Image of the NBA

[Purple Reign]

Have you ever wondered why when ever the NBA has a brawl or some kind of act of transgression, that the magnifying glass is triple the size of any other sport. Here are some questions to consider....

1. How is it that the NFL's Bengals can have over a dozen arrest in a one year period, but Paul brown Stadium is sold out every Sunday that team plays?

2. How is it that Scott Spiezio (baseball player) can be charged with theft and assault http://cbs2chicago.com/topstories/local_story_280185856.html and I never heard about it?

3. Players such as Tank Johnson (NFL Bears) can be directly involved in not one BUT TWO federal open cases (gun possession and murder) and nobody is questioning the image of the NFL.

4. Why is it that MLB, World Cup Soccer Team, NHL and the entire Heavyweight division of boxing failed miserably in international competiton, but it was the NBA that got blasted beyond measure?

5. Why can Michelle Wie (LPGA) and Sidney Crosby (NHL) turn pro and not go to college but the NBA has an age limit and they have the most successful high school turned pro athletes?

6. How is it that Todd Vertucci and Marty McSorley can almost murder someone on the ice and we all don't trip but Carmelo Anthony can sucker punch a player and will lose millions in endorsement opportunities and suspended pay and the brawl is treated like a multiple homicide was committed?

7. Why is it OK for Manny Ramirez to demand a trade year after year out of Boston and that is "Manny just being Manny", but Allen Iverson demand a trade once, and is considered a malcontent?

8. How can Isaiah Thomas be considered the "anti-Christ" for running the Knicks into the ground but the New York Rangers can have a combined record of 316-359-94 since 1995 and finish higher than fourth 1 time and nobody is hanging their management up on a cross.

I am just asking. Here are a couple of quotes from an article written by Mitch Lawrence of the New York Daily News....


You know who should be laughing about all of this? Roger Goodell. His NFL Cincinnati Bengals are making the great Paul Brown spin. They've had so many arrests this season, their 2006 highlight tape is rumored to be entitled "Stripes Behind Bars."

Then last week, the Chicago Bears' Tank Johnson was found by police to be living in what could have passed for an arsenal. Two days later, Tank's "bodyguard" - think about it, a guy named Tank needs a bodyguard - got blown away at a nightclub. But does anybody ask about the NFL's image problem?

"I don't want to bad-mouth football players, but there's something hypocritical about the system," said Billy Hunter, himself a former defensive back for the Washington Redskins and now head of the NBA players union. "The difference is that the stars who are showcased in the NFL are the white quarterbacks. You see the Mannings; Tom Brady; Drew Brees. And my guy in Green Bay, Brett Favre.
"But every time you see a survey," Hunter said, "the NBA players always score low, in terms of public image."

Help me to understand.

 

[bozzwell]

Now that you mention it, I do agree that NBA athletes seem to be the most scrutinized in all sports. And I always thought there were really ugly racial undertones to many of the "let's clean it up in NBA" so called efforts. Don't get me started there...

 

[Venom]

1. ESPN spent almost an entire quarter talking about the Bengals, it has been a running joke in Simmons' column, and Goodell paid a special visit to Marvin Lewis to address, so I don't understand using the Bengals as an example. People are certainly noticing the Bengals' troubles. Why do they still sell out? Because they are a darn good team and everybody in the NFL sells out, because the NFL is a better league than the NBA.

2. Players in all sports get nickle and dime accusations all the time. You'll hear about it if he's a big enough star.

3. Everybody is talking about Tank Johnson, but he's been a knucklehead forever, and the Bears suspended him. What more do you want? By the way, it's not cool to steal jokes from morning radio DJs. . ."A guy named Tank needs a bodyguard. . ."

4. Uh, everything you mentioned has been a media pinata. Again, what's your point? Sports journalists today pretend that sports have some kind of impact on the real world, and the hyperbole follows. Have you read the kind of garbage fiction Mitch Albom writes, or Lupica? How about Rick Reilly? Those are the three most influential sports writers today, and they're all hacks. The rest of these idiots just follow their leaders. Imagine the kind of quasi-informed preening jackass you see every night on the news programs, and then have them reporting on sports, and you get the current state of affairs.

5. I used to agree with this point, but there is a significant difference. Golf and tennis, you wash out if you don't win. There are no contracts, aside from sponserships. Hockey, soccer and baseball have extensive minor league systems, so they don't typically jump right to the pros. In basketball, they become an immediate albatross around a franchise's neck if they can't play due to the guaranteed contract. I could not care less if they get a college degree, and frankly, neither would there theoretical college coach with the exception of Bob Knight. I only care that they are impacting the game play and salary structure in a negative way.

