[Game] 44/82: Kings at Nuggets 23 JAN 2025, 6pm PT/9pm ET

[sactowndog]

Woah, you don't like Monte's roster? Who knew!

And I'm not really sure how to answer this. It's such a weird way to compare players and essentially you're making Fox look like a giant weight holding this team down rather than the all-star/top 15-20 player in the NBA that he is. Go offer every single team one of our guards, for free, on a minimum contract. Is anyone not taking Fox?

Fox is better than all our guards. It's not even close. He's more talented than all of them and he affects the game more than all of them. @twslam07 put together an excellent advanced stat comparison between him and Monk and I'm pretty sure it wasn't all that close. That's not to say the right move isn't to find a deal involving him, especially with his contract situation in limbo while Monk's is taken care of. But it's stupid to try and parse Fox out like he isn't by far and away the best guard on the team. I get annoyed when fans are just ready to dump one of the best players in the league like he's nothing.

And I'm not even defending Fox-Monk starting together. I've literally been saying since Keon broke out last year that he should be the guy next to Fox in the back-court. Eventually, what needs to happen is either Monk swallows his pride, comes off the bench again and Keon starts. That's Christie's job to facilitate that. Or if that's not possible anymore, you trade Fox or Monk.

In aggregate I agree. And if you look at PIE Fox is the highest. I’m not arguing that point.

But you are dodging the question and a crux to this whole discussion. In what specific area is Fox the best player we have…. Don’t dodge it give me an honest answer.

Defense
Play making
Clutch Scoring

and I saw and appreciated his stats but his stats also clearly showed Keon is a much better defender than Fox.

maybe you can say Fox is best in shooting but both Ellis and DeRozan are better with TS%. Yeah Fox is 2nd or 3rd best in everything but I’m struggling to find in what area he is the best at….

 

[The_Jamal]

In aggregate I agree. And if you look at PIE Fox is the highest. I’m not arguing that point.

But you are dodging the question and a crux to this whole discussion. In what specific area is Fox the best player we have…. Don’t dodge it give me an honest answer.

Defense
Play making
Clutch Scoring

and I saw and appreciated his stats but his stats also clearly showed Keon is a much better defender than Fox.

maybe you can say Fox is best in shooting but both Ellis and DeRozan are better with TS%. Yeah Fox is 2nd or 3rd best in everything but I’m struggling to find in what area he is the best at….

I did answer your question. I said I don't know how to answer it. That's not how I look at player comparisons. Sure, when you compare his defense overall to Keon's overall, he's not as good. But he CAN be and that does matter. Monk, while he does have an exciting block or steal every once in awhile, is probably just stuck as a sieve defensively at this point. Which is fine, considering his offensive production, but that's worth noting.

And while Keon's probably proven he's an elite shooter at this point, he doesn't touch Fox offensively. Not even on the same planet. So that does and should matter.

He's a better scorer than Monk. Shooting, both incredibly inconsistent, both can get hot. Monk on the LAL was an elite shooter, but we haven't seen much of that here. If you want a trait Fox is by far and away the best at, it's scoring the ball without having the offense created for you.

Monk is a better passer, but that doesn't make Fox a bad playmaker. You tend to act like he doesn't pass at all or that he's incapable. He's got the same Ast rate as Monk.

Again, this isn't how I evaluate talent. Cherry-pick the best traits from other players and compare it all to one guy.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

steals? Monk > Fox

You must be basing this on vibes and vibes alone, because it does not appear to be supported by statistical evidence.
Fox vs. Monk, 2024-25 season
Fox vs. Monk, career

Fox beats Monk in steals based on the raw counting stats, in per game stats, in the per/36 minutes stats, in the per/100 possessions stats, and in the STL% stat, both for this season and for their respective careers. By what metric, exactly, are you making the determination that "steals? Monk > Fox"?

If you assume Fox was a

B- defender
B+ playmaker
A closer.

we have guys who duplicate his strengths and magnify his weaknesses surrounding him.

