What will it take to get better internally

#1
Okay listened to a podcast about what the Kings need to do to be better. It was okay but I think this board might do better. Let me start…

1) Sabonis outside shot.
they mentioned this improvement and I agree. Unless Sabonis can hit a shot beyond 18 ft with some consistency and regularity …. opponents will sag off Sabonis in key games and clog up the lane. To be better than a play-in team teams have to play Sabonis honest.

2) Keon shoot on dribble hand-off
Keon makes the Kings defense much better but it can’t come at the expense of the offense. Keon is a good catch and shoot shooter but needs to be part of the dribble hand off splits. If Keon become a more impactful player on offense the Kings get much better.

3) Keegan refinding his 3
Keegan went from .411 to .358 from 3. Him making 3 point shots is a key aspect of the Kings offense. I think some of it was fatigue some was less time to get it off, some was more shots on the move. But even on C&S 3’s Keegan went from 41.3% to 37.5%.
 
#3
Fox needs to not settle for the 3 as often. He is elite in the mid/short range.....so get there as much as possible for his shot and set up the rest of the guys for better looks.

Murray and the team will have a better year, if Fox does this.
All of the above, but as I wrote during the past season, the team plays better when Fox has 6+ assists. Sabonis cannot do it all himself. Monk may be gone, leaving a huge hole in both scoring and assists.

Can Keegan and Keon become better passers? The only rotation player with fewer assists per 36 minutes than Murray was Harrison Barnes. Both are at the bottom of the table:

https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612758/players-traditional?PerMode=Per36&SeasonType=Regular Season&dir=D&sort=AST
 
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gunks

Hall of Famer
#4
Totally agree with Domas needing an outside shot and Fox needing to take less outside shots.

Fox taking 8 3s in a game is disgusting. His middy game is ELITE and he totally went away from it last season, not sure if that's on him or the coaching but it needs to be corrected next season. I also think we're a better team when he's setting guys up with the drive n dish vs settling for "spray" 3s all game.

I'm optimistic Keegan's 3 point shot will come back, and wouldn't be surprised to see him take the leap next season that everyone was expecting him to take last season, which would be huge for us. I still think he can be a part of a Sac "big 3"

Keon is fine as a catch 'n shooter, he's out there for defense and is already an upgrade over Kev.

Barnes to the bench PLEASE! He's a great player in low pressure situations, put him up against an opponents 2nd stringers and he'll thrive! We might need more bench scoring anyways if Malik dips.
 

kingsboi

Hall of Famer
#9
couple of things just off the top of my head would be to increase Sabonis shot selection for once and Fox to take less three's and continue to excel where he is the best and that's inside the arc with three's sprinkled in every now and then. As far as the rest, hope that Keegan continues to make strides every season, even if its in increments
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#10
I think if Fox can control the 3 a little better and return to his drive/middy/dish game as the focal point of his offensive production, we can get the rest of the offense operating more like the 22/23 version, and the team continues to make defensive strides especially from Keegan and Keon we'll be in pretty solid shape. Keon would replace Kevin in the starting lineup and hopefully Kevin can be a 6MOTY player regardless of whether Monk returns or not.

If all that can happen I'd feel a lot more comfortable if we just try to draft the long term replacement for Barnes at 13 and maybe take two cracks at it if anyone is selling a pick.

Unfortunately I do think we will lose Monk and be forced into making a big move, so I just hope this move doesn't wipe out our depth.
 
#11
yeah that was their number 2 but no mention of Keon from them
Yeah, I'm not sure that he really needs to do much more on offense. I do think he will be more comfortable, which will lead to some more, but the team seems to be so much better on defense with him, that it out weighs scoring a few more points a night on average with someone else in his spot.
 
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Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#16
Internal growth won't be enough the Kings need to upgrade/move Barnes and a few other pieces Sabonis/Fox/Monk?Murray is nice but they need to find their Aaron Gordon/KCP and Barnes/Huerter ain't it.
This feels more like a "yes, and" sort of thread. Yes, the Kings definitely need to upgrade personnel in certain areas, AND certain players on the roster need to adapt/improve.

It's tough to assume what individual players need to improve upon when it's not sure that maybe 3 main rotation pieces might not be back next year (Barnes, Huerter, Monk), so the focus seems to be on the main cogs that aren't going anywhere. That said, of these three, I do think Huerter has room to improve. I don't think we'll see any changes from Barnes or Monk. They are who they are, both for better (Monk) or worse (Barnes).
 
#17
Better coaching.

