Balancing the First and Second Units

[gunks]

Monk/Ellis/DDR/Keegan/Domas is my dream starting 5, but ain't no way Lavine is coming off the bench.

Doug needs to figure out the stagger, but he hasn't really shown to be any better at rotations than Brown was, so I'm not very hopeful.

We have an intriguing mix of talent though! I feel like there's a lot of complimentary line-ups on this roster, but only if Doug doesn't get too stuck playing starters and benchers together.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

As a fellow Lithuanian - definitely no Unless you want him to be a primary ball handle. Ooops, I mean beer handler

I wonder if the Kings are stretching out of shape defensively in order to work around Domas' lack of rim protection. JV could be a bit more credible in there.

 

[bball_nomad]

I wonder if the Kings are stretching out of shape defensively in order to work around Domas' lack of rim protection. JV could be a bit more credible in there.

Only if arenas rims need protection

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Basically:

Monk 35
DeRozan 35
LaVine 35
Domas 35
Murray 25
Keon 25
Valanciunas 20
Trey 10
Carter 10
LaRavia 10

The bottom line is that your minutes distribution is going to look something like this, and those four guys at the top are going to get something like 35 MPG each. Every single one of those four guys is an NBA vet who talent-wise deserves to be in the starting lineup and wants to be in the starting lineup. So you don't rock the stupid boat, you put all four of them in the starting lineup, and then stagger things from there, and your closing lineup depends on who is playing best that game.

From a game standpoint, it doesn't matter all that much who starts the game as long as the minutes distribution is good. From an ego standpoint, it certainly does matter who starts. Just reality.

Yes, Keon needs minutes, we all agree on that. But he hasn't done nearly enough to be a default NBA starter, like each of those other four have. So he comes off the bench and gets valuable minutes anyway. That's the correct solution. The correct solution is NOT "let's shove an established NBA starter who is still earning his contract to the bench in favor of a young defensive player and see how badly we can screw up team chemistry by blowing a dude's ego out." Wrong answer. Really, it's probably the easiest question on the test, but we don't all test well.

 

[SacTownKid]

I wonder if the Kings are stretching out of shape defensively in order to work around Domas' lack of rim protection. JV could be a bit more credible in there.

Domas is actually worlds better than JV at this point. Jonas is going to be a sitting duck in pick and roll whereas Domas has the footwork and speed to switch. Jonas is someone that can hopefully replace Domas' presence offensively and on the boards.

 

[Jdbraver137]

He'll adjust.

I’m sure he will.

 

[The_Jamal]

Domas is actually worlds better than JV at this point. Jonas is going to be a sitting duck in pick and roll whereas Domas has the footwork and speed to switch. Jonas is someone that can hopefully replace Domas' presence offensively and on the boards.

Yeah, why JV has won this year is there's not a single bench big capable of hanging with him in the post and on the glass. We saw it first hand when he just put Len in the blender like 3 times in that 1Q. And Domas struggled with him on both ends.

The beauty of JV is you don't ever have to rely on him in crunch time when you need to "D up" and tighten things up. He's a perfect plug between minutes 8 and 40. And i'm very much betting we'll have at least a game this year where we win off Jval just absolutely going nuke for 20-10 in 25 minutes and Domas isn't needed that night. How great would that be?

 

[Jdbraver137]

Domas is actually worlds better than JV at this point. Jonas is going to be a sitting duck in pick and roll whereas Domas has the footwork and speed to switch. Jonas is someone that can hopefully replace Domas' presence offensively and on the boards.

JV physicality will deter running down the lane

 

[SacTownKid]

JV physicality will deter running down the lane

But he will likely get obliterated from the mid range. We'll see what kind of effort he puts in. I think by next season he'll come in in much better shape. Right now he's a little heavy.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

Yeah, why JV has won this year is there's not a single bench big capable of hanging with him in the post and on the glass. We saw it first hand when he just put Len in the blender like 3 times in that 1Q. And Domas struggled with him on both ends.

You still have got an odd habit about hallucinating about Len, JV went 3/5 on isos against Len all game, (went 4/4 against Domas)

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CF...=0&TeamID=1610612764&flag=3&sct=plot§ion=game

 

[sactowndog]

Between Zach or DeMarr, I'd sit DeMarr. Zach plays well off Sabonis, and his defense is better.

Yeah but that is why you make Zach the first sub in maybe Zach, Larabia and Carter subbing for Monk, Collins and Deebo. Then the Zach Sabonis becomes the number one option.

