Three Level Attack

[Vinny Basketballerino]

I was a year early in calling this. We couldn't quite make it happen last year with Keegan. DeRozan however is one of the best in the biz, and it completes our offense beautifully.

Here against PHX in overtime after DeMar scored three consecutive mid range shots, it opened it up for Fox to stroll into the lane, then then Fox went on to hit another three consecutive shots. We scored on seven consecutive possessions to close out overtime.

This offense is beautifully constructed.

 

[SacTownKid]

I was a year early in calling this. We couldn't quite make it happen last year with Keegan. DeRozan however is one of the best in the biz, and it completes our offense beautifully.

Here against PHX in overtime after DeMar scored three consecutive mid range shots, it opened it up for Fox to stroll into the lane, then then Fox went on to hit another three consecutive shots. We scored on seven consecutive possessions to close out overtime.

This offense is beautifully constructed.

And this type of ball offensively is playoff ball. Isolation is usually the last thing standing come playoff time. Always has been.

 

[kingsboi]

And this type of ball offensively is playoff ball. Isolation is usually the last thing standing come playoff time. Always has been.

I still don't know if the Playoffs are in sight with the silly amount of wide open three pointers from these teams but it's fun as of now while the season is young

 

[sono]

I still don't know if the Playoffs are in sight with the silly amount of wide open three pointers from these teams but it's fun as of now while the season is young

I agree. Even without Durant they easily could have beaten us tonight. The only reason the Suns lost was that they were as bad as we were from downtown despite their numerous open looks. Even bad shooting teams go hot against us beyond the arc, very humiliating.
Deebo has changed the dynamics of this team offensively only, we still need a solid long wing defender.

 

[kingsboi]

I agree. Even without Durant they easily could have beaten us tonight. The only reason the Suns lost was that they were as bad as we were from downtown despite their numerous open looks. Even bad shooting teams go hot against us beyond the arc, very humiliating.
Deebo has changed the dynamics of this team offensively only, we still need a solid long wing defender.

team is very undisciplined on that side of the ball. Keegan and Huerter showed good effort but as soon as you put Sabonis in a pick and roll its going to be immediate open shot other team about 9 out of 10 times

 

[Telemachus]

team is very undisciplined on that side of the ball. Keegan and Huerter showed good effort but as soon as you put Sabonis in a pick and roll its going to be immediate open shot other team about 9 out of 10 times

Are you aware that the Kings are ranked 10th on defense right now? They are 7th in defensive fg%. Their biggest problem is the inability to make 3s.

 

[Kingster]

There's not enough motion or fast breaks in the offense. Fox role is ???? Is he a point guard? A shooting guard that can't shoot the 3? What exactly? A one on one guard who does make others better, or a player that "gets into his bag" periodically as a point-getter? I don't know and I don't think the coaching staff knows either. Also, I'm not sold about the extent to which DDR will propel the Kings in the playoffs. If Durant had played it could have been a much better measuring stick to view DDRs magnitude against a team with it's best player and a team with quite a bit of length.

The Monk injury status is humongous for this team. If he cannot play, both motion, fast breaks, penetration and plays off the bounce get reduced dramatically, and there's not enough of that already. Heurter becomes absolutely HUGE for this team in the absence of Monk, as he's the only guy that can offensively hit the 3, increase the motion in the offense by hitting shots and make plays for others off the bounce, as well as push the ball up the floor. I don't have the stats, but from what I've seen Monk has had more of an impact in fast breaks with this team than Fox, which I find incredible, but I do think that has been the case. Again, if Monk is out, Heurter needs to play the best ball of career and get the playing time along with it. He's much better this year on offense and defense so I remain hopeful on his progress.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

There's not enough motion or fast breaks in the offense. Fox role is ???? Is he a point guard? A shooting guard that can't shoot the 3? What exactly? A one on one guard who does make others better, or a player that "gets into his bag" periodically as a point-getter? I don't know and I don't think the coaching staff knows either. Also, I'm not sold about the extent to which DDR will propel the Kings in the playoffs. If Durant had played it could have been a much better measuring stick to view DDRs magnitude against a team with it's best player and a team with quite a bit of length.

