Amick: De’Aaron Fox requests trade

Capt. Factorial

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Some people seem to be suggesting that this is an overpay, but I'm not really sure that it is. We have to remember that we are talking about an All Star PG (and a guy that will be a perennial All Star PG in a non-Sacramento market) entering the prime of his career going the other way, who has two playoff seasons left on his deal, and who may well be amenable to signing an extension. That is a damn valuable contract to acquire.

Coming back are three players, salary, and one deep future pick. The pick is a wildcard, but the assumption from Miami's side is going to be that it's going to be in the 20s anyway, so it's not a huge asset.

The players coming back are:
Jaquez - great hustle guy, great fundamentals guy, limited skill. Not really a shooter. Rotation guy, only a starter on a contender as the glue guy behind four "stars". So if your team is built just right to use him, maybe, but you don't build your team around him. Nonetheless, useful.
Jovic - Strikes me as a Hedo-type player. Decent shooting, passing for his size. Good rotation piece, probably a starter or 6th man level minutes if off the bench.
Ware - Lots of hype on him, always struck me as a WCS type player in terms of athleticism and size. Has shown a three-point shot...but these days so many players can flash one it's less of a differentiator. Struggled pretty mightily to put it together in college. A nice piece for hopes of development, but not a sure-fire All Star (even once). The talk fawns over him as if he's going to be the Shaq-style league dominating C for the next decade, but that's silly. We'd have to figure out how to play him with Domas, and hope that worked out better than the mess with Turner in Indy.

As Tetsujin said, I could talk myself into this deal, assuming it's on the table.

The nice thing about Miami potentially being involved to this level is that with both Miami and San Antonio hot to trot, we then get a bidding war. Perhaps in the end the better deal ends up being Castle/Sochan/ATL picks etc., rather than this one, but this deal being on the table forces San Antonio to realize they don't get Fox for free, and they can't sit on their thumbs and wait.
 

pdxKingsFan

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Agreed I’d also take less from Miami just so we don’t reward Fox for quitting
I think Herro's fool's gold but almost any trade with Miami will return players at least as good as other players we are rumored to target and JJJ or Jovic seem to at least be guys that can contribute right now vs. Castle who despite what Spurs fans are telling themselves has a long road ahead.

De'Aaron's worst season (which was the covid interrupted season) he still shot much better than Castle.
 

pdxKingsFan

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yeah, I figure many of us fans are more clued in or at least know draft talent better than most of the so called experts.
While fan trades are somewhat stupid and maybe the BR guy is completely out of whack to the rest of Heat fans, etc. they do show what fans will THINK of the trade. I think almost every Spurs move that isn't Castle/Sochan and at least 3 quality FRPs is going to be a total loss to a Kings fan base that has suffered enough.

The Spurs fans are one of the most gifted small town fan bases in all of American pro sports and they don't seem to think much of Fox so let's do a move to a fanbase that will value him even if we take less than what a good Spurs trade looks like.

It's like the Dame situation where Miami fans didn't like Dame as much as they liked the fact he wanted to be there and felt like he was already their asset.

Either Spurs come to the table with a real offer or Kings need to look at something that not only helps the team but is acceptable to us.
 

pdxKingsFan

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There's historical precedent to at least one potential receiving team playing hardball during negotiations and it getting back to the player who felt the new team was undervaluing them and so they killed the deal. I'm trying to think what it was, and I'm actually starting to think it was US and the Siakam deal.

Anyone remember something similar?
 
I think Herro's fool's gold but almost any trade with Miami will return players at least as good as other players we are rumored to target and JJJ or Jovic seem to at least be guys that can contribute right now vs. Castle who despite what Spurs fans are telling themselves has a long road ahead.

De'Aaron's worst season (which was the covid interrupted season) he still shot much better than Castle.
Why do you think he’s fools gold? He’s turned into a pretty good playmaker and he’s an elite shooter both needs for us
 

pdxKingsFan

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Why do you think he’s fools gold? He’s turned into a pretty good playmaker and he’s an elite shooter both needs for us
We've been over this a dozen times. He's just not a guy I value. And he's almost always in Heat trade rumors which would seem to indicate the Heat feel the same way.

I'd take him to get Ware and two picks but I'd rather have Jovic and JJJ on smaller deals and less picks, longer control and the ability to move one.
 
