[Game] Hawks vs Kings 11/18/2024, 7pm PST 10pm EST

[The_Jamal]

Caught me before the edit, but I was talking about him present day.

I think the problem is that people we're both trying to picture long-term Keegan, but we're seeing different things. You look at what he did in his rookie year as a shooter to talk about his shooting potential, but I look at what he did in his 2nd year to suggest regressions of a shooter.

We can both be right at the same time, but the NBA is very much a "what have you done for me lately" type of league.

I think he's hit a snag in his offensive development. I thought we saw a small, yet promising jump in year 2. We all collectively gave him a pass for his 3pt shooting with the thought that it only came down because of the offensive focus to expand more areas of his scoring. Fast forward to the start of year 3, he has no good excuses to start the season off below 30% from 3pt.

What’s the bigger picture that you see from Keegan? He’s looking like a high level role player who’s your 4th “option” that plays very good defense.

I think we sort of laid it out.

Floor is Prime Trevor Ariza. Or basically if he never gets better than he is right now.

Median outcome: MPJ with better defense but worse shooting.

Ceiling: Klay

My expectation from him is 17-8, 37%+ from 3 along with the elite defense. He'll never be a Franz/J-Dub/Paolo type, but I think he can still be an incredible "ancillary" star in the vein of a Klay/MPJ type. Sure, that means he'll need to be attached to a Domas/Fox sort of playmaker, but that's how you best maximize his talent.

But tbh, it's kind of hard to comp Keegan. His shooting at his size was always incredibly rare and now he's added the 1-4 defensive versatility and excellent rebounding. But a shaky on-ball game (even if it's developing) makes it tough to see the clear path for him to develop into a Tatum/PG/Kawhi sort of 2-way wing.

 

[Double-K]

The ultimate version of plausible deniability

“we looked at it later (we pinky promise that we did!) and determined that we were totally right about everything!”

"We've investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing."

 

[Caccia]

All this over Murray, but nary a mention of Kevin Huerter — who when his shot isn’t falling doesn’t contribute near as much Keegan.

Take tonight for example. The KINGS shot 20-46 from three despite Huerter being 1-10. He was 4-15 overall. You think that mattered in a 1- point game?

Murray was 3-9 and 1-3 from 3. His lack of offense didn’t hurt near as much as the guy jacking up 10 threes when he isn’t hitting them.

Huerter had some good games but is now a team-worst -4.7 per game this season across 13 games. That includes everyone. Some of the three-pointers that missed last night were close, some were not.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

is this about Keegan?? Because he had an elite rookie year, followed by a sophomore slump, and we’re 14 games into year 3. that’s 1.17 bad years. I’m super unhappy about his progression but please try to stay in reality.

Describing a season where Murray increased his productivity across the board and became a better defender as a "slump" is... an interesting choice.

 

[captain bill]

Describing a season where Murray increased his productivity across the board and became a better defender as a "slump" is... an interesting choice.

true, just referring to 3 point shooting which is the current bugaboo

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

^^^ Even so, I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of referring to a season where a guy shooting 36% from three-point range, while improving in literally every other category as a "bad year." It's not like shooting 36 percent on six attempts is actually bad, it's just bad if you were expecting Murray to be some kind of three-point sniper.

None of which excuses the offensive slump he's in right now, for the record. Just think that people may be too quick to hit the panic button.

 

[sactowndog]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1858843847448564107

Keegan's pops is going at it with some dudes on twitter

He needs to not do that. It’s not going to help anything.

 

[sactowndog]

as a relatively new dad (I have a 2 year old) I can’t imagine having strangers talk poorly about my child. Has to be tough, even knowing it’s just a game and the comments aren’t typically personal. Luckily Keegan stays off social media so he doesn’t have another weight on his shoulders

he has had kids playing high level sports for years. He just can’t do it. And yes I have seen comments about my son in water polo circles and my son in law in other circles. You just have to let it go.

 

[Tetsujin]

he has had kids playing high level sports for years. He just can’t do it. And yes I have seen comments about my son in water polo circles and my son in law in other circles. You just have to let it go.