The Monk injury status is humongous for this team. If he cannot play, both motion, fast breaks, penetration and plays off the bounce get reduced dramatically, and there's not enough of that already. Heurter becomes absolutely HUGE for this team in the absence of Monk, as he's the only guy that can offensively hit the 3, increase the motion in the offense by hitting shots and make plays for others off the bounce, as well as push the ball up the floor. I don't have the stats, but from what I've seen Monk has had more of an impact in fast breaks with this team than Fox, which I find incredible, but I do think that has been the case. Again, if Monk is out, Heurter needs to play the best ball of career and get the playing time along with it. He's much better this year on offense and defense so I remain hopeful on his progress.

DeRozan is not the issue. He's been really good and great in clutch time. They need to make a move for another better fitting player, who has a defensive impact

 

[SacTownKid]

DeRozan is not the issue. He's been really good and great in clutch time. They need to make a move for another better fitting player, who has a defensive impact

At SG? They likely already did. He's been shooting around a lot before games, maybe that means he'll be making a comeback sooner than some think?

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

At SG? They likely already did. He's been shooting around a lot before games, maybe that means he'll be making a comeback sooner than some think?

Are we thinking that he will come in this season and have a great impact on defense than Keon?

 

[SacTownKid]

Are we thinking that he will come in this season and have a great impact on defense than Keon?

I think he can have a great impact on defense the moment he steps on the floor. Obviously he's a rookie but defense usually translates pretty quick. I don't think it's a Keon vs. Carter thing. I think it's possible both eventually own that position in some fashion and will play together more than some might think. Especially if Carter can guard up effectively. Brown played Fox, Davion, and Monk together a lot and it was clearly just a little too small and didn't really fit. He still stayed with it. This might be workable now. I guess we'll find out.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I think he can have a great impact on defense the moment he steps on the floor. Obviously he's a rookie but defense usually translates pretty quick. I don't think it's a Keon vs. Carter thing. I think it's possible both eventually own that position in some fashion and will play together more than some might think. Especially if Carter can guard up effectively. Brown played Fox, Davion, and Monk together a lot and it was clearly just a little too small and didn't really fit. He still stayed with it. This might be workable now. I guess we'll find out.

Someone would have to play less, if he's going to be in the regular rotation. I think we need another 3/4 defender with size

 

[SacTownKid]

Someone would have to play less, if he's going to be in the regular rotation. I think we need another 3/4 defender with size

I mean, at some point someone is getting pushed out of the SG spot or PF spot. I'm not sure adding a SF/PF does much considering DDR plays there some and right now Lyles is getting minutes. Heck, the Kings aren't even rolling with a true backup C most games. Whoever that PF would be would be looking at really marginal minutes unless they're replacing Lyles so in the end it's the same thing. Carter is partly future proofing, but looking at the Kings cap, the future even in the longest sense isn't too far off. Huerter is winding down contractually and Keon is as well.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I mean, at some point someone is getting pushed out of the SG spot or PF spot. I'm not sure adding a SF/PF does much considering DDR plays there some and right now Lyles is getting minutes. Heck, the Kings aren't even rolling with a true backup C most games. Whoever that PF would be would be looking at really marginal minutes unless they're replacing Lyles so in the end it's the same thing. Carter is partly future proofing, but looking at the Kings cap, the future even in the longest sense isn't too far off. Huerter is winding down contractually and Keon is as well.

Do you think they will make a trade this season?

 

[kingsboi]

Are you aware that the Kings are ranked 10th on defense right now? They are 7th in defensive fg%. Their biggest problem is the inability to make 3s.

playing the Raptors twice, Blazers, Hawks & Jazz ought to inflate those stats.

 

[SacTownKid]

Do you think they will make a trade this season?