6. Those two guys received longer suspensions than Anthony and McSorley did jail time, if memory serves. Again, what's your point?

7. No one has questioned AI's desire to leave Philly. He gets labeled a malcontent because of the "practice" statements. Debate that if you like, but people are set in their ways on that one. I happen to think it was overblown.

8. The Knicks are the signature franchise of the league and Isaih has failed more than once. It's simply bizarre to see a player that good fail so horribly at being a GM.

Ah, the race card. . .cute. I guess Tomlinson doesn't get any run. Or Chad Johnson. Or TO. Or Ray Lewis. Or Vince Young. Or Steve McNair. Or McFlabb. Or Tiki Barber. Or Michael Strahan. . .

 

[VF21]

I'm confused, Purple Reign. Are these YOUR questions or is this a reprint of questions posed elsewhere?

I ask because this is a basketball forum and most of your questions pertain to other sports. And it's not a case of either/or in most of them.

And for the record? I find the racist comment at the end to be particularly without merit. Of course this is the NY Daily News we're talking about. I just have to wonder why you bothered to quote it. It's prejudicial, it's racist and it's wrong.

 

[BigWaxer]

Now that you mention it, I do agree that NBA athletes seem to be the most scrutinized in all sports...

All althletes are, I am sure baseball players feel the same way, especially with the steriod issue. TO probably feels like he is picked on more then anyone (although we know he brings it on himself). Lance Armstrong... I think all athletes are criticized by their respective sports followers for almost anything they do.

What I dont understand is why we see some of the craziest fights in Basketball. You would think with all the hitting that Football would get out of hand, it does at times but we haven't seen a team on team brawl in the NFL for a long time. College well just look at Miami this year.

 

[Purple Reign]

I'm confused, Purple Reign. Are these YOUR questions or is this a reprint of questions posed elsewhere?

I ask because this is a basketball forum and most of your questions pertain to other sports. And it's not a case of either/or in most of them.

And for the record? I find the racist comment at the end to be particularly without merit. Of course this is the NY Daily News we're talking about. I just have to wonder why you bothered to quote it. It's prejudicial, it's racist and it's wrong.

These are my questions. I am just trying to make comparisons with the NBA and other sports.

 

[VF21]

Thank you.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I think there's more to it than race. Race is certainly a factor but not the only one.

One huge factor is that basketball players are marketed individually rather than as teams moreso than in any other sport and there are also fewer basketball players than in any other team sport - hockey and baseball carry 23-25 and football rosters hover around 50. When there are 12 players on an NBA roster and only 8 or 9 that people get exposure to when 1 or 2 bad apples show up they are bound to get a lot more exposure.

Another thing is that basketball players aren't perceived to have paid there dues. This was touched on in the OP, but Michelle Wie is more an exception than a rule and hockey has an entirely different junior and minor league structure than anything basketball has. Hockey players aren't guaranteed millionaires like their basketball counterparts when drafted either and they can still play in US and Canadian universities after they have been drafted. Baseball is the same way, players routinely get drafted out of high school but can play college ball or pay their dues in the minor leagues for years before hitting the show.

The olympic basketball thing is also a bit different than other sports, we usually aren't expected to win at those other sports. Most of those other teams would be satisfied with a medal or even a high finish and go into the tournaments saying as much. The basketball team goes in publically with the attitude that anything less than gold is a failure so of course when they don't get it they are held up to the standard they set.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

*Excellent point by point debunking snipped*

Thank you, I was doing this myself but figured I'd rather address just basketball in my post. But I agree with everything you said.

 

[Purple Reign]

1. ESPN spent almost an entire quarter talking about the Bengals, it has been a running joke in Simmons' column, and Goodell paid a special visit to Marvin Lewis to address, so I don't understand using the Bengals as an example. People are certainly noticing the Bengals' troubles. Why do they still sell out? Because they are a darn good team and everybody in the NFL sells out, because the NFL is a better league than the NBA.

2. Players in all sports get nickle and dime accusations all the time. You'll hear about it if he's a big enough star.

3. Everybody is talking about Tank Johnson, but he's been a knucklehead forever, and the Bears suspended him. What more do you want? By the way, it's not cool to steal jokes from morning radio DJs. . ."A guy named Tank needs a bodyguard. . ."