Just going by history with players in similar situations, if Monte is expecting a pick haul and youth he's probably barking up the wrong tree. You typically either get one or the other and when it comes to teams stockpiling picks that's probably what they've been doing it for, to use them rather than actual talent. I really wouldn't expect anything close to what Utah got for Donovan Mitchell but we can hope it's also a lot more than the Kings got for Cuz. The issue there is Cuz wasn't exactly putting out signals he was out, his was all attitude and impact questions. Imagine if Vlade waited to trade him? Contract aside he started to physically fall apart soon after. Not that Fox is similar in that way but Fox isn't the most sturdy specimen either. Yes, mostly it's nagging inujuries but still.
 

pdxKingsFan

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Just going by history with players in similar situations, if Monte is expecting a pick haul and youth he's probably barking up the wrong tree. You typically either get one or the other and when it comes to teams stockpiling picks that's probably what they've been doing it for, to use them rather than actual talent. I really wouldn't expect anything close to what Utah got for Donovan Mitchell but we can hope it's also a lot more than the Kings got for Cuz. The issue there is Cuz wasn't exactly putting out signals he was out, his was all attitude and impact questions. Imagine if Vlade waited to trade him? Contract aside he started to physically fall apart soon after. Not that Fox is similar in that way but Fox isn't the most sturdy specimen either. Yes, mostly it's nagging inujuries but still.
One promising young player and three picks would do it for me. That's really what the ask from San Antonio is with Castle and Sochan. Sochan is quite limited. And so is Castle in his current form. There's no reason to believe he will shoot better than Fox from 3 in 8 years. He's far below Fox's rookie numbers.
 
Just going by history with players in similar situations, if Monte is expecting a pick haul and youth he's probably barking up the wrong tree. You typically either get one or the other and when it comes to teams stockpiling picks that's probably what they've been doing it for, to use them rather than actual talent. I really wouldn't expect anything close to what Utah got for Donovan Mitchell but we can hope it's also a lot more than the Kings got for Cuz. The issue there is Cuz wasn't exactly putting out signals he was out, his was all attitude and impact questions. Imagine if Vlade waited to trade him? Contract aside he started to physically fall apart soon after. Not that Fox is similar in that way but Fox isn't the most sturdy specimen either. Yes, mostly it's nagging inujuries but still.
I keep hearing it being said that Fox' prime "is just starting", of which I don't agree with. He's been in his prime for the last few seasons.

What, is his prime going to only be like 3 seasons long? Unless one believes that with his play style, history, and body type, that he'll still be in his prime at 31? I don't think he'll have a long career at the top of his game, because his elite positive is speed, not skill
 
One promising young player and three picks would do it for me. That's really what the ask from San Antonio is with Castle and Sochan. Sochan is quite limited. And so is Castle in his current form. There's no reason to believe he will shoot better than Fox from 3 in 8 years. He's far below Fox's rookie numbers.
Then the question is whether or not them not being included lets it sink the deal. The truth is, the most valuable asset the Spurs might have is the 2031 pick swap the Kings handed over. If the Kings can end up with 3-4 picks to add to the 2031 swap that gives them the chance to put a mega picks deal together themselves. This was always the issue with the Kings trading for a Collins or Cam. If the Kings use 1 even protected pick? They might as well use 2 because they are then severely limited in putting any pick based trade packages together for the next 5 years or so. Fox might actually be saving Monte from himself here. We've already seen how the Huerter pick has kind of hung over Monte when making moves. No more.
 
I keep hearing people say that Fox' prime "is just starting", of which I don't agree with. He's been in his prime for the last few seasons.

What, is his prime going to only be like 3 seasons long? Unless one believes that with his play style, history, and body type, that he'll still be in his prime at 31? I don't think he'll have a long career at the top of his game, because his elite positive is speed, not skill
I agree, it's always really been based on years and development. Also it's kind of a result of players coming in at 19 and with the league being almost all offensively based. Although that is probably changing back to more both sides of the ball fairly soon. They'll be pushing Wemby like he's a cross between Dirk and Shaq, and the only way to stop guys like that is trying to actually stop them. Not going toe to toe. Make it tough, play physical, shut his teammates down on D.
 

pdxKingsFan

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Then the question is whether or not them not being included lets it sink the deal. The truth is, the most valuable asset the Spurs might have is the 2031 pick swap the Kings handed over. If the Kings can end up with 3-4 picks to add to the 2031 swap that gives them the chance to put a mega picks deal together themselves. This was always the issue with the Kings trading for a Collins or Cam. If the Kings use 1 even protected pick? They might as well use 2 because they are then severely limited in putting any pick based trade packages together for the next 5 years or so. Fox might actually be saving Monte from himself here. We've already seen how the Huerter pick has kind of hung over Monte when making moves. No more.
I don't think we should ever trade future picks though I am ok with a draft day pick move like the less than great one to move Holmes or if we had not seen someone we liked this year (Carter obviously) and moved it for Cam. But picks are our most valuable asset as a historically mediocre team in an unattractive FA market.
 
Then the question is whether or not them not being included lets it sink the deal. The truth is, the most valuable asset the Spurs might have is the 2031 pick swap the Kings handed over. If the Kings can end up with 3-4 picks to add to the 2031 swap that gives them the chance to put a mega picks deal together themselves. This was always the issue with the Kings trading for a Collins or Cam. If the Kings use 1 even protected pick? They might as well use 2 because they are then severely limited in putting any pick based trade packages together for the next 5 years or so. Fox might actually be saving Monte from himself here. We've already seen how the Huerter pick has kind of hung over Monte when making moves. No more.
Still got to make salaries work somehow. Spurs gotta send out 30 million if they take Fox. Now it don’t all have to come to us and maybe that’s why we here 5-6-7 teams being involved.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
I keep hearing people say that Fox' prime "is just starting", of which I don't agree with. He's been in his prime for the last few seasons.