I don't know, it's hard to say. I can't see a marginal move putting this team over the top if DDR, Fox, and Domas as your trio isn't already putting them knocking right at that door to start with. Looking at the Kings cap is like looking at a brick wall. Re-signing Monk and signing DeMar really puts Montes cap in kind of a holding pattern IMO. On the other side of things, Monte also doesn't really need to dump anyone at the moment. Both Huerter and Lyles won't interfere with the future cap hit as is. If Monte could make a move for another player like maybe DFS and all it cost was someone like Heurter potentially, great. Same issue though, can you hold onto him long term? You certainly shouldn't be throwing picks or value at someone like that unless they are for sure THE missing piece which as of now it's way too early to tell.

 

[sactowndog]

playing the Raptors twice, Blazers, Hawks & Jazz ought to inflate those stats.

we have played 7 teams with records under 500 and have only 6 wins. The teams we have played have had significant players out. It would be a challenge to create an easier schedule and we are still barely above .500

 

[kingsboi]

we have played 7 teams with records under 500 and have only 6 wins. The teams we have played have had significant players out. It would be a challenge to create an easier schedule and we are still barely above .500

I've only had an opportunity to watch three games but the glaring weaknesses is evident in each one thus far.

 

[The_Jamal]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1856179148655337477

Simply just cannot last. The fact we have 6 wins is honestly staggering with this shooting and how much we give up on the other end. Figure this out and you'll see the ceiling potential of this team. It's beyond aggravating, but the Kings shooters simply WILL see positive regression at some point. It's basically impossible for them not to.

 

[SacTownKid]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1856179148655337477

Simply just cannot last. The fact we have 6 wins is honestly staggering with this shooting and how much we give up on the other end. Figure this out and you'll see the ceiling potential of this team. It's beyond aggravating, but the Kings shooters simply WILL see positive regression at some point. It's basically impossible for them not to.

True. The question then is whether or not the high totals are enough. Murray is good for a stretch forward although his first season is still kind of bringing that number up to his average at this point. McBuckets isn't going to be much of factor likely, Monk is streaky as heck. Dude can have one month in the 40's, then will follow it up with 27% for 2 straight but that might be partly because he's an energy 6th man and is often asked to take risks. Lyles was actually pretty consistent last season and the season before looking at the splits.

 

[Kingster]

DeRozan is not the issue. He's been really good and great in clutch time. They need to make a move for another better fitting player, who has a defensive impact

DDR is an excellent player, certainly an upgrade in isolation from Barnes. But so far he's not a great fit for this team. It's not about what Demar does in isolation; it's about how the offense designed with him in it affects the rest of the team. An iso 2-point heavy player on a team co-starring with another iso 2-point heavy player in a league that in unquestionably three point heavy? Now that is a challenge. Would it work? I had my doubts. It's still an open question. So in that sense, yes, he is an issue. In part it's an issue because as I said during the summer I have concerns about whether Brown has the offensive coaching chops to design an offense that maximizes the talents of this team with DDR on it. So far, those doubts have not been assuaged. Still, the season is relatively young. Hopefully, we'll see by January if it clicks. But we can't be too terribly patient with this bunch. After all, Demar is 35. There isn't all the time in the world to figure it out.

 

[The_Jamal]

True. The question then is whether or not the high totals are enough. Murray is good for a stretch forward although his first season is still kind of bringing that number up to his average at this point. McBuckets isn't going to be much of factor likely, Monk is streaky as heck. Dude can have one month in the 40's, then will follow it up with 27% for 2 straight but that might be partly because he's an energy 6th man and is often asked to take risks. Lyles was actually pretty consistent last season and the season before looking at the splits.

Yeah the 4 guys who matter there fox Monk lyles and Keegan. They take about 20 3pa between the 4 of them, so if we say they're underperformed roughly 8-10% as a group, that's another 2 3PM per game. Correct the 3pt defense down and there's how you correct the gap.