4. Uh, everything you mentioned has been a media pinata. Again, what's your point? Sports journalists today pretend that sports have some kind of impact on the real world, and the hyperbole follows. Have you read the kind of garbage fiction Mitch Albom writes, or Lupica? How about Rick Reilly? Those are the three most influential sports writers today, and they're all hacks. The rest of these idiots just follow their leaders. Imagine the kind of quasi-informed preening jackass you see every night on the news programs, and then have them reporting on sports, and you get the current state of affairs.

5. I used to agree with this point, but there is a significant difference. Golf and tennis, you wash out if you don't win. There are no contracts, aside from sponserships. Hockey, soccer and baseball have extensive minor league systems, so they don't typically jump right to the pros. In basketball, they become an immediate albatross around a franchise's neck if they can't play due to the guaranteed contract. I could not care less if they get a college degree, and frankly, neither would there theoretical college coach with the exception of Bob Knight. I only care that they are impacting the game play and salary structure in a negative way.

6. Those two guys received longer suspensions than Anthony and McSorley did jail time, if memory serves. Again, what's your point?

7. No one has questioned AI's desire to leave Philly. He gets labeled a malcontent because of the "practice" statements. Debate that if you like, but people are set in their ways on that one. I happen to think it was overblown.

8. The Knicks are the signature franchise of the league and Isaih has failed more than once. It's simply bizarre to see a player that good fail so horribly at being a GM.

Ah, the race card. . .cute. I guess Tomlinson doesn't get any run. Or Chad Johnson. Or TO. Or Ray Lewis. Or Vince Young. Or Steve McNair. Or McFlabb. Or Tiki Barber. Or Michael Strahan. . .

So since you so eloquently explained everthing away, does that mean that the NBA does not have a perceived image problem? Because if you feel like that, as an NBA fan you are fooling yourself. THERE IS A DOUBLE STANDARD.

The perception of the NBA is hip hop, tatoos, thugs and now guns. And Stern reacts to counter that image so much so that it feeds the perception of a league out of control, when in reality it is not.

 

[rumpled]

The NBA has set itself up to promote its superstars much differently than other leagues. It all goes back to Jordan and his enormous commercial success worldwide. Its not all about basketball, its about image and stuff like that, getting the kids to buy your shoes and jerseys. A popular superstar is a cash cow to the NBA, and its all about the dollars eventually. So thats what they seem to want, to turn every new Carmelo into some sort of cultural icon. Like a rockstar, or rather a rapper. I think they _want_ to promote that hiphop image because it only makes players like AI more popular.

There are no baseball players on my TV trying to peddle gatorade by explaining how they grew up on the mean streets but look at their crib now.

 

[jacobdrj]

I was listening to Chuck Daly on the radio yesterday. He made some good points. I'll paraphrase.


The 3 H's:
Hats. Helmets. Hockey.
In Baseball and Football, you never really know who is doing what, unless pointed out. The hats/helmets cover the face. Many of the guys, outside of the super uber stars, you could never pick out of a lineup.

They live for fights in hocky (even if they are trying to take the fight away).

Basketball, the players are practically naked. You know who almost everyone is, and if not by their faces, buy the fact they are all realy tall.

They are easy to pick out and pick on.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Look I could discuss each point made one at a time but as other posters have done so allready why bother, more to the point the assumption being made by them simply put is: Other sports are just as bad and maybe worse than basketball but everyone picks on basketball. Interestingly in the thread title the term immage is used ant that is the crux of the problem. The NBA has an immage crises but it's not a simple as the q-ball sharp comentators would like to make it.

Every sport has a history and in that history a culture and cultural immage is created. Baseball was an everyman's game based on ideas of fairness and second and even third chances. Success was measured as much by tenacity and effort as success. Remember this is a sport where an athleet can fail 70% of the time and be considerd awsome with a .300 batting average. Heros of the sport were/are average guys or clean cut American boys, dress and hair restirctions helped matian this immage despite the stories of the individual player acting out every now and then. Remember this is noting new Babe was notorious for his drinking, Ty Cobb was well known as a racist, wife beater who even pistol whipped a reporter. But the immage of clean cup American boys even survived the 1919 Black Sox scandal and persists to this day.

Each sport has it's own public immage. Hocky players and football players are not expected to be nice and fights on and off the field or ice are all but encouraged. If a player shoots his mouth off about an opponent it is EXPECTED he will suffer for it.

So why does the NBA have an identy crisis?

Simple the immage of basketball even it's logo was Jerry West. it's history is originally as non-contact sport played by clean cut kids. It was seen as team sport where no matter how great an individual player was he was still just a part of soemthing iger. style and flash were frowned upon. In the 70's that NBA immage was DIRECTLY challanged by the ABA where teams were NOT as big as their stars blame Dr. J if you like but there were plenty of others. Flash and toughness with more urban look made the ABA a semi-succefull alternative to the old school conservative NBA. Remember the ABA did not go away like the XFL did it was absorbed by the NBA and THAT was when this identty crises began.

