Congratulations to the Patriots

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#31
That having been said, Bill Polian, as a member of the competition committee, played a role in the long-standing rules regarding defensive holding and illegal contact down the field being enforced, when they hadn't been for several seasons. The rules are the rules; when they're not being enforced and your team suffers because of it, are you supposed to eat your words? What would want your team to do?
The rules as they are now being enforced make defending the pass consistently next to impossible. Polian invested heavily in Manning and giving him talented receivers so I don't blame him for doing it, but don't be upset that Belichick and Pioli were smart enough to recognize the direction the NFL was trending and making the decision that they could do it better and giving Brady the tools that Manning has had his entire career.

Secondly, I have NEVER called Tom Brady a system quarterback. I have repeatedly said that I would have voted for Tom Brady to win the MVP award last season, over LaDanian Tomlinson and Peyton Manning. I have, however, scoffed at the idea that he's better than Peyton Manning (and, by extension, guys like Dan Marino who never won a Super Bowl) because he played on a superior team that won three Super Bowls. But enough about that.
Fair enough, but I'd say Tommy now has the distinction of having more rings and the stats to back up whatever claim he'd like to make. :)

In any event, I find the hate refreshing. Sure beats a bajillion bandwagon fans claiming they have loved the Patriots from day one.
 
#32
The rules as they are now being enforced make defending the pass consistently next to impossible.
No they don't. For undisciplined cover guys who don't know how to bump and run effectively, it makes it harder to cover good receivers. But guys like Asante Samuel, Champ Bailey, Chris McAlister, Rashean Mathis, Nate Clements, Charles Woodson and Al Harris have excelled over the past few seasons at man coverage. Zone guys like Ed Reed and Bob Sanders (and, this season, the Colts cornerbacks Marlin Jackson and Kelvin Hayden) play off the ball particularly well and stop big gains with their solid tackling. Defending the pass isn't anywhere near impossible, especially with the lack of good quarterbacks in the NFL.

Polian invested heavily in Manning and giving him talented receivers so I don't blame him for doing it, but don't be upset that Belichick and Pioli were smart enough to recognize the direction the NFL was trending and making the decision that they could do it better and giving Brady the tools that Manning has had his entire career.
I am not upset about anything that the Patriots did to improve their personnel. Going out and getting Moss, Welker and the others was smart. That's what a good front office does in order to stay competitive and, in the Patriots case, dominant. I didn't bring this up; you did.

And, by the way, the difference between the Colts talent and the Patriots talent is that all the offensive weapons the Colts have had the last five-plus years has been home-grown, a product of solid drafting and player development. The Patriots went out and signed free agents; they took the "quick fix" path to upgrading their offense. Nothing wrong with that, but there's a huge difference between what the Colts have built and what the Patriots have put together.

Fair enough, but I'd say Tommy now has the distinction of having more rings and the stats to back up whatever claim he'd like to make. :)
Well, without getting too far into this, I find it ridiculous that the national media takes the sport that is the most team-centric and grades individual players at one particular position based on whether or not they won a championship. At the end of their careers, we will have to sit back and judge Tom Brady and Peyton Manning by their individual accomplishments, including what they were able to do to help their teams win big games, and determine who is/was the best. I don't think it's fair to say that Tom Brady is better than Peyton Manning because he has three Super Bowls and Manning only has one (or, didn't have any). And I never thought it was fair or accurate to say that Manning was better than Brady because he put up better numbers. I think it has to be a healthy mix of a lot of different things that says who is the better player, including the teams they played on and the roles they had to assume for those teams.

You can say that Brady has better numbers now (which isn't true; he has two better numbers: single season passing yardage, and single season touchdowns), or you can say that he has more Super Bowls, or you can even say both. I don't think any of those things necessarily make him the better player.

By the way, this is something that we will probably never agree upon, you being a Patriots fan and me being a Colts fan. I'm more than happen to engage in the discussion with you, but it's going to be a lengthy one, so ...