 

[iowamcnabb]

DDR is an excellent player, certainly an upgrade in isolation from Barnes. But so far he's not a great fit for this team. It's not about what Demar does in isolation; it's about how the offense designed with him in it affects the rest of the team. An iso 2-point heavy player on a team co-starring with another iso 2-point heavy player in a league that in unquestionably three point heavy? Now that is a challenge. Would it work? I had my doubts. It's still an open question. So in that sense, yes, he is an issue. In part it's an issue because as I said during the summer I have concerns about whether Brown has the offensive coaching chops to design an offense that maximizes the talents of this team with DDR on it. So far, those doubts have not been assuaged. Still, the season is relatively young. Hopefully, we'll see by January if it clicks. But we can't be too terribly patient with this bunch. After all, Demar is 35. There isn't all the time in the world to figure it out.

the point of spacing is to stretch the floor and give your scorers as much room as possible to operate and be efficient. Fox, Deebo and Sabonis have all been incredibly efficient in the paint and midrange. No spacing concerns there at all. Deebo is shooting a career high 3pt percentage and Sabonis has been good too so all that’s fine. The rest of your players are going to score mostly off of shooting and to a lesser extent cutting. They are getting quality looks, we are making 22 percent of our open threes, last in the league. Factoring everything in we are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league. I don’t see that as a scheme, fit or spacing issue. Defensively? Yeh I don’t think our scheme has been good and making adjustments might need to be made on that end.

 

[The_Jamal]

the point of spacing is to stretch the floor and give your scorers as much room as possible to operate and be efficient. Fox, Deebo and Sabonis have all been incredibly efficient in the paint and midrange. No spacing concerns there at all. Deebo is shooting a career high 3pt percentage and Sabonis has been good too so all that’s fine. The rest of your players are going to score mostly off of shooting and to a lesser extent cutting. They are getting quality looks, we are making 22 percent of our open threes, last in the league. Factoring everything in we are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league. I don’t see that as a scheme, fit or space issue. Defensively? Yeh I don’t think our scheme has been good and making adjustments might need to be made on that end.

Honestly the offensive scheme couldn't be working much better. We just can't hit a damn open 3, as you've astutely shown with us being last in open 3pt%. I don't think anyone had Domas and DDR being 2 of our most consistent shooters,but they somehow have been.

Fox, Monk, Keegan, lyles, huerter and Keon just have to be better shooting the ball. There's no real magic pill or fix here rather than just make your damn shots

 

[GWD]

Honestly the offensive scheme couldn't be working much better. We just can't hit a damn open 3, as you've astutely shown with us being last in open 3pt%. I don't think anyone had Domas and DDR being 2 of our most consistent shooters,but they somehow have been.

Fox, Monk, Keegan, lyles, huerter and Keon just have to be better shooting the ball. There's no real magic pill or fix here rather than just make your damn shots

Are the players mentioned intentionally missing their shots? Is it that they don't care enough? Do they need to practice more? Are they unmotivated by their individual and collective situations? Is there an underlying hidden reluctance or rebellion?

Until these questions are answered, verified, and addressed, there will be no miracle improvement. While regressing to an established mean is a remote possibility, the nature of statistics would tend to favor the status quo.

 

[The_Jamal]

Are the players mentioned intentionally missing their shots? Is it that they don't care enough? Do they need to practice more? Are they unmotivated by their individual and collective situations? Is there an underlying hidden reluctance or rebellion?

Until these questions are answered, verified, and addressed, there will be no miracle improvement. While regressing to an established mean is a remote possibility, the nature of statistics would tend to favor the status quo.

Huh? Why would a bad 11 games shooting outweigh entire careers worth of shooting? Are you being serious asking that?

 

[twslam07]

Are we a 3 level attack when we’re last in the league in 3P%?