Through the 70's and 80's the NBA struggled with the advent of superstars many of who were heros in inner cities. The game became more physical and out of line physical responses became so much the norm that it was not untill Kermit Washington (Laker) dam near killed Ruddy Tomonivitch that the NBA had to start cracking down on fighting ON THE COURT. But ever since the ABA era untill today thate has been a large and perhaps even growing number of players who WANT to project an immage that is in conflict with the the immage the NBA wants. Some players demand "street cred" which is a convient euphimizem for being a tough guy who if not activly involved in violence, drug use and "living large" Jay Z observed that all Rapers want to NBA palyers and all NBA players want to be rappers, and while this is clearly an over generalization there is some truth there. While I would never condem rap as actually BEING a criminal ellement it certinally embraces and has even turned criminal lables into badges of honor. Guys actually WANT to be called Pimp or Gangster.

So the NBA ruffles against this immage cultivated by it's playres that conflicts with the immage they (the NBA) want to project to the world at large. This struggle between managemnt and players is wat spurend Rasheed Wallace to remark that the the NBA was like "slavery." What he meant was not that he was un or under paid but that his behavior, immage and lifestyle was being controlled by someone with power over him.

Given this immage crisses the media is forced to take a schizophrenic view of the sport. Fights are big news and the peneltys are harsh. Players criticize the leage and demad trade often quite inarticualty... this makes for fun news and bad player immage.

Of course if the NBA REALLY wants to fight the immage wars they need to go beyond showing Iverson trying to read to 3rd graders (sad actually) but rather what they ought to do is start doing exposes outing these guys for the posers they really are. Interview guys who kicked their butt on the street a few times, showing the priviate schools where many of these guys played their HS ball, showing the fight clips with comentaty NOT from Barkley but by Hollyfield or other fighters who can critique the bravery and fighting skills of a Carmello Anthnoy or JR Richardson... lets face it I don't think I have ever seen footage of an NBA player throw a punch that made me think "ooooo what a tough guy I would not want to mess with him" Heck interview Iverson's wife and ask her how he behaves, some how I don't think if young peopel knew what his priviate life was like ANYONE would cosider him a role modle and his street cred would would diminish like snow in Atlanta.

 

[bozzwell]

Celt that was great, an instant classic of a post.

I would pay to watch NBA fights with commentary by professional fighters. Just the thought of ex fighters breaking down Melo's slap-and-run is hilarious.

Even better, HBO could have a whole series of real ex-cons/gangstas reviewing gangsta wannabies, be they pro athletes or entertainers or whatever.

Having said that, I don't really have a problem with youth/sports/popular culture embracing imagery and style of "gangstas" and "pimps" as some sort of anti-estabilishment statement, as long as no crime is committed. I mean really, when did it become "not OK" to rebel or at least act rebeliously.

 

[Roman]

It's simple really.

Basketball is scrutinized because it's the most intimate sport there is. There are 12 guys on a team and they don't obstruct their face (unless your name is Rip Hamilton). Football, hockey (and to a lessor extent) baseball all have helmets or some other thing plus the views are oftentimes wider and from behind the players.

You just don't get as close to the players in other sports as you do in basketball. Which is why basketball players have such lucrative marketing value.

Imagine Demeco Ryans (almost a shoo-in for defensive rookie of the year) trying to sell something. You'd have no idea who he is. Couldn't pick him out from a crowd. Compare that to the number of people that could point out Greg Oden, who hasn't even played a second ... and you'll see the picture.

 

[Padrino]

^^ celt was onto something with the gangster talk. part of the nba's so-called "image problem" is its incredible ties to hip hop culture. no other professional sport is so closely affiliated with a style of music and the subsequent lifestyle the music represents. like he said, all nba players want to be rappers and all rappers want to play in the nba. hip hop hasn't exactly garnered the squeaky-clean, all-american stigma that country music has, for example (and, for the record, i absolutely HATE country music). its no secret that the lifestyle represented by the hip hop culture is one mired in greed, sex, and, to some degree, violence. so, you wanna ask what's wrong with the nba's image? well...here's three little words for you: greed, sex, and violence. you've got tons of nba players demanding absurd amounts of money. then, after they negotiate their multi-million dollar contracts, you've got nba players leaving strip clubs at 2:00 in the morning and engaging in street fights where guns are readily available. again, greed, sex, and violence. thugz 4 lyfe, ya know?

there's some good hip hop out there, but the prevailing image of the hip hop culture is not a positive image, and the nba has had a hard time distancing themselves from that image.

