I'm in the minority

[Vlade4GM]

Unless we know for a fact that the Maloofs were behind a certain move you have to put the credit/blame on Petrie. That's just the way things work, he's the GM, he's in charge of personnel. Also it's nice to have a GM who will stand up to an owner. Now I'm much more happier having Petrie run the team than the Maloofs, he's the bball guy and he should be running things. However I don't have extreme confidence in him just for the simple reason that the webber trade has blown up in our faces, the artest trade has blown up in our faces, and we should've starting truly rebuilding (not this rebuilding on the fly crap) once webber was traded. Not sign John Salmons to a stupid contract, which was a worthless move now that we'll inevitably be rebuilding. He should've drafted a pg prospect last year when very good pg prospects like Marcus Williams, Rajon Rondo, and Sergio Rodrgieuz were still on the board not a future bench player in Douby. I still have optimism that he can get it down if he's given full control, he's not an idiot and I think he'll do the right thing but I don't have confidence in his ability to stand up to the Maloofs and assert his will.

 

[VF21]

If this were true, why did they let RA go?

I think, in the Maloofs minds (I am not agreeing), letting him go was the first step to making the necessary changes to actually get a championship.

A championship is very important to the Maloofs, how to get one is the question. True, they need to let GP do his job, but I think a championship is their goal, not "to fill the seats and vie for 8th playoff spot". The Kings are mostly about $$ for them, but make no mistake, ego is also playing a part.

I am going to the game tonight (thanx again you know who), and like it or not, I will root for the Kings to win. I will be happy if they lose, but I refuse to go and cheer for a loss. IMO that is pathetic.

Great post. I had the same attitude when I went to the Jazz game. Draft be damned; it was FUN to be part of the magic again, if only for a couple of hours.

Have a great time!!!

 

[VF21]

Unless we know for a fact that the Maloofs were behind a certain move you have to give the credit/blame on Petrie. That's just the way things work, he's the GM, he's in charge of personnel. Also it's nice to have a GM who will stand up to an owner. Now I'm much more happier having Petrie run the team than the Maloofs, he's the bball guy and he should be running things. However I don't have extreme confidence in him just for the simple reason that the webber trade has blown up in our faces, the artest trade has blown up in our faces, and we should've starting truly rebuilding (not this rebuilding on the fly crap) once webber was traded. Not sign John Salmons to a stupid contract, which was a worthless move now that we'll inevitably be rebuilding. I still have optimism that he can get it down if he's given full control, he's not an idiot and I think he'll do the right thing but I don't have confidence in his ability to stand up to the Maloofs and assert his will.

Gotta disagree here. Every team needs a good bench and even with rebuilding, I think Salmons will be an asset. Plus he's just old enough to add a bit of veteran experience but not so old he'll be useless in a couple of years.

EDIT: And the Artest trade didn't blow up in our faces. Look at the person we traded him for. How much game time has he seen this year? We would have had to either drop Peja or resign him for a very large amount of money. That trade, in and of itself, was not a mistake.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Gotta disagree here. Every team needs a good bench and even with rebuilding, I think Salmons will be an asset. Plus he's just old enough to add a bit of veteran experience but not so old he'll be useless in a couple of years.

EDIT: And the Artest trade didn't blow up in our faces. Look at the person we traded him for. How much game time has he seen this year? We would have had to either drop Peja or resign him for a very large amount of money. That trade, in and of itself, was not a mistake.

That was not the time to "shore up the bench", saving cap space to make a big free agent signing is significantly more important. You start using the MLE on the bench guys once you've established your core.

I hear what you're saying about Artest but whether it was poor or good at the time doesn't do squat for us right now. The fact is acquiring Ron has done nothing for the long term of our franchise and has hurt us in some ways. His mere presence has caused a long delay in the rebuilding process and he'll inevitably be gone from this team. If by some miracle he brings some valuable assets in the future I'll change my stance, but the move has not worked out very well for us regardless of whether it was a "good" move at the time. We would've been better off losing Peja for nothing and then starting the rebuilding process for real.