We used schemes that did not align with the strengths of our players on both offense and defense. There was good improvement in our key players individually (Fox, Sabonis and Keegan) but the sum of the parts was lesser.

I think we will improve if we address most of the following problems.

Offense:
Lack of transition game and pace - for a team that lacks individual 1-on-1 creators, this is an easy way to create separation and get better shots. Drive and kick works better when the opposition is scrambling to get into position on defense. What's the point in having the fastest player in the league if we're not going to press that advantage? We got so out of practice that we regularly fluffed many fast break opportunities with numbers advantage by the end of the season.
Over-reliance on DHO action - as we failed to push the pace, we tried to create from the perimeter and wasted time and energy trying to juke out defenders in order to create separation. We traded the superior standstill threes for the less efficient movement threes.
Lack of variety in attack - we had a balanced attack last year, when we scored on all three levels as a team. Domas was effective in the paint, Fox killed in the midrange and our shooters excelled from the perimeter. This year, the shot chart changed with the team trying to play like the Warriors, who don't have a paint presence. We did not even know how to pass the ball to Sabonis when he had good position in the paint. We didn't exploit enough when HB had a mismatch on iso situations. We became a live by the three, die by the three team.
Lack of effective ATO plays - we can count on one hand the number of successful ATO (after timeout) plays in the entire season. Invariably, we fell back to making go Fox 1-on-5 as the go-to ATO play, when we needed a bucket. Every great team has signature plays that they run when they need a bucket. The Kings have none. There is no two-man game between Fox and Sabonis, where teams would be forced to pick their poison. Monk had better chemistry with Sabonis than Fox. In general, we need more set plays rather than asking the team to figure out things based on what the defense gives us. We have to force the defense to adjust to us.
Lack of bench development - we played the regular season like the playoffs and missed the playoffs. We don't have a bench that has played many years together. This is just Year 2 and we have lost TD, Metu, and Queta. We added Sasha and McGee. Instead on building on the chemistry with Len, we prioritized McGee in a repeat of the KZ Okpala experiment. Our bench players needed consistent playing time to build more chemistry with each other. Instead we were pulling players like a playoff rotation at the start of the regular season. The rotations typically tighten after the ASB, when we had enough time to evaluate the bench.
Lack of self awareness - for the most part of the season, the Kings were delusional about their offense and claimed that they can score with anyone. In fact, we regressed when the rest of the league improved. The rising tide did not lift our boat.

Defense:
Switch at all costs scheme - for a team that lacks length, this is not a viable scheme as the opposition got favorable switches and attacked the middle easily. As we don't have a shot blocker, our defenders had to shrink to the paint to cover and give up the open corner threes. Spraying more threes was a good option for our opponents. For the most part of the season, we didn't know when to play man and when to switch. Only after Brown was forced to play Keon after Kevin went down, that we had a defensive player that can make schemes work.
How to stop a run - when teams go on a run, we invariably substituted players for more offense. We did not try to add more defense to disrupt our opponents offense. It might work better to improve our point of attack defense and get the ball out of the hot hand rather than trying to trade points.

Defense is more of a roster construction issue than a coaching issue. I'm not sure how much we can improve that with internal growth. Monte knew that we lacked an interior defensive presence to support Sabonis and we didn't do anything about it.
 
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#18
Yeah, I'm not sure that he really needs to do much more on offense. I do think he will be more comfortable, which will lead to some more, but the team seems to be so much better on defense with him, that it out weighs scoring a few more points a night on average with someone else in his spot.
So I agree he is an improvement defensively. But that doesn’t mean he can’t be used as an option on dribble hand-offs
 
#19
Internal growth won't be enough the Kings need to upgrade/move Barnes and a few other pieces Sabonis/Fox/Monk?Murray is nice but they need to find their Aaron Gordon/KCP and Barnes/Huerter ain't it.
my opinion on Monte’s roster construction is well documented. That said we can and should be looking for some internal improvement to improve as a team.
 
#20
This feels more like a "yes, and" sort of thread. Yes, the Kings definitely need to upgrade personnel in certain areas, AND certain players on the roster need to adapt/improve.

It's tough to assume what individual players need to improve upon when it's not sure that maybe 3 main rotation pieces might not be back next year (Barnes, Huerter, Monk), so the focus seems to be on the main cogs that aren't going anywhere. That said, of these three, I do think Huerter has room to improve. I don't think we'll see any changes from Barnes or Monk. They are who they are, both for better (Monk) or worse (Barnes).
You think????

coming from me that seemed sort of self evident don’t you think? Haha

while absolutely the roster is a problem to avoid a play-in / first round exit we absolutely need improvement from the players on the roster also.