What, is his prime going to only be like 3 seasons long? Unless one believes that with his play style, history, and body type, that he'll still be in his prime at 31? I don't think he'll have a long career at the top of his game, because his elite positive is speed, not skill
I feel like people have yet to have adjusted their prime windows for the current one-and-done era. Maybe back in the day 27 was just entering prime territory but that’s the age that John Wall’s legs decided he was done with the sport of basketball.
 
I agree, it's always really been based on years and development. Also it's kind of a result of players coming in at 19 and with the league being almost all offensively based. Although that is probably changing back to more both sides of the ball fairly soon. They'll be pushing Wemby like he's a cross between Dirk and Shaq, and the only way to stop guys like that is trying to actually stop them. Not going toe to toe. Make it tough, play physical, shut his teammates down on D.
Shaq was a pure power player. Wemby will never be that, because of his naturally skinny frame. He's more like a cross between Dirk and Kareem
 

Capt. Factorial

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The truth is, the most valuable asset the Spurs might have is the 2031 pick swap the Kings handed over.
I don't understand how you come to that conclusion. I wouldn't put that pick swap among even the five most valuable assets the Spurs have to give. My order would be something like:

2025 ATL
Castle
2027 ATL
2031 MIN
Sochan
2025 CHI
2030 MIN/DAL/SAS

and then I start looking at that pick swap. Unless we assume that we are going to be terrible in 2031 - and we have like 6 years to develop a not-terrible team - then that swap won't be a huge deal. And it does at least leave us with a pick, so Stepien doesn't come into play.
 
I feel like people have yet to have adjusted their prime windows for the current one-and-done era. Maybe back in the day 27 was just entering prime territory but that’s the age that John Wall’s legs decided he was done with the sport of basketball.
yeah, it's just a talking point, where one person says it and then a bunch of others repeat it.

Fox entered his prime somewhere around '21/22, in my opinion from watching him close
 
Shaq was a pure power player. Wemby will never be that, because of his naturally skinny frame. He's more like a cross between Dirk and Kareem
I'm not necessarily talking about him as a player, I'm talking about how the league tends to mysteriously warp HOW the game is played around it's stars. This is their guy. Their chosen ones tend to get to play the game a little differently than the rest. Whether that's hit people in the face with elbows, or clearly travel as a main move, haha.
 

pdxKingsFan

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I feel like people have yet to have adjusted their prime windows for the current one-and-done era. Maybe back in the day 27 was just entering prime territory but that’s the age that John Wall’s legs decided he was done with the sport of basketball.
It’s weird because when I started watching in the 80s, 27 was it for you. But now we see guys playing into their 40s. So it’s almost like you’re just guessing if a guy is gonna be washed at 30 or 35 or can even go longer.
 

Capt. Factorial

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Fox entered his prime somewhere around '21/22, in my opinion from watching him close
The point is that whoever gets Fox is getting him in the best years of his career. He's not like Castle, a guy that is still unfinished and developing into who-knows-what, and he's not like DeRozan, a great player that is on the decline phase of his career. He's an all-star level PG, and promises to be at that level for say 6 years.
 
I don't understand how you come to that conclusion. I wouldn't put that pick swap among even the five most valuable assets the Spurs have to give. My order would be something like:

2025 ATL
Castle
2027 ATL
2031 MIN
Sochan
2025 CHI
2030 MIN/DAL/SAS

and then I start looking at that pick swap. Unless we assume that we are going to be terrible in 2031 - and we have like 6 years to develop a not-terrible team - then that swap won't be a huge deal. And it does at least leave us with a pick, so Stepien doesn't come into play.
I would almost guarantee league polls would bet on the Kings being a good long bet on pick odds. The Kings can then put a distance pick out there with others and those seem to have value these days. We'll see about the Hawks pick. This draft doesn't appear to be knocking anyone socks off just yet in terms of depth. March will probably have it's say on that. The rest would be a go to me. This is why I think a Spurs deal if it includes picks is the best possibility considering the circumstances. Sochan? I guess it depends on what his contractual value would be. Starting off potentially overpaying for someone like him isn't always the brightest idea.
 
The point is that whoever gets Fox is getting him in the best years of his career. He's not like Castle, a guy that is still unfinished and developing into who-knows-what, and he's not like DeRozan, a great player that is on the decline phase of his career. He's an all-star level PG, and promises to be at that level for say 6 years.
Sure, but I wouldn't count on his body being at peak level another 4+ years from now, since I don't view him as a "longevity" type player.

I hope the interested teams do.

DeRozan is a longevity player example, because his foundation is based on elite skill