In any event, I find the hate refreshing. Sure beats a bajillion bandwagon fans claiming they have loved the Patriots from day one.
Again, it's not about hate. It's about not liking. There's a huge difference. I have a great amount of respect for the Patriots, their coach, and their QB. But I don't enjoy seeing them set such historic milestones, and I don't appreciate the way they have approached the game or their opponents this season.
 
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SLAB

Hall of Famer
#33
And, as a Colts fan, seeing Peyton Manning's three-season-old record go down is pretty dissatisfying, especially when it's broken by the guy who is widely regarded as a superior player/quarterback/leader, when I disagree with that opinion. I don't see how any other fan would feel any differently.

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Im not sure about that one. Brady has consistently won without the major pieces that Peyton Manning has had.

During the the Super Bowls in four years can you tell me the top recievers for the Pats? Deion Branch, I guess, but anyone else?

I do know that Manning has had people like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, and The Edge around him.

Now look at this year. Brady gets the premier pieces and check out the numbers. I think if he had that kind of personel around him that Peyton has, in a dome no less, he would have even this season trumped in terms of production.
 
#34
Im not sure about that one. Brady has consistently won without the major pieces that Peyton Manning has had.

During the the Super Bowls in four years can you tell me the top recievers for the Pats? Deion Branch, I guess, but anyone else?

I do know that Manning has had people like Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Brandon Stokley, and The Edge around him.

Now look at this year. Brady gets the premier pieces and check out the numbers. I think if he had that kind of personel around him that Peyton has, in a dome no less, he would have even this season trumped in terms of production.
That's the problem I have, right there. Brady hasn't won by himself. It's impossible in football; it's more of a team sport than any other sport there's ever been. It doesn't matter how good you are at whatever position you play, if you're team isn't good, you don't win, period. Ask Barry Sanders.

So when you say that Brady won with inferior players, I ask you to look at the other side of the ball. The Patriots won their first two championships in 2001 and 2003 on the strength of their defense. Tom Brady didn't have to be the catalyst in either of those seasons. In 2004, they had a much better running game and still had a dominant defense. You can't say that if Peyton Manning had the privilege of playing for the Patriots with a top five defense in those three seasons that the Patriots would not have won. You can't say that if you put Tom Brady on the Colts those three seasons that they would have played better than they did. (For instance, the 2003 Patriots only scored 32 offensive touchdowns, but they only gave up 23 touchdowns altogether that season; on the other hand, the Colts scored 45 offensive touchdowns, but gave up 37. Who had the better circumstances?)

Likewise, you give Peyton Manning the weapons Tom Brady had this season (Moss, Welker, Watson, Stallworth > Wayne, Gonzo, Clark, ???), and he probably puts up similar numbers.

Anyways, my point is that the Patriots offense wasn't winning those Super Bowls for them alone. Tom Brady wasn't playing 1-11. In most cases, the defense was the dominant unit on the team, and the offense was secondary. And that's not necessarily a knock on Tom Brady. All I'm saying is that his three Super Bowls don't automatically make him a better quarterback, and neither do his numbers. There are dozens of other factors that you must take into consideration before summarily deciding that three Super Bowls with lesser offensive players means Brady is the better QB. I must disagree with that assessment.
 
#35
And about this whole "if Brady played in a Dome" thing, in 2004, Manning threw almost half his touchdowns on the road (22-27, if I'm not mistaken). He had two HUGE games in Detroit and Chicago, two known cold weather stadiums, in November.

If Brady played in a dome, his numbers might have been better, but Manning plays just as well on the road anymore as he does in the RCA Dome.
 
#38
18-0......AFC Champs. One more win for history. Although not a Pats fan, I appreciate the difficulty of what the Patriots are doing in todays NFL. Congratulations Patriots and Patriot fans!
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#40
My only real disappointment is that it wasn't the game I was hoping it would be. Without LT out there it just wasn't the same. But congratulations to the Patriots for getting the job done.