 

[Troy]

Gotta disagree here. Every team needs a good bench and even with rebuilding, I think Salmons will be an asset. Plus he's just old enough to add a bit of veteran experience but not so old he'll be useless in a couple of years.

EDIT: And the Artest trade didn't blow up in our faces. Look at the person we traded him for. How much game time has he seen this year? We would have had to either drop Peja or resign him for a very large amount of money. That trade, in and of itself, was not a mistake.

I definately agree with the Artest/Peja trade...we did get the better player not just due to Peja being hurt. It's not a matter of the better player per say, Artest is a All-Star level player, it's just his attitude and baggage he carries around that leaves anything in doubt.

We've gotten the better end of the deal on more then 1 occasion from our dealings with Indy, the Miller trade as well.
Now if only we could convince them to take K9 and Bibby off our hands for O'Neal then we'll really be doing good!!!

 

[Superman]

If this were true, why did they let RA go?

I think, in the Maloofs minds (I am not agreeing), letting him go was the first step to making the necessary changes to actually get a championship.

A championship is very important to the Maloofs, how to get one is the question. True, they need to let GP do his job, but I think a championship is their goal, not "to fill the seats and vie for 8th playoff spot". The Kings are mostly about $$ for them, but make no mistake, ego is also playing a part.

I am going to the game tonight (thanx again you know who), and like it or not, I will root for the Kings to win. I will be happy if they lose, but I refuse to go and cheer for a loss. IMO that is pathetic.

Unfortunately for the team, that was apparently a decision they made based on their personal dislike of Rick Adelman. It wasn't a purely basketball-related decision. They used the "we need to make changes in order to win" theme in order to quell the rebellion, so to speak, but I don't put the Adelman dismissal under the umbrella of doing what it takes to win a championship.

In fact, my trust in the Maloofs is what's gone out the window over the past three years. Not in Petrie. He's apparently just their puppet right now, which makes him worthless. But if they let him do his job, we'll be okay. He hasn't given me any reason to believe that he's incapable of building a team.

 

[Superman]

I doubt Peja would've been traded for another small forward if we still had GW.

My memory is pretty hazy on this, but who else was available that we'd have given Peja up for? He was widely considered to be underpaid as a primary scorer on a team in contention for a championship (even though we weren't really contending anymore). Artest was pretty much the best deal we could have gotten, which really showed with the way we finished the season.

I wish we'd kept Wallace, but that's because we don't have the team we had when he was here. There was no room for him in Adelman's rotation, and it wasn't in the "plans" at the time to make room for him. It should have been, but let's call a spade a spade. Gerald Wallace just did not fit in. I'm reluctant to drag Petrie over the coals for that one, as if Gerald Wallace is franchise talent.

Again, I wish we had him now, but those were the breaks. Lack of foresight on a series of moves cost us a good role player, but we'd still be a sad sight even if we still had Wallace.

 

[VF21]

That was not the time to "shore up the bench", saving cap space to make a big free agent signing is significantly more important. You start using the MLE on the bench guys once you've established your core.

But that wasn't the situation at the time. Petrie went out and got the best available player after Wells did not sign with us. And, all things considered, I have no problem with the person he selected.

 

[Vlade4GM]

But that wasn't the situation at the time. Petrie went out and got the best available player after Wells did not sign with us. And, all things considered, I have no problem with the person he selected.

Well it should've been the situation at the time, that's my whole point. Salmons is just an example of the refusal to rebuild.

 

[VF21]

I wish we'd kept Wallace, but that's because we don't have the team we had when he was here. There was no room for him in Adelman's rotation, and it wasn't in the "plans" at the time to make room for him. It should have been, but let's call a spade a spade. Gerald Wallace just did not fit in. I'm reluctant to drag Petrie over the coals for that one, as if Gerald Wallace is franchise talent.