 

[Purple Reign]

Was This Neccessary??

Wednesday, December 20, 2006
Airline doesn't want to condone brawl, pulls feature

Associated Press

DETROIT -- Northwest Airlines has pulled an in-flight magazine that features NBA scoring leader Carmelo Anthony on the cover.


That, after the Denver Nuggets star received a 15-game suspension from the league for his role in Saturday's brawl with the New York Knicks.

Anthony was featured on the cover of the December issue of Northwest's WorldTraveler magazine.

The Detroit News reported that Northwest pulled hundreds of thousands of issues of the magazine out of its planes worldwide.

A Northwest spokesman said the airline didn't want to appear to condone the behavior of Anthony and other players during Saturday's game.

Northwest plans to replace the magazine with its January issue of WorldTraveler.

 

[Venom]

Hip-hop is ubiqitous these days. The basketball-rap argument carried some validity in the late 90s but is a dead issue at this point. Half the batters on any MLB team choose hip-hop as their song before each at-bat.

I think people are trying to come up with complex answers as to why basetball, or at least the NBA, has declined so sharply recently when I think the answer is really quite simple: quality of play. The product is simply not as good, and has been watered down due to the rule changes. There are myriad reasons including lack of intensity, lack of defense, inflated salaries, and decline in talent. But all contribute to the glaring issue of a decline in the quality of play. Look, Steve Nash is a very good PG, but the man should never be a two-time MVP. That is ludicrous. He only plays one phase of the game, completely eschewing defense. How can Steve Nash be the back-to-back MVP in a league w/ the same quality as the 80s and 90s? It's not possible.

I think Stern is misinterpreting all of this. The league is not too thuggish, but too lackadaisical. It is painfully obvious that some (most?) of these guys view it as nothing more than a payday, a job. And that's fine, but I'm not going to pay for DirecTV or to go to a game to watch mediocrity. I'll throw down big money for an NFL game because those guys come to play on Sunday, and it doesn't matter if they've been in the police blotter or not.

 

[Arkitect]

Wednesday, December 20, 2006
Airline doesn't want to condone brawl, pulls feature

Associated Press

DETROIT -- Northwest Airlines has pulled an in-flight magazine that features NBA scoring leader Carmelo Anthony on the cover.


That, after the Denver Nuggets star received a 15-game suspension from the league for his role in Saturday's brawl with the New York Knicks.

Anthony was featured on the cover of the December issue of Northwest's WorldTraveler magazine.

The Detroit News reported that Northwest pulled hundreds of thousands of issues of the magazine out of its planes worldwide.

A Northwest spokesman said the airline didn't want to appear to condone the behavior of Anthony and other players during Saturday's game.

Northwest plans to replace the magazine with its January issue of WorldTraveler.

Really? I can't believe people are this worried about condoning the behavior of a guy who punched someone in the face. Are they concerned that some kid might see this picture and be struck with a sudden urge to punch people in the face throughout the plane? That cost them alot of time and money to fix. Oh well, they got some publicity out of it since the Detroit News found it important enough to report.

 

[acisking]

I think Stern is misinterpreting all of this. The league is not too thuggish, but too lackadaisical. It is painfully obvious that some (most?) of these guys view it as nothing more than a payday, a job. And that's fine, but I'm not going to pay for DirecTV or to go to a game to watch mediocrity. I'll throw down big money for an NFL game because those guys come to play on Sunday, and it doesn't matter if they've been in the police blotter or not.

I cannot help but agree with this. While it may be irrelevant to the whole thug discussion, the greatest problem in the NBA is that on many nights, players simply don't seem to care enough. Sure the NBA playofs is incredible because we see what players a re really capable of..but as a fan of the game, I have to say that I often feel that an outcome of a regular season game doesn't matter - something that should never occur in a sport. That, more than anything else, has led to the decline in people's perception of the NBA.

 

[rumpled]

I think its more like David Stern is sending a clear message to the stars of this league that this is NOT the way to sell sneakers.

 

[Gargamel]

H
I think Stern is misinterpreting all of this. The league is not too thuggish, but too lackadaisical. It is painfully obvious that some (most?) of these guys view it as nothing more than a payday, a job.

He probably does realize that, but figures that if there's a thuggish perception towards the league on top of shoddy play, that's even worse for ratings/sales. Nothin much he can do to improve quality of play immediately other than by contracting the league by about 10 teams. His rule "fixes" sure don't improve play.