The problem I have with this is that, if you stipulate those assessments as accurate, Fox is still the only guard on the roster that ranks as a B- or better in all three of those categories. Which suggests that he's not the one that the Kings should be trying to get rid of, unless he doesn't want to be here.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

Monk is a better passer, but that doesn't make Fox a bad playmaker. You tend to act like he doesn't pass at all or that he's incapable. He's got the same Ast rate as Monk.

I'll do you one better, how do you like this hot take: De'Aaron Fox is a better playmaker than Malik Monk when it comes to making plays for every single player on the Sacramento Kings not named Domantas Sabonis.

 

[Jdbraver137]

I'll do you one better, how do you like this hot take: De'Aaron Fox is a better playmaker than Malik Monk when it comes to making plays for every single player on the Sacramento Kings not named Domantas Sabonis.

False. Monk is by far a better drive and kick.

 

[The_Jamal]

I'll do you one better, how do you like this hot take: De'Aaron Fox is a better playmaker than Malik Monk when it comes to making plays for every single player on the Sacramento Kings not named Domantas Sabonis.

Hmm, that's probably correct? I'm sure there's something out there that shows what % of Monk's assists goes to Domas, but it's probably pretty high.

Monk's also a flashier passer than Fox, so his dimes look "pretty" and pop off the screen. That plays into our perception too I think.

Regardless, both guys are excellent passer and great playmakers.

 

[whitechocolate]

Call me crazy, but I think having three really good guards is better than having two. If Monk is on Fox's level, that's not a reason to trade one of them.

 

[The_Jamal]

Call me crazy, but I think having three really good guards is better than having two. If Monk is on Fox's level, that's not a reason to trade one of them.

Yeah, this. I think just break it up where you start 1 offense 1 defense guard and bring 1 offense 1 defense guard off the bench. Having potentially the best guard rotation in basketball seems good, if you play and stagger them correctly.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

False. Monk is by far a better drive and kick.

Where is the website that I can refer to where they track drive and kicks?

 

[Joshyjosh31]

If you shut Fox down until the All-Star break, you might as well shut him down for the rest of the season: that many games lost would only give him, like, a two-game margin of error the rest of the way to remain eligible for any post-season awards, which I'm 90 percent sure is the reason why he's still playing right now.

A lot of you have some internalized trauma regarding Klutch which I do not share, particularly when it comes to the notion of them influencing their clients to leave their teams. But I tell you what, let the team bench Fox enough games to make him ineligible, and see if that isn't exactly what happens.

The benching would be a Fox and king’s decision not just the team. But you’re right I don’t think he sits that long but if he sits the next three games he’d have eight days off I’m confident we could go 2-1 in that stretch without him (Knicks, nets, and 76ers).

 

[MizzouKing]

My guess is that one of Fox, Ellis, Monk, or Carter won’t be on the roster at the start of next season. Sometimes you have to wait for the right deal to present itself before you can fully balance the team. This isn’t NBA 2k where you can essentially balance your roster whenever you want. It can be a process.

I hate to lose talent, but Keon's emergence changes the calculus in all this. With his defense and deep shooting, we need Keon to be what he can become and that doesn't happen with Fox and Monk eating all the major minutes. If it were my decision I would hold my breath and move Fox for major frontcourt help and investments in the future (first round picks). We need Monk more than we need Fox, for heart and dawg'ness, and we've shown that we are just fine without him. Some combination of Monk and Keyon running point with the other off the ball.and we have a pretty lethal lineup in both ends.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

@The_Jamal

curious what you think Fox gives us we don’t also have, and maybe better elsewhere

best guard defender? I have Keon > Carter > Fox

best playmaker? Monk > Sabonis > Fox

steals? Monk > Fox

closing? DeRozan > Fox.

this is not meant to be a slam at Fox as much as Monte’s Roster construction and additions.

If you assume Fox was a

B- defender
B+ playmaker
A closer.

we have guys who duplicate his strengths and magnify his weaknesses surrounding him.

