber didn't and Artest won't. Time marches on and players get slower. It happens despite their most fervent wishes and desires.

And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, if he's NOT the defensive specialist he once was, he's not worth keeping.

The man is 2nd in the nba in steals and guards 2-5 LOL what in the world are you talking about.

 

[Warhawk]

The man is 2nd in the nba in steals and guards 2-5 LOL what in the world are you talking about.

LOL if you've watched him over the years, he has slowed down. Yes, he can guard multiple positions and gets a lot of steals, but more players are getting around him than before and he is no longer the "lock down" defender he used to be. Is he still good? Of course. Is he still the defender he used to be? No. Whether due to age or injury, he has slowed a bit.

And the best time to get value for the dollar in trade is before the skills really begin to diminish.

He hasn't been able to pull this team above 0.500 (nuch less the championship he keeps saying he'll win). He's not a miracle worker, and his presence has been very disruptive to the team whether you want to acknoledge it or not.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

If any one thing ON THE COURT has turned me away from Artest, it's the total melt-down of his defensive play. People look at the past and pretend it's how things still are, just like a number of us - myself included - once harbored hope that Webber would return to his former skillset. Webber didn't and Artest won't. Time marches on and players get slower. It happens despite their most fervent wishes and desires.

And, as has been pointed out repeatedly, if he's NOT the defensive specialist he once was, he's not worth keeping.

The man is 2nd in the nba in steals and guards 2-5 LOL what in the world are you talking about.

Camby led the league in blocks, and he's a horrible defender.

 

[uolj]

Camby led the league in blocks, and he's a horrible defender.

While I know that just because the sportswriters think something is true doesn't mean it definitely is, could you provide some reasoning to back up that statement considering Camby's Defensive Player of the Year last year and his second place finish this year?

 

[Gary]

I think our team is as good as it can get with Artest, so I say no.. I think we need to look in a different direction because Artest does not fit with our style, and we have reached the max we can with him.

 

[C Diddy]

Camby led the league in blocks, and he's a horrible defender.

Camby must be an illusionist of Copperfield like standing then to convince all the media and all the analysts to vote him DPOY last year.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Obviously. If he deserved to be the DPOY, his team wouldn't be so horrible defensively.

 

[Entity]

Camby must be an illusionist of Copperfield like standing then to convince all the media and all the analysts to vote him DPOY last year.

LOL. Nice

what i can't figure is Artest averages the same fg% as Martin they average the same amount of shot attempts given Kevins attempts from the line. Ron averages more rebounds more assists more steals. Yet Ron's offense destroys the team? How can that be when he has the same fg% as the golden boy. Most fans love Kevin as do I. So why should we not love Ron when he shoots the same % + gives you more hustle, heart, rebounds, steals, assist and down right intimidation factor.

 

[uolj]

First, I doubt their scoring efficiency is the same. You can't just add in fg attempts based off Martin's free throws.

Regardless, Two guys with the same stats can affect the team in different ways. If one guy dominates the ball and plays outside the offense, then that can easily have a detrimental on the rest of the team. It might be ok (or even good) for a star player to have that ability on a contending team, but on a team trying to develop players and turn itself into a contender it can be stifling.

 

[Entity]

First, I doubt their scoring efficiency is the same. You can't just add in fg attempts based off Martin's free throws.

Regardless, Two guys with the same stats can affect the team in different ways. If one guy dominates the ball and plays outside the offense, then that can easily have a detrimental on the rest of the team. It might be ok (or even good) for a star player to have that ability on a contending team, but on a team trying to develop players and turn itself into a contender it can be stifling.

Uhm yes you can add ft attempts in essence of fg attempts. those FT don't come from him standing around biting his nails. It comes from fouls in which he was attempting a shot and got fouled. Now I assume you watch the games and know that Kevin Martin isn't just getting handed ft attempts from thin air. He is attempting a shot at the time therefore if not fouled would go as a shot attempt. so with 9.5 ft attempts per game that is
direct correlation with at least 2 shot attempts per game and thats me giving him 5.5 attempts because of loose ball fouls or what not.