Yep. And people keep conveniently forgetting that Gerald Wallace's work ethic was NOWHERE near what it is now. I'm glad Gerald has found a place to flourish but there is no guarantee he ever would have done so here. Sometimes pieces just don't fit in one puzzle but are perfect in another.

It's real easy for some people to go back and decide, in retrospect, that Petrie made a bad decision. When you look at the whole picture, however, I can easily live with Wallace being exposed to the draft. Had he not turned himself around, very few people who post here would even remember his name.

 

[VF21]

Well it should've been the situation at the time, that's my whole point. Salmons is just an example of the refusal to rebuild.

Whatever. Sorry, but you and I are just diametrically opposed to how we view this team.

Once something has happened, it's over and done. You can't go back and change it. You act as though you think you'd make a better general manager than Geoff Petrie, without knowing everything Geoff knew in making some of the decisions he's made.

Sorry, but I'll stick with Petrie. And I'll stick with discussing things that happened instead of always playing "what if"...

 

[Superman]

We would've been better off losing Peja for nothing and then starting the rebuilding process for real.

I disagree wholeheartedly. I'd be prone to concede this point if Artest had an albatross contract, but that's not the case either.

There are a number of other moves that have put obstacles in the path of this rebuild - a step that no one in upper management has admitted we're even going to go through. Webber for unmoveable trash (and throwing Matt Barnes in that deal), huge contracts to Bibby and Miller, which everyone of us supported at the time, John Salmons being overpaid, and others. To say that trading Peja for Artest is hurting the franchise's chances of getting back into contention is a bit much.

Especially when you consider the extreme likelihood that we would NOT have just let Peja walk for nothing. We probably would have resigned him to a deal that hurt our cap status even more.

 

[Vlade4GM]

Whatever. Sorry, but you and I are just diametrically opposed to how we view this team.

Once something has happened, it's over and done. You can't go back and change it. You act as though you think you'd make a better general manager than Geoff Petrie, without knowing everything Geoff knew in making some of the decisions he's made.

Sorry, but I'll stick with Petrie. And I'll stick with discussing things that happened instead of always playing "what if"...

No I don't act that way. I'm not trying to play what if, I'm saying this is what should've happened. I don't think it takes a genius to see that we were heading towards mediocrity and we should've been rebuilding and not using the MLE on nice players which Salmons is. I'm not saying I don't like him just that he's not the kind of addition we needed. I'm doing the same thing everyone else on this thread is doing, looking back and judging what I think should've been done by this org. Why not talk about it? The consequences are right in front of our face right now.

 

[Entity]

so you think it's no biggie the kings slipped from #6 to #10 in the draft. you think they can rebuild through trade and free agency. fine.

WHY THE HECK WOULD YOU NOT WANT THE HIGHER PICK AS A TRADING CHIP THEN?

and for all the petrie is a genius/competent GM backers out there, fine, he's had his successes. what i'm looking at is his more recent history, one that is basically full of f*ck ups. the league has caught on to his game plan, and they sure as hell aren't dealing gold for trash anymore.

But we didn't drop from #6 to #10 in the draft. The draft order is not set. Just because you go from 6 to 10 in the standing for the lottery doesn't mean you do the same in the draft. Its a lottery we could be the last team in the lottery and still get the 5th pick. Sure we get a better chance with the 6th spot but its not a certainty as its not if we get the 10 spot.

Any way who do you want or who does anybody want in the draft. I have seen around 10 names come up besides the top 2 so who is to say we can't get who you want with the 10th pick or even the 14th pick. Now if there was a certain player that can't be had after the 6th pick i would understand your plight but, who is it that you want?

 

[VF21]

Any way who do you want or who does anybody want in the draft. I have seen around 10 names come up besides the top 2 so who is to say we can't get who you want with the 10th pick or even the 14th pick. Now if there was a certain player that can't be had after the 6th pick i would understand your plight but, who is it that you want?