Yeah i absolutely don’t mind him interacting with the fanbase but he needs to not respond to obvious trolls

 

[Sac.Kings]

Say what you want, but I continue to believe we are not putting Keegan in the best position for him to be successful. We are asking him to be our three point specialist/third star while also asking him to play high level defense at all times, not to mention having to adjust to a new high level scorer in DeRozan. He’s also not a big man but we continue to put him there. He’s more of the Peja mold in terms of being a tall SF. We need more balance in the starting lineup.

 

[Caccia]

You can't watch a player manhandle and throw down the opposing team's star, mute your whistle, and then award that team the winning technical free throw.

But they did. The Kings should protest this one. They have 48 hours.

Another important factor, often overlooked in basketball as well as in soccer, is that the referees have a responsibility to protect the players, whether from "cheap shots" or overly aggressive, dangerous play. That goes for everyone, not just the stars. But of course without the stars, the NBA becomes a collection of faceless Joes.

 

[Elektrik]

I mean, yeah. He's 100% correct. Good for him for accurately painting what Keegan's done this season. He has to shoot better, of course, but there's very few other guys who bring as much defensive value as Keegan in the entire NBA. He's become a very good rebounder. He's showing a better understanding of on-ball scoring and attacking the rim a bit more. His shots just totally off and probably has some confidence issues right now.

I remember a guy about 15-20 years ago who had his own issues but was a pretty damn good defender most of the time, who could also shoot and rebound on occasion. We all thought he was a pretty good player and we were pretty happy to have him playing on the Kings, aside from his occasional need to go charging into the stands and beating up on fans, or doing some damn foolish thing, we all were happy to have him. Now we have the same guy but without the outbursts and suspensions and he’s only just entered his third year.

 

[PorchSurfin]

Nope. Keon's shooting better and playing better defense. Until Huerter gets back to 37%+, it's Keon and it's not close.

This was my whole argument against Huerter and why I advocated for Keon so it is cute to see you finally agree.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

Say what you want, but I continue to believe we are not putting Keegan in the best position for him to be successful. We are asking him to be our three point specialist/third star while also asking him to play high level defense at all times, not to mention having to adjust to a new high level scorer in DeRozan. He’s also not a big man but we continue to put him there. He’s more of the Peja mold in terms of being a tall SF. We need more balance in the starting lineup.

Exactly, the roster construction is weird af.
theyre kinda taking his size advantage away by playing him at the 4. getting a true 4 and using Murrays size at the 2/3 would cause fits for other teams. He showed he can guard Trey last game, i wanna see more of that. But there has too be another starter that can take those bigger match ups so Keegan can harass the little guys.

 

[The_Jamal]

This was my whole argument against Huerter and why I advocated for Keon so it is cute to see you finally agree.

I've literally said Keon should start the whole time. Great "gotcha" LOL

 

[Makaveli]

^^^ Even so, I'm not sure I can get behind the idea of referring to a season where a guy shooting 36% from three-point range, while improving in literally every other category as a "bad year." It's not like shooting 36 percent on six attempts is actually bad, it's just bad if you were expecting Murray to be some kind of three-point sniper.

None of which excuses the offensive slump he's in right now, for the record. Just think that people may be too quick to hit the panic button.

My biggest problem is he can’t step up even a little when he is truly needed. That has to happen on occasion and he hasn’t done it.

 

[hrdboild]

My biggest problem is he can’t step up even a little when he is truly needed. That has to happen on occasion and he hasn’t done it.

He dropped 32 points to lead the team over Golden State in the first play-in game last May so he has done it at least once. And that was probably the Kings biggest post-season win of the last 20 years so I'm surprised you've already forgotten it.

He's still looking for consistency and has struggled lately but this "what have you done for me lately" attitude is something I will continue to fight against. We're fans of a team that most other NBA fans and most former and current NBA players think is a joke. Why are we picking apart our own players? Because good isn't good enough for us? Because we demand greatness to play for Sacramento? 48 wins was fun and everything but now we should tear it down unless we win 60? Where does the line for "reasonable expectations" live for a franchise which is mostly associated with losing?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

He dropped 32 points to lead the team over Golden State in the first play-in game last May so he has done it at least once. And that was probably the Kings biggest post-season win of the last 20 years so I'm surprised you've already forgotten it.