 

[iowamcnabb]

Huh? Why would a bad 11 games shooting outweigh entire careers worth of shooting? Are you being serious asking that?

there is an ulterior motive to those questions

 

[Kingster]

the point of spacing is to stretch the floor and give your scorers as much room as possible to operate and be efficient. Fox, Deebo and Sabonis have all been incredibly efficient in the paint and midrange. No spacing concerns there at all. Deebo is shooting a career high 3pt percentage and Sabonis has been good too so all that’s fine. The rest of your players are going to score mostly off of shooting and to a lesser extent cutting. They are getting quality looks, we are making 22 percent of our open threes, last in the league. Factoring everything in we are one of the worst 3 point shooting teams in the league. I don’t see that as a scheme, fit or spacing issue. Defensively? Yeh I don’t think our scheme has been good and making adjustments might need to be made on that end.

Apparently, you're talking about how ideally this is supposed to work. Sure, ideally. But as you point out in reality this offense hasn't produced the 3-point shooting it needs. The issue is why are the Kings bad at 3-point shooting? Frankly, the longer it goes on the less I can believe it's just a team slump with no apparent reason, something like catching a flu bug.

As others have said, typically shooters need rhythm, and that rhythm is engendered by being comfortable with when, where and how one is going to get the ball. It also helps to "touch" the ball fairly frequently, which in turn is helped by the ball being passed frequently and shared amongst the players on the floor. "A moving ball has energy," as they say. A quality look every now again isn't the same as passing the ball from player to player and getting "quality touches." From what I can tell the ball doesn't have nearly the energy of the past few years because it is an iso-heavy offense, also more of a slow-down offense (fast breaks are seldom unless caused by a turnover). It seems to me that it's a bipolar offense - on the one hand needing to oftentimes feed DDR in post-like situations and have Fox do his iso-thing to get mid-range 2-point shots - while on the other hand needing the player and ball movement necessary to facilitate the 3-point shooting crowd. Conceptually speaking, the offense seems to sacrifice the 3-point shooters at the altar of the 2-point shooters. Normally in this modern era you'd think it would be the other way around, but the 2-point shooters on this team are the better players, so there you go.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Apparently, you're talking about how ideally this is supposed to work. Sure, ideally. But as you point out in reality this offense hasn't produced the 3-point shooting it needs. The issue is why are the Kings bad at 3-point shooting? Frankly, the longer it goes on the less I can believe it's just a team slump with no apparent reason, something like catching a flu bug.

As others have said, typically shooters need rhythm, and that rhythm is engendered by being comfortable with when, where and how one is going to get the ball. It also helps to "touch" the ball fairly frequently, which in turn is helped by the ball being passed frequently and shared amongst the players on the floor. "A moving ball has energy," as they say. A quality look every now again isn't the same as passing the ball from player to player and getting "quality touches." From what I can tell the ball doesn't have nearly the energy of the past few years because it is an iso-heavy offense, also more of a slow-down offense (fast breaks are seldom unless caused by a turnover). It seems to me that it's a bipolar offense - on the one hand needing to oftentimes feed DDR in post-like situations and have Fox do his iso-thing to get mid-range 2-point shots - while on the other hand needing the player and ball movement necessary to facilitate the 3-point shooting crowd. Conceptually speaking, the offense seems to sacrifice the 3-point shooters at the altar of the 2-point shooters. Normally in this modern era you'd think it would be the other way around, but the 2-point shooters on this team are the better players, so there you go.

Could be, but I’ll place my money on slump for now. Going from one of the better three point shooting teams to the worst because of Demar’s isos doesn’t seem to be the most plausible explanation in my opinion. One other thing I’ll mention, and this is a big one, the year we had the number one offense we had a bunch of HB isos in the mix. That helped us a ton because he got to the line and made a bunch of free throws. It also helped us when we went cold from three and needed to stop a run. Barnes didn’t do as much of that last season (partially because he was asked to step back in the offense) and was part of the reason we dropped in rating. Having said that, I would be open to mixing up our offense if we are still talking about this in a week or two.