Now I am sure Jerry Reynolds would disagree he is in complete aww of shot attempts vs. points. If Kevin went to the line 10 times going 10-10 and never got a shot attempt tallied to him Jerry would freak and go OMG Kevin has 10 pts and hasn't attempted a shot. How does he do it he is a god.

 

[Kingzrool]

Ron, you either love him or you hate him. I think that is all this thread really proves. I'd bet that an "I do not care" option would have been wildy unsuccessful.

 

[Warhawk]

Uhm yes you can add ft attempts in essence of fg attempts. those FT don't come from him standing around biting his nails. It comes from fouls in which he was attempting a shot and got fouled. Now I assume you watch the games and know that Kevin Martin isn't just getting handed ft attempts from thin air. He is attempting a shot at the time therefore if not fouled would go as a shot attempt. so with 9.5 ft attempts per game that is
direct correlation with at least 2 shot attempts per game and thats me giving him 5.5 attempts because of loose ball fouls or what not.

Now I am sure Jerry Reynolds would disagree he is in complete aww of shot attempts vs. points. If Kevin went to the line 10 times going 10-10 and never got a shot attempt tallied to him Jerry would freak and go OMG Kevin has 10 pts and hasn't attempted a shot. How does he do it he is a god.

Kevin also takes all FT resulting from technical fouls, etc. They are not all during shot attempts. Also, Kevin does very well at and-1 situations, where he makes the shot and gets the FT. I think your assumptions are not correct here.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Ron, you either love him or you hate him. I think that is all this thread really proves.

Nah, I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't feel too strongly either way.

 

[Entity]

Kevin also takes all FT resulting from technical fouls, etc. They are not all during shot attempts. Also, Kevin does very well at and-1 situations, where he makes the shot and gets the FT. I think your assumptions are not correct here.

Geez Bricklayer explained this perfectly one time. So your telling me that Kevin don't have at least 2 shot attempts per game in which he is fouled and doesn't make the shot? That all 9.5 attempts are and 1's and techs?

I am astounded to the fact that this is what is highlighted in my statement. Did I mention they have the same fg% and Ron has more rebounds, assists, steals?

 

[upinsmoke]

Okay let me ask the people against Ron being on the team something. What would you want to do with artest if he does not opt out. (which it looks like is not happening)
Who would you trade for the guy and how would it improve the team and be realistic on the trades. Because I hear alot of comments like "anyone would do just to get rid of him" and "he is messing up the chemistry" but the rest of the squad have all made comments that they enjoy playing with Artest not to mention he is a match up nightmare for other teams.

Side notes Artest's contract expires this year.

 

[Warhawk]

Geez Bricklayer explained this perfectly one time. So your telling me that Kevin don't have at least 2 shot attempts per game in which he is fouled and doesn't make the shot? That all 9.5 attempts are and 1's and techs?

I am astounded to the fact that this is what is highlighted in my statement. Did I mention they have the same fg% and Ron has more rebounds, assists, steals?

No, but I am saying that your assumption that all his FT attempts take shots away from others is all wet.

And yes, Ron has more rebounds and assists and steals. He's also been in the league 5 years longer than Kevin.

If you look at Ron's 4th year stats vs. Kevin last year, you get:

Ron / Kevin
0.411 / 0.456 - FG
0.215 / 0.402 - 3-pt
0.733 / 0.869 - FT
5.0 / 4.5 - Reb
1.8 / 2.1 - Assist
2.4 / 1.0 - Steals

10.9 / 23.7 - Points

Kevin is better or *nearly* equal to all of Ron's stats you mentioned in everything except steals and scores twice as many points.

Kevin has said his focus is to improve every year, including defense.

Yes, Ron is a very good player. I am not disputing that. And I am not the one drawing comparisons to Kevin (just responding with some facts), as they are different players and different types of players. But one has been very disruptive/difficult to deal with to the coach and team in various ways. The other has not. You can't just ignore that part of him and wish it away, as much as you'd like to....