He's still looking for consistency and has struggled lately but this "what have you done for me lately" attitude is something I will continue to fight against. We're fans of a team that most other NBA fans and most former and current NBA players think is a joke. Why are we picking apart our own players? Because good isn't good enough for us? Because we demand greatness to play for Sacramento? 48 wins was fun and everything but now we should tear it down unless we win 60? Where does the line for "reasonable expectations" live for a franchise which is mostly associated with losing?

10 winning seasons in forty years. And two of them were the last two. But yeah, "championship or bust" is a totally reasonable expectation.

 

[206Fan]

He dropped 32 points to lead the team over Golden State in the first play-in game last May so he has done it at least once. And that was probably the Kings biggest post-season win of the last 20 years so I'm surprised you've already forgotten it.

He's still looking for consistency and has struggled lately but this "what have you done for me lately" attitude is something I will continue to fight against. We're fans of a team that most other NBA fans and most former and current NBA players think is a joke. Why are we picking apart our own players? Because good isn't good enough for us? Because we demand greatness to play for Sacramento? 48 wins was fun and everything but now we should tear it down unless we win 60? Where does the line for "reasonable expectations" live for a franchise which is mostly associated with losing?

10 winning seasons in forty years. And two of them were the last two. But yeah, "championship or bust" is a totally reasonable expectation.

When did anyone expect this team to win 60 games? They didn't even make the playoffs last year unless you want to count an arbitrary "play-in" where we lost to a mediocre Pelicans team without their best player. What was the excuse for that? The rest of the league being healthy?
The bar is ridiculously low. Championships should be the goal for every single team every year. If you're not trying to win a ring, then what's all of this for?

Should we be grateful that the Kings finally made the playoffs 2 years ago for the first time in 14 years in a league where half of them make it anyways? Should we never want this team to get better than being first round exits?

Starting to sound like Cleveland Brown fans who know that the season is over as soon as it starts. If it's already done for us, then why even watch these games or root for them to win?

I don't think anybody seriously expects this team to win a ring this season, but we should be progressing towards it right? And if we're not progressing towards it, then I think fans are allowed to express displeasure in the team. Express displeasure in the players, coaches, and FOs. Almost everyone in the organization makes more in 1 year than regular people would in an entire lifetime. Keegan Murray makes 9 million a year dribbling a basketball. It's not the end of the world if I think he's been absolutely trash on offense. None of our players should be free from criticism just because we've been a historically horribly ran franchise.

 

[hrdboild]

When did anyone expect this team to win 60 games? They didn't even make the playoffs last year unless you want to count an arbitrary "play-in" where we lost to a mediocre Pelicans team without their best player. What was the excuse for that? The rest of the league being healthy?
The bar is ridiculously low. Championships should be the goal for every single team every year. If you're not trying to win a ring, then what's all of this for?

Should we be grateful that the Kings finally made the playoffs 2 years ago for the first time in 14 years in a league where half of them make it anyways? Should we never want this team to get better than being first round exits?

Starting to sound like Cleveland Brown fans who know that the season is over as soon as it starts. If it's already done for us, then why even watch these games or root for them to win?

I don't think anybody seriously expects this team to win a ring this season, but we should be progressing towards it right? And if we're not progressing towards it, then I think fans are allowed to express displeasure in the team. Express displeasure in the players, coaches, and FOs. Almost everyone in the organization makes more in 1 year than regular people would in an entire lifetime. Keegan Murray makes 9 million a year dribbling a basketball. It's not the end of the world if I think he's been absolutely trash on offense. None of our players should be free from criticism just because we've been a historically horribly ran franchise.

14 games into the season with Sabonis, Monk, and DeRozan all out injured and you're ready to proclaim regression (or at least lack of progression)? Yeah I think that sounds entitled.

And again -- this is really my point -- Keegan is flat out carrying us on defense by taking on every difficult assignment and mostly doing a great job of slowing them down not to mention his work on the boards. You want to point fingers and feel it is your right as a fan, whatever. I think that's nonsense but you do you. But as for Keegan in particular, he's not even on my radar yet as a guy I'm unhappy with because even when he scores no points he's still making us better with his defense.

 

[iowamcnabb]

14 games into the season with Sabonis, Monk, and DeRozan all out injured and you're ready to proclaim regression (or at least lack of progression)? Yeah I think that sounds entitled.