 

[sactowndog]

Basically:

Monk 35
DeRozan 35
LaVine 35
Domas 35
Murray 25
Keon 25
Valanciunas 20
Trey 10
Carter 10
LaRavia 10

The bottom line is that your minutes distribution is going to look something like this, and those four guys at the top are going to get something like 35 MPG each. Every single one of those four guys is an NBA vet who talent-wise deserves to be in the starting lineup and wants to be in the starting lineup. So you don't rock the stupid boat, you put all four of them in the starting lineup, and then stagger things from there, and your closing lineup depends on who is playing best that game.

From a game standpoint, it doesn't matter all that much who starts the game as long as the minutes distribution is good. From an ego standpoint, it certainly does matter who starts. Just reality.

Yes, Keon needs minutes, we all agree on that. But he hasn't done nearly enough to be a default NBA starter, like each of those other four have. So he comes off the bench and gets valuable minutes anyway. That's the correct solution. The correct solution is NOT "let's shove an established NBA starter who is still earning his contract to the bench in favor of a young defensive player and see how badly we can screw up team chemistry by blowing a dude's ego out." Wrong answer. Really, it's probably the easiest question on the test, but we don't all test well.

that top 4 might be the worst defensive lineup in the league.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

that top 4 might be the worst defensive lineup in the league.

And if we had the best defensive lineup in the league, then we'd be seeing complaints about how we can't score. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

 

[SacTownKid]

And if we had the best defensive lineup in the league, then we'd be seeing complaints about how we can't score. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Heck, we're already hearing the too thin at guard from some people now, hahaha.

 

[Capt. Factorial]

Heck, we're already hearing the too thin at guard from some people now, hahaha.

One day we will find that Baby Bear team, I know it!

 

[Rob-The-Great]

It's not a tough puzzle. LaVine needs to go to the bench, dassit. It is a tough decision, though, and Christie doesn't have the cache nor the job security to make that call. At a minimum, they would probably have to remove that Interim tag off of his title before he had the confidence to take one of those guys out of the starting lineup.

LaVine to the bench is crazy talk. I cant believe people agree with this take. Who in there right mind would send a 2 time prime allstwt to the bench for any of these guys who havent even recieved a allstar vote let alone a nod there whole career.

I love Ellis like the rest but to say he should start over Lavine is just man like what is this

 

[bball_nomad]

But he will likely get obliterated from the mid range. We'll see what kind of effort he puts in. I think by next season he'll come in in much better shape. Right now he's a little heavy.

I think that he might be able to shape up even this season. It's much easier to lose weight than to gain muscles. Sacramento is a beautiful city in a beautiful state.
JV for the most of his career played for the teams with the goals to achieve something. This year with the Was was exception.
To loose ~15 lbs is definitely not mission impossible. Especially for JV who is ultimate teammate.

 

[Rob-The-Great]

Stop touching the starting lineup and let the guys build. How about that. I domt know if anyone had looked around the NBA lately but defense is the last thing on people's minds. We need to gell and get fast starts. Then blow people's doors off.

Enough of this sending our Allstars to the bench. That's how you get fired and lose teams. Stop this nonsense

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

LaVine to the bench is crazy talk. I cant believe people agree with this take. Who in there right mind would send a 2 time prime allstwt to the bench for any of these guys who havent even recieved a allstar vote let alone a nod there whole career.

I love Ellis like the rest but to say he should start over Lavine is just man like what is this

Does balance matter, or does it not?

 

[Rob-The-Great]

Does balance matter, or does it not?

Not at all. Strengths matter. We ee had a small team with one power center but everyone else was shooting people out the gym nobody would care about balance.

We need to play to the strengths we have not search for what we don't have. Put the best 5 out there and play ball

 

[upinsmoke]

LaVine to the bench is crazy talk. I cant believe people agree with this take. Who in there right mind would send a 2 time prime allstwt to the bench for any of these guys who havent even recieved a allstar vote let alone a nod there whole career.

I love Ellis like the rest but to say he should start over Lavine is just man like what is this

Do You want to play or do you want to win?

 

[SacTownKid]

Do You want to play or do you want to win?

Nobody knows if the latter is a short term or long term possibility at this point regardless. Give it some time, then reassess.

 

[Rob-The-Great]

Do You want to play or do you want to win?

We have not even seen this starting line up play together. Everyone is freaking out about 1 game. 1 game!