There are TONS of threads about who people want in the draft in the Personnel Moves forum.

 

[Vlade4GM]

I disagree wholeheartedly. I'd be prone to concede this point if Artest had an albatross contract, but that's not the case either.

There are a number of other moves that have put obstacles in the path of this rebuild - a step that no one in upper management has admitted we're even going to go through. Webber for unmoveable trash (and throwing Matt Barnes in that deal), huge contracts to Bibby and Miller, which everyone of us supported at the time, John Salmons being overpaid, and others. To say that trading Peja for Artest is hurting the franchise's chances of getting back into contention is a bit much.

Especially when you consider the extreme likelihood that we would NOT have just let Peja walk for nothing. We probably would have resigned him to a deal that hurt our cap status even more.

Artest has hurt in the sense that he's made the FO prolong the rebuilding process. And we haven't really gained anything from having him in the long term or the short term except a team just good enough to not get a high lotto pick.

 

[VF21]

Artest has hurt in the sense that he's made the FO prolong the rebuilding process. And we haven't really gained anything from having him in the long term or the short term except a team just good enough to not get a high lotto pick.

LOL! Sorry, but now you're just being silly. Had Mike Bibby had a decent year OR Brad Miller had a decent year OR if we had a coach who knew what he was doing, we would have been in the playoffs, which is what a lot of people wanted. We wouldn't necessarily have done very well, but you continue to post comments as though you think Petrie is satisfied with what's happened. He's NOT, I can pretty much guarantee it.

The Maloofs want a winning team; Petrie wants a winning team. It's not just the fans. The fans don't know all that's gone on or what Petrie's long-term plan is.

Rebuilding is an ongoing process. In an ideal world, you're able to rebuild AND keep your team somewhat in contention. They tried, but it hasn't worked. I think we'll see progress this off-season. And I'm willing to wait and see what happens.

I guess I'm just protesting about the always negative attitude you seem to have towards the entire team, with the exception of a couple of the kids, and the management.

The Maloofs have been very, very, very good for this franchise. Geoff Petrie took us closer to the top of the mountain than we ever dreamed of. Instead of always finding a way to belittle them, I guess I just wish you'd give them some credit. It doesn't always have to be confrontational, does it?

 

[fnordius]

My memory is pretty hazy on this, but who else was available that we'd have given Peja up for?

I'm sure that there were other options, but Peja was an expiring. Not a huge one, of course, but an expiring just the same. If we couldn't get kids for him, or a different ender + a draft pick, something like that, we could have just let him go.

We were in freefall, and the Artest trade slowed us down. Instead of just sucking and getting it over with, we spent 2 years getting Douby, Salmons, and whatever we manage in the upcoming draft. We opened the Artest parachute, and are headed for the ground at 30 or 40 mph. It's going to take us a while to hit, and instead of splattering and getting it over with, we're going to be spending a long time in a wheelchair.

We might have been better off just finishing last year with 30-some wins, picking someone like Patrick O'Bryant instead of Douby, and letting Peja go. The cap space would be very handy right now.

 

[Entity]

There are TONS of threads about who people want in the draft in the Personnel Moves forum.

EXACTLY my point. Tons of threads tons of players. yet slipping from 6 to 10 is a travesty to some ppl. I am sure by the time the 10 pick rolls around there will still be at least half of the players mentioned still available.

My point is why all the hub bub over the drop in the lottery. Mind you it doesn't mean a drop in the draft. better chances sure but better chance at who. Alot of the names in the TONS of threads will still be availbe even at 12 or 14.

 

[fnordius]

In an ideal world, you're able to rebuild AND keep your team somewhat in contention. They tried, but it hasn't worked.

In the real, non-ideal world, has it ever worked for anyone? Maybe the mid-60s Celtics or something? There may well be an exception, some team that rebuilt without pain, but I'm having a hard time thinking of any.

 

[Superman]

I'm sure that there were other options, but Peja was an expiring. Not a huge one, of course, but an expiring just the same. If we couldn't get kids for him, or a different ender + a draft pick, something like that, we could have just let him go.