 

[Entity]

I never said Kevin was stealing shots from others. I just stated fact not assumption that Kevin misses shots when fould and goes to the line for at least 4 times a game because of that on average. I am not saying Kevin shouldn't be taking those shots. I am not saying Kevin shouldn't take more than Ron. I am saying Ron is an asset just like Kevin is. In fact I would like to see them both average 17 shots a game at 45% or greater.

 

[uolj]

Uhm yes you can add ft attempts in essence of fg attempts.

You missed the point.

You were trying to argue that they are equally as efficient at scoring (when you said their FG% are about the same) and that they shoot just as much (when you said they have equal attempts if you add in the possessions used for free throws).

If you want to include free throws, then Martin is a more efficient scorer. If you don't, then he shoots less. You can't have both.

(I think including the possessions from free throws makes most sense, and in that category Artest is less efficient.)

 

[Warhawk]

I am saying Ron is an asset just like Kevin is.

I agree. I just think this particular asset should be moved for the betterment of the team. Nobody doubts his talent. I like Ron's ability and drive. Really, I do. I don't like his disruptiveness to the team and community and his dogged resolve to take over games all by himself and pound the rock is annoying as all get out.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Okay let me ask the people against Ron being on the team something. What would you want to do with artest if he does not opt out.

I want Artest to get the Marvin K. Mooney treatment.

 

[Entity]

I agree. I just think this particular asset should be moved for the betterment of the team. Nobody doubts his talent. I like Ron's ability and drive. Really, I do. I don't like his disruptiveness to the team and community and his dogged resolve to take over games all by himself and pound the rock is annoying as all get out.

I don't agree with his disruptiveness to the team and community. I personally don't believe that to be a factor at all. No need to argue as thats my personal belief.

I said from the get go I didn't like we he completely takes over games by himself. Which in some cases it is probably for the best and some for the worse. He and Reggie need to find that healthy medium. Also watch some of the close games when Brad or Kevin or Garcia they defer the ball to Ron because of his mismatch or because they feel confident in him whatever it is. Fact is I have seen times when Kevin (our best scorer hands down) touches it for 1 second then passes it off in the last few min of the game. Now if I am Ron and I am seeing that then I have no other choice but, to take it upon myself to score the ball when I am the second best scorer. Heart goes a long way.

 

[Gary]

Okay let me ask the people against Ron being on the team something. What would you want to do with artest if he does not opt out. (which it looks like is not happening)
Who would you trade for the guy and how would it improve the team and be realistic on the trades. Because I hear alot of comments like "anyone would do just to get rid of him" and "he is messing up the chemistry" but the rest of the squad have all made comments that they enjoy playing with Artest not to mention he is a match up nightmare for other teams.

Side notes Artest's contract expires this year.

I guess I will be the first to answer this..

If he does not opt out I would look at moving him over the summer. He's our best overall player, but a bit too old in basketball terms to start building a bad team around him. With the amount of years it's going to take the Kings to contend again it's probably in our best interest to move him. I would be happy with a Bibby like trade to bring in some young talent or a draft pick (or both)...

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

You're not the first person to answer that.

 

[Gary]

You're not the first person to answer that.

First to quote him after him asking the question.. But I know what tyou mean. It's been asked 100000 times. And answered about that many times too.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

First to quote him after him asking the question..

You're not the first to do that, either.

 

[upinsmoke]

I guess I will be the first to answer this..

If he does not opt out I would look at moving him over the summer. He's our best overall player, but a bit too old in basketball terms to start building a bad team around him. With the amount of years it's going to take the Kings to contend again it's probably in our best interest to move him. I would be happy with a Bibby like trade to bring in some young talent or a draft pick (or both)...

He's 28 years old LOL thats prime age because you still have the athletisim but with experience. Also the Bibby trade was to bring in Expiring contracts which Ron has this year so...?

 

[uolj]

It's going to take at least two more years and likely closer to five before the Kings can be legitimate contenders again. Artest will be in his thirties.

Artest is potentially worth more than just his contract expiring, so if you can get draft picks or something else of more value then it is worth it to move him.