You dont trade a Fox for Lavine only to send him to the bench. You dont pick up our best free agent signing dam near ever, and send him to sazzthe bench.
++
This is something that shouldn't even be in discussion. There is no such thing as balance in NBA. Unless you mean average. A average scoring and average defense team. You know what that gets you? A average play in team.

The best Defense is a great Offense. We cam be a amazing Offensive team. Why can't people be happy about this? Always something

 

[206Fan]

The fit was always going to be awkward with LaVine. Lots of cooks in the kitchen on offense, but also no defense to show for it. You can't afford to bench DDR because he's our biggest FA signing in a long time. You can't bench LaVine because he's a 2x All-Star. I don't think you can bench Monk either because he's proven himself.

I think the best situation here is to have Zach as the first sub out around the 6-8 min mark for Keon. You can bring LaVine back later to run the 2nd unit where he'll have more scoring opportunity without Monk and DDR. It also solves our "bench scoring" issue too.

During clutch time, you just have to ride whatever rotation that gets hot. I think it's an automatic DDR-Keegan-Sabonis though.

 

[Rob-The-Great]

The fit was always going to be awkward with LaVine. Lots of cooks in the kitchen on offense, but also no defense to show for it. You can't afford to bench DDR because he's our biggest FA signing in a long time. You can't bench LaVine because he's a 2x All-Star. I don't think you can bench Monk either because he's proven himself.

I think the best situation here is to have Zach as the first sub out around the 6-8 min mark for Keon. You can bring LaVine back later to run the 2nd unit where he'll have more scoring opportunity without Monk and DDR. It also solves our "bench scoring" issue too.

During clutch time, you just have to ride whatever rotation that gets hot. I think it's an automatic DDR-Keegan-Sabonis though.

I think we need to start letting out bench eat. Does every team stag there starters with the bench. I swear the bench use to just sub In with the starters as a unit. So people can build chemistry. Can't just give people 2 min runs and expect anything less than inconsistent play. Im our hey day. We had Bobby Jackson come on with the whole bench. Of course Bobby would play more as 6th man but the bench was fairly consistent as far as playtime just like the starters

 

[BosnianDiehard2.0]

Due to the politics of the NBA, Lavine will likely never be benched while he’s here. But it would be best for everyone if we go with Keon over Lavine to start. The balance would be much better and Lavine could eat as the clear alpha with the second unit. I wish he would embrace a 6th man role, maybe can Doug can convince him to do what’s best for the team.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Honestly we opened the game fine. It's just figuring out the midgame rotations so we don't cool off. We probably had less specific fall off tonight than we did with the old roster. Blazers are hot and maybe a tough matchup. Clingan who is still very raw just sucked up space down low. Team needs to figure each other out because when the Kings were facing my basket tonight it was clogged down low. This team has the talent and the tools to figure it out.

 

[midtowner]

Portland was bigger and played more physically, won the scrap game and hit their 3s. Kings fought - but the crap fouls on Sabonis hurt.

 

[pdxKingsFan]

Portland was bigger and played more physically, won the scrap game and hit their 3s. Kings fought - but the crap fouls on Sabonis hurt.

Jonas had some real good looks in the second that had they fallen this would have been a very different game especially after the start we had to the third. I saw a lot tonight and we didn't even have Jake tonight. I did not like our whistle tonight. Very ticky tack calls from my view of the court and it was not reciprocated when there were some hard fouls 3 feet from where I was sitting.

 

[Jones2006]

Not sure if it was mentioned but I'm pretty sure this was the 1st time all season where DeRozan was not primarily in with the bench unit ... Meaning w/ Fox here, they would go out w/ 6 min left and then reenter with 2 min left in 1st Q give or take to play majority of time with bench unit. But tonight I believe DeRozan stayed in there until 2-3 min left in the 1st & instead Lavine & Murray entered with the bench unit w/ Valincunis. Thinking theoretically makes sense to pair Jonas with more shooters.

It is a smart change to stagger DeRozan and Valincunis and play DeRozan more w/ a spacing center like Sabonis. But I do wonder why they didn't do this before? In my opinion the "bench" (be it Len, Lyles, Jones, etc.) has been used a scapegoat a lot when much of the time in reality in was Fox/DeRozan running isos and crappy sets when they were in, which stalled the offense. The bench unit / subs have sucked all year , yet NOW they finally sub DeRozan in/out differently? Was interesting.