We were in freefall, and the Artest trade slowed us down. Instead of just sucking and getting it over with, we spent 2 years getting Douby, Salmons, and whatever we manage in the upcoming draft. We opened the Artest parachute, and are headed for the ground at 30 or 40 mph. It's going to take us a while to hit, and instead of splattering and getting it over with, we're going to be spending a long time in a wheelchair.

We might have been better off just finishing last year with 30-some wins, picking someone like Patrick O'Bryant instead of Douby, and letting Peja go. The cap space would be very handy right now.

No it would not be. We'd still be over the cap without Artest's contract, unless I'm mistaken. What's the salary cap this year?

I don't think the Artest trade slowed the rebuild down because I don't think the Maloofs would have just let Peja walk anyway. Just prior to the season he was traded, one of them talked about Peja being a max player. They obviously wanted to keep him; he forced their hand for a trade, if I remember correctly.

And we went out and got the best player we could in a straight up swap. And call me nuts, but I'd rather have psycho RonRon pouring his heart out in the final meaningless games of the season than watch Pretty Peja going through the motions, getting shut down by the likes of Trenton Hassell and Brevin Knight.

 

[Vlade4GM]

No it would not be. We'd still be over the cap without Artest's contract, unless I'm mistaken. What's the salary cap this year?

I don't think the Artest trade slowed the rebuild down because I don't think the Maloofs would have just let Peja walk anyway. Just prior to the season he was traded, one of them talked about Peja being a max player. They obviously wanted to keep him; he forced their hand for a trade, if I remember correctly.

And we went out and got the best player we could in a straight up swap. And call me nuts, but I'd rather have psycho RonRon pouring his heart out in the final meaningless games of the season than watch Pretty Peja going through the motions, getting shut down by the likes of Trenton Hassell and Brevin Knight.

You think the kings would've done as well as they did having peja last year instead of Artest?

 

[fnordius]

No it would not be. We'd still be over the cap without Artest's contract, unless I'm mistaken. What's the salary cap this year?

The salary cap this year is $53.1M, but there are so many loopholes that only two teams in the whole NBA are under cap, Charlotte and Atlanta. Ron's contract is $7.1M this year, headed for $8.5M before it's through. That would be enough to give Kevin a nice extension, and, assuming Corliss will take a pay cut, leave some for Justin and Ronnie.

And yes, Peja was a softie who wasn't helping the team when we traded him. You make that sound like a bad thing, but if you're rebuilding, it isn't. When it's time to win, do it and do it right. When it's time to suck, pull out all the stops and stink like there's no tomorrow. I desperately missed KT the last several games, for just that reason. Losing him was addition by subtraction, and that has hurt us badly.

 

[Superman]

You think the kings would've done as well as they did having peja last year instead of Artest?

No.

 

[Warhawk]

But we didn't drop from #6 to #10 in the draft. The draft order is not set. Just because you go from 6 to 10 in the standing for the lottery doesn't mean you do the same in the draft. Its a lottery we could be the last team in the lottery and still get the 5th pick. Sure we get a better chance with the 6th spot but its not a certainty as its not if we get the 10 spot.

Uh, no. Only the first 3 spots are by lottery, the rest are by season record.

If we fell forom 6th to 10th (or whatever the final tally is in a few games), we shot ourselves in the foot as far as getting one of the top 3 picks (chances drop from 1/6 to 1/20, for instance - hypothetical #s, but you get the idea) AND we cannot get any higher than 10th if we miss out on the first 3 spots. In fact, if #s 11, 12, and 13 get the 1, 2, and 3 spots (HIGHLY unlikely, but possible), we actually drop to #13 in the order.

Compare that (miniscule chances at top 3 picks and probably drafting at 10-13) to decent chance at a 1-3 pick and no worse than 8, and you see the problem.

Dropping spaces like we just did is a killer in the lottery.