What has Carter done to be called our second best guard defender ? Fox is out best scorer we will only beat teams if he’s scoring in the playoffs nobody is scared of Derozan there’s a reason Amen was on Fox despite Derozan killing Brooks. We saw what fox did to GSW in that first round you should look up Derozan playoffs stats

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

What has Carter done to be called our second best guard defender ? Fox is out best scorer we will only beat teams if he’s scoring in the playoffs nobody is scared of Derozan there’s a reason Amen was on Fox despite Derozan killing Brooks. We saw what fox did to GSW in that first round you should look up Derozan playoffs stats

You're not suggesting that Dillon Brooks would ever be an intentional matchup on Fox, I hope

 

[sactowndog]

I did answer your question. I said I don't know how to answer it. That's not how I look at player comparisons. Sure, when you compare his defense overall to Keon's overall, he's not as good. But he CAN be and that does matter. Monk, while he does have an exciting block or steal every once in awhile, is probably just stuck as a sieve defensively at this point. Which is fine, considering his offensive production, but that's worth noting.

And while Keon's probably proven he's an elite shooter at this point, he doesn't touch Fox offensively. Not even on the same planet. So that does and should matter.

He's a better scorer than Monk. Shooting, both incredibly inconsistent, both can get hot. Monk on the LAL was an elite shooter, but we haven't seen much of that here. If you want a trait Fox is by far and away the best at, it's scoring the ball without having the offense created for you.

Monk is a better passer, but that doesn't make Fox a bad playmaker. You tend to act like he doesn't pass at all or that he's incapable. He's got the same Ast rate as Monk.

Again, this isn't how I evaluate talent. Cherry-pick the best traits from other players and compare it all to one guy.

did I say he was? No I did not. I specifically said he was 2nd or 3rd best at everything.

And is Fox better in the first bolded part? I’m looking at the numbers and I thought you would be validated but….

if you look at ISO scoring PPP
Monk 1.05
DeRozan .93
Fox .84

Fox is 2nd to DeRozan on frequency and pts also. 2nd to Monk of EF%.

Fox does lead in TO%.

 

[sactowndog]

What has Carter done to be called our second best guard defender ? Fox is out best scorer we will only beat teams if he’s scoring in the playoffs nobody is scared of Derozan there’s a reason Amen was on Fox despite Derozan killing Brooks. We saw what fox did to GSW in that first round you should look up Derozan playoffs stats

Small sample size but his defensive numbers are pretty darn good. But fine Fox is 2nd best.

As for best scorer, give me the scoring specific numbers that back it up accounting/normalized for possessions.

 

[coolhandluke]

Did anyone notice Malone not coming over to shake hands with Christie at the end of the game? All we got was an awkward thumbs up from afar. Mark my words. The Kings will remember it and be prepared for their next meeting with the Nuggets.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

Did anyone notice Malone not coming over to shake hands with Christie at the end of the game? All we got was an awkward thumbs up from afar. Mark my words. The Kings will remember it and be prepared for their next meeting with the Nuggets.

Most games I’ve seen that’s what Malone does and I think only like 4-5 coaches have shook hands with Christie. The only one I know for sure is Mazulla they talked about this on DLo/KC, at the time of the Boston game he was the only coach to walk over

 

[NewArena]

Call me crazy, but I think having three really good guards is better than having two. If Monk is on Fox's level, that's not a reason to trade one of them.

My thoughts EXACTLY. Imagine trading Fox and as soon as Monk has a bad stretch of games, it'll be "boy, we sure do need another guard that can break the defense down"

 

[megapoxy]

Most games I’ve seen that’s what Malone does and I think only like 4-5 coaches have shook hands with Christie. The only one I know for sure is Mazulla they talked about this on DLo/KC, at the time of the Boston game he was the only coach to walk over

Did anyone notice Malone not coming over to shake hands with Christie at the end of the game? All we got was an awkward thumbs up from afar. Mark my words. The Kings will remember it and be prepared for their next meeting with the Nuggets.

He was hugging Mike Brown whenever the teams played each other, and ofc Jordi that time that MB had covid, since he was his assistant in Denver before coming to the Kings.