And again -- this is really my point -- Keegan is flat out carrying us on defense by taking on every difficult assignment and mostly doing a great job of slowing them down not to mention his work on the boards. You want to point fingers and feel it is your right as a fan, whatever. I think that's nonsense but you do you. But as for Keegan in particular, he's not even on my radar yet as a guy I'm unhappy with because even when he scores no points he's still making us better with his defense.

do you have any thoughts on Keegan’s struggles in November? :

22/23- 33% FG 27% 3pt
23/24- 38% FG 26% 3pt
24/25- 43% FG 28% 3pt

It’s the only month in all three years that he has shot less than 30 percent from 3.

He has a few games left in this month to turn it around but it’s an odd pattern.

 

[Tizzy Flip]

do you have any thoughts on Keegan’s struggles in November? :

22/23- 33% FG 27% 3pt
23/24- 38% FG 26% 3pt
24/25- 43% FG 28% 3pt

It’s the only month in all three years that he has shot less than 30 percent from 3.

He has a few games left in this month to turn it around but it’s an odd pattern.

Blame it on daylight savings ending

 

[hrdboild]

do you have any thoughts on Keegan’s struggles in November? :

22/23- 33% FG 27% 3pt
23/24- 38% FG 26% 3pt
24/25- 43% FG 28% 3pt

It’s the only month in all three years that he has shot less than 30 percent from 3.

He has a few games left in this month to turn it around but it’s an odd pattern.

Well last year Fox got injured early on in November and missed a handful of games while Coach Brown tinkered with the rotation trying to find an adequate replacement. Keegan himself got injured on November 20th last year (back) and missed the rest of the month so that was a smaller sample of games and his overall numbers look worse because he started the month going 0 for 7 and 1 for 8 from 3pt range in his first two.

Monk got injured November 11th this year then DeRozan (back) two days later and Sabonis (back) soon after that so we've also been playing short-handed for most of the month this year. I don't remember Keegan's rookie season as well but one game I came across was that early season win against Brooklyn on November 15th (when KD was still there) where the Kings scored 153 points in regulation and garbage time started basically in the third quarter. Keegan played only 12 minutes that game and left early with a back injury then missed the game after that before coming back and later admitting that he was playing through discomfort for several weeks.

So my initial impression is that Keegan has struggled in November mainly because of injuries and a few outlier games dragging down his overall percentages. We seem to have suffered the most from injuries team-wide early in the season in the Mike Brown era and a lot of them are back injuries. Maybe he should consider toning down the intensity of his training camp? Or maybe the NBA should consider lengthening the season by a few weeks so that the games can be spaced out more and eliminate those back-to-back games with travel in between?

 

[Caccia]

So my initial impression is that Keegan has struggled in November mainly because of injuries and a few outlier games dragging down his overall percentages. We seem to have suffered the most from injuries team-wide early in the season in the Mike Brown era and a lot of them are back injuries. Maybe he should consider toning down the intensity of his training camp? Or maybe the NBA should consider lengthening the season by a few weeks so that the games can be spaced out more and eliminate those back-to-back games with travel in between?

I am all for lengthening the season by three or four weeks. Same number of games, but no more back-to-backs. Maybe even have a longer all-star break.

As for the back injuries, both Sabonis and DeRozan have been playing 36.5 minutes per game. Dial it back a little (pun intended)!

 

[The_Jamal]

do you have any thoughts on Keegan’s struggles in November? :

22/23- 33% FG 27% 3pt
23/24- 38% FG 26% 3pt
24/25- 43% FG 28% 3pt

It’s the only month in all three years that he has shot less than 30 percent from 3.

He has a few games left in this month to turn it around but it’s an odd pattern.

I wonder if it's him trying to implement offseason work into his game causing "overthinking" and potentially leading to poor mechanics. I think that's probably keegans biggest weakness is at times you can literally see him try and process what's going on and that leads to him hesitating and making mistakes. Usually great things happen when he just goes; pulls a shot with no hesitation, attacks the rim, etc.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

When did anyone expect this team to win 60 games? They didn't even make the playoffs last year unless you want to count an arbitrary "play-in" where we lost to a mediocre Pelicans team without their best player.