That is why so many of us are pretty much writing off the lottery right now....

 

[Kingzrool]

A lot of the names in the TONS of threads will still be available, even at 12 or 14.

Kobe was 13th pick. Right after Potapenko.

 

[fnordius]

Kobe was 13th pick. Right after Potapenko.

Yep. And few teams wanted to take him because he was right out of high school and considered a project and a huge gamble. But Lakers management had tremendous faith in him, enough that they were willing to trade away a high-value veteran (Vlade) to get him.

I believe a trade like that would currently be illegal, since we're now required to have equivalence of pay, and draft picks are officially valued at zero. Not that it matters much to us; Petrie is a very cautious GM when it comes to draft night. He doesn't go for long shots that might bomb. He has also never made a trade to get a draft pick, or a better pick, only traded draft picks away.

There will be some good players that get drafted much later than they should have been -- there almost always are -- but just like we picked Jason Sasser over Ben Wallace, JWill over Pierce and Nowitzki, Jerome James over Brad Miller and Mike James, Ryan Robertson over Manu Ginobili and Raja Bell, Gerald Wallace over Gilbert Arenas, and so on, we are very unlikely to end up with a miraculously fortunate pick this year. Petrie has done quite well at avoiding busts late in the first round, but that's all. He has regularly missed the best guy available in the second round, and he did no better than average in his one prior shot at the lottery. If you're expecting the next Kobe, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

 

[Superman]

If you're expecting the next Kobe, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

I think that's more a testament to Kobe's greatness than Petrie's inability to pick.

I don't fault Petrie for being one of 29 GMs to pass on Gilbert Arenas. Same with Ben Wallace and Manu Ginobili. There's always a player that goes late in the Draft that winds up being better than anyone expected. That's actually the only thing I like about the Draft, but it winds up taking a few years to know who they are.

Anyways, if there is a bonafide difference maker available wherever we wind up picking, then I'm sure GP won't pass on him.

I just don't get this "Petrie doesn't have what it takes" vibe that's been going on here lately. I know he's made mistakes, but it's not like he traded Dirk Nowitzki for Robert Traylor or anything. He knows how to build a team. He built the teams that made the playoffs eight years in a row.

 

[VF21]

... He knows how to build a team. He built the teams that made the playoffs eight years in a row.

And that's what frustrates me the most. People just don't seem to understand what an accomplishment that is... both the building and the making the playoffs.

The Kings ended an awful lot of streaks this season but I suspect they'll be starting a bunch of new ones in the foreseeable future.

 

[HndsmCelt]

To be fair pinpointing this one game and blameing it for the drop in the lotto is a lot like [pointing to the no call elbow to Bibby's nose and blaming that for the loss of the WCF. There were a lot of screw ups that led to this place and the dub win against the pathetic Clips was the LAST one. If the Kings had WANTED to bottom out for the Loto there were numerious times to make decisions that would have resulted in many more losses. Heck some of siad gut the team BEFORE the sesason started. Plenty more opertunities to trade away for expiring contracts were out their early in the season and probably up untill the deadline. Muss could have been fired at any time (not that an interm coach would necessarly been worse) and most importantly several weeks ago when even Stevie Wonder could see where this team was heading the Management could have pulled the plug, asking starters to take care of their hangnails and telling the coaching staff to play the kids as much as possible.

It would seem obvious that none of the above happened and Muss did what he has been doing all season trying to win games. The players did what they have done allseason long, treid to win games. I want to see Muss gone simply beceause he has sucked all season long but the firinegs should not end there, heck he sould be first of a long line of firings and ownership ought to be reevaluting EVERYONE who was responsable.

As I noted elsewhere there is a tiny tiny silver lineing and it is this: The team clearly has a significant amount of tallent but no where near enough to "get er done" but this means that there IS tradeable players on the squad. A consolidation of tallent, and a sharp eye to the 08 off season and draft COULD resurect this franchise in a hurry.