 

[sactowndog]

You must be basing this on vibes and vibes alone, because it does not appear to be supported by statistical evidence.
Fox vs. Monk, 2024-25 season
Fox vs. Monk, career

Fox beats Monk in steals based on the raw counting stats, in per game stats, in the per/36 minutes stats, in the per/100 possessions stats, and in the STL% stat, both for this season and for their respective careers. By what metric, exactly, are you making the determination that "steals? Monk > Fox"?


The problem I have with this is that, if you stipulate those assessments as accurate, Fox is still the only guard on the roster that ranks as a B- or better in all three of those categories. Which suggests that he's not the one that the Kings should be trying to get rid of, unless he doesn't want to be here.

you pretty much restated my point.

but the problem is fielding an actual team is not building a fantasy roster.

when you play Fox it means you are not playing one of Keon or Monk (or Carter).

so let’s start with Keon. When Keon is on the floor he is typically taking the opponents biggest offensive threat at guard. That means Fox/Monk is typically at the low wing playing help and closing out on shooters.

in that role the difference between Fox and Malik is negligible and you can argue Malik with .6 blocks per 36 versus Fox with .4 blocks per 36 is slightly better at help-side defense.

now let’s move to Monk on offense. When Monk is on the floor the Kings offense flows better so he often has the ball in his hands which means the ball is not in Fox’s hands. ( if we had 2 balls the analysis would be different)

so where is Fox when Monk has the ball, he is on the Wing looking for a C&S 3. So again let’s compare that role with Keon. Keon shoots 41.9% on catch and shoot 3’s, Fox shoots 31.3% on catch and shoot 3’s. So in that role the team is actually significantly worse.

now this analysis ignores the fall off from Domas and Keegan change if you were to add Smith (vs Lyles) and Isaac (vs Len). In that case the Kings become exponentially better.

it’s paradoxical I get it. But by trading their “best player” the Kings become a better team. Assuming they get replacement level front court players

 

[sactowndog]

Call me crazy, but I think having three really good guards is better than having two. If Monk is on Fox's level, that's not a reason to trade one of them.

sure it is but having 4 vs 3 is of negligible value. While having 3 versus 1 switchable wing is tremendous value

 

[The_Jamal]

you pretty much restated my point.

but the problem is fielding an actual team is not building a fantasy roster.

when you play Fox it means you are not playing one of Keon or Monk (or Carter).

so let’s start with Keon. When Keon is on the floor he is typically taking the opponents biggest offensive threat at guard. That means Fox/Monk is typically at the low wing playing help and closing out on shooters.

in that role the difference between Fox and Malik is negligible and you can argue Malik with .6 blocks per 36 versus Fox with .4 blocks per 36 is slightly better at help-side defense.

now let’s move to Monk on offense. When Monk is on the floor the Kings offense flows better so he often has the ball in his hands which means the ball is not in Fox’s hands. ( if we had 2 balls the analysis would be different)

so where is Fox when Monk has the ball, he is on the Wing looking for a C&S 3. So again let’s compare that role with Keon. Keon shoots 41.9% on catch and shoot 3’s, Fox shoots 31.3% on catch and shoot 3’s. So in that role the team is actually significantly worse.

now this analysis ignores the fall off from Domas and Keegan change if you were to add Smith (vs Lyles) and Isaac (vs Len). In that case the Kings become exponentially better.

it’s paradoxical I get it. But by trading their “best player” the Kings become a better team. Assuming they get replacement level front court players

Can you prove, statistically, we are better offensively with Fox off the floor?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

I'll stipulate that trading Fox is probably the easiest way for the Kings to improve the frontcourt. I reject the premise that it's the path that the Kings need to follow, or even should follow.

when you play Fox it means you are not playing one of Keon or Monk (or Carter).

If you put a gun to my head and said, "Fox, Monk or Ellis, one gotta go," I'm saying Monk.

 

[sactowndog]

Can you prove, statistically, we are better offensively with Fox off the floor?

I again don’t think that was my point. My point was by at least some metrics we are better offensively with
Monk Keon than Fox Keon

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

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