Do you even get how dismissive and entitled "didn't even make the playoffs" sounds when you're talking about a team that won forty-six games? And that's just looking at the season in isolation: the bigger picture is that the Kings as a franchise are historical losers. I'm not even just talking about the Sacramento era, I'm talking about all-time: twenty-six non-losing seasons in seventy-seven years. That's barely more than a third of the time. It absolutely reeks of entitlement to look at the second-most successful run of Kings basketball of your lifetime and be like, "Yeah, but they're not title contenders, so this is all pointless."

What was the excuse for that? The rest of the league being healthy?

What's the excuse for what? The Kings played fun basketball with a team full of guys who are easy to root for, and they won more games than they lost... for only the second time in eighteen years. They finished with a winning record at home and generally gave the fans their money's worth. Why would anybody even need to make excuses for that?

The bar is ridiculously low. Championships should be the goal for every single team every year. If you're not trying to win a ring, then what's all of this for?

The goal of an organization is to win championships. Fans are not obliged to consume sports through the prism of an organization. People used to watch sports to be entertained; a team that wins more than they lose is generally considered entertaining.

I don't know who's responsible for this change in the culture where people decided that sports can only be fun if the teams they're rooting for are competing for championships, but I wish I could go back in time and shoot that person in the head, because what do you mean, "What's it all for?" So, when Sacramento Kings fans made ARCO the toughest place to play for a generation, were you sitting there scowling with your arms folded like, "Look at all these simpletons rooting for these losers like a bunch of suckers... Don't they know that they're wasting their time?" Were you that guy?

 

[iowamcnabb]

I wonder if it's him trying to implement offseason work into his game causing "overthinking" and potentially leading to poor mechanics. I think that's probably keegans biggest weakness is at times you can literally see him try and process what's going on and that leads to him hesitating and making mistakes. Usually great things happen when he just goes; pulls a shot with no hesitation, attacks the rim, etc.

Just looked it up, he shot 37 percent from 3 last year if you take out November. That’s really the range we need him to shoot (37-41). Probably a bit better shooting year last season than I first thought. Hopefully he can turn it around a bit to end this month and end the trend

 

[The_Jamal]

Just looked it up, he shot 37 percent from 3 last year if you take out November. That’s really the range we need him to shoot (37-41). Probably a bit better shooting year last season than I first thought. Hopefully he can turn it around a bit to end this month and end the trend

Yeah I posted that earlier. Take out his first 13 games *or first month* he was like 37.5% i believe. Maybe on the lower end of what we're hoping for, but thats the range he needs to be

 

[PorchSurfin]

Do you even get how dismissive and entitled "didn't even make the playoffs" sounds when you're talking about a team that won forty-six games? And that's just looking at the season in isolation: the bigger picture is that the Kings as a franchise are historical losers. I'm not even just talking about the Sacramento era, I'm talking about all-time: twenty-six non-losing seasons in seventy-seven years. That's barely more than a third of the time. It absolutely reeks of entitlement to look at the second-most successful run of Kings basketball of your lifetime and be like, "Yeah, but they're not title contenders, so this is all pointless."


What's the excuse for what? The Kings played fun basketball with a team full of guys who are easy to root for, and they won more games than they lost... for only the second time in eighteen years. They finished with a winning record at home and generally gave the fans their money's worth. Why would anybody even need to make excuses for that?


The goal of an organization is to win championships. Fans are not obliged to consume sports through the prism of an organization. People used to watch sports to be entertained; a team that wins more than they lose is generally considered entertaining.

I don't know who's responsible for this change in the culture where people decided that sports can only be fun if the teams they're rooting for are competing for championships, but I wish I could go back in time and shoot that person in the head, because what do you mean, "What's it all for?" So, when Sacramento Kings fans made ARCO the toughest place to play for a generation, were you sitting there scowling with your arms folded like, "Look at all these simpletons rooting for these losers like a bunch of suckers... Don't they know that they're wasting their time?" Were you that guy?

Bandwagon Laker and Warrior fans and "#rangz" culture.

 

[PorchSurfin]

Just looked it up, he shot 37 percent from 3 last year if you take out November. That’s really the range we need him to shoot (37-41). Probably a bit better shooting year last season than I first thought. Hopefully he can turn it around a bit to end this month and end the trend

Floated this idea in another thread but I personally think it has to do with Keon starting alongside Murray in the preseason and allowing Murray to get comfortable with not being the main POA defender and then Brown flipping the script and swapping Keon for Heurter garbage ass.