Another play-in flame out is going to trigger some hard decisions most on this forum don’t want to think about.
 
#21
It doesn’t make my top 3 but I’m going to give a shout out to Kessler Edwards assuming we resign him. It was on low volume but he shot 40.4% on C&S 3’s. Given his defensive skills a line up of him and Keon at the 2-3 could go a long way to getting us into a top 10 defensive team. But that means Keon has to be able to shoot off the dribble hand off. Hence another reason for Keon as my #2.
 
#22
Don’t sleep on Davion taking a leap. Shot about 40% from 3 the last half of the year, if he can continue that on higher volume, add in a floater, be a little more dynamic off the dribble. Heard he’s been working with Mike Brown, Fox and Steph Curry over the summer so far.
We talk a lot about Keon, but Davion's 2nd half was just as much a breakout imo:

18.6 MPG
7.4 PPG
1.8 RPG
2.1 APG
41.6% from 3 on 2.75 3PA/game
60.6% TS
-Elite defense

That's some Pat Bev type production. If he can hold this into next season, it's an utterly massive boost to our overall team defense and secures the back-up guard slot.
 
#23
It doesn’t make my top 3 but I’m going to give a shout out to Kessler Edwards assuming we resign him. It was on low volume but he shot 40.4% on C&S 3’s. Given his defensive skills a line up of him and Keon at the 2-3 could go a long way to getting us into a top 10 defensive team. But that means Keon has to be able to shoot off the dribble hand off. Hence another reason for Keon as my #2.
I’m not impressed by Kessler. His offense is non-existent and while he has length he doesn’t dominate on the defensive end like Keon.
 
#24
We talk a lot about Keon, but Davion's 2nd half was just as much a breakout imo:

18.6 MPG
7.4 PPG
1.8 RPG
2.1 APG
41.6% from 3 on 2.75 3PA/game
60.6% TS
-Elite defense

That's some Pat Bev type production. If he can hold this into next season, it's an utterly massive boost to our overall team defense and secures the back-up guard slot.
Mitchell’s shot definetly improved. If he can keep it up it will be hard to keep him off the floor. I have noticed that he is great staying in front of players but I don’t see him disrupting passing lanes as much as Keon. It may be due to his length but it he can add that he will get consistent time
 
#26
Mitchell’s shot definetly improved. If he can keep it up it will be hard to keep him off the floor. I have noticed that he is great staying in front of players but I don’t see him disrupting passing lanes as much as Keon. It may be due to his length but it he can add that he will get consistent time
Yeah Mitchell's primary strength is PoA defense. He had some of the best lateral movement I've ever seen in beating the offensive player to a spot. There's not many defenders I'd rather have at the POA.

He does struggle with defensive versatility. He's not nearly as component when forced into a switch and his length does hurt him sometimes contesting shots.

What's truly exciting about Keon is he's shown elite PoA defense from 1-3, he's shown he can switch, he'll contest at the rim, he has incredible hands to get strips on the ball and he has an immense understanding of how to play passing lanes. Davion is a bit more of a niche defender where he's strictly a guard defender where Keon can do it all
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#27
TBH I'm not even sure WTF a "spray three" is but if I never hear this term again it will be about one time too late.
It's when the ball is in the paint, then gets kicked out to the perimeter for a three. Just like with threes coming immediately off offensive rebounds, the shooter is generally quite open and receives the ball while facing the hoop. I haven't seen any stats specifically linked to spray threes but in principle they should hit at a very high %age.
 
#28
We talk a lot about Keon, but Davion's 2nd half was just as much a breakout imo:

18.6 MPG
7.4 PPG
1.8 RPG
2.1 APG
41.6% from 3 on 2.75 3PA/game
60.6% TS
-Elite defense

That's some Pat Bev type production. If he can hold this into next season, it's an utterly massive boost to our overall team defense and secures the back-up guard slot.
yeah I agree. It’s why I’m okay not spending huge money on Malik. I would rather get another forward or backup center. Davion needs to get better at running an offense however.

I’m curious how much money Malik gets.

In college football O Lineman are getting good NIL money. Why? It’s really hard to find 6’4” 280 lb guys with a nasty streak. In women’s college Volleyball the Libero is a key position and a good portion of college Libero’s are walk-ons. Again because finding that 6’ 1” outside hitter that can move her feet and play back row is really hard.

in basketball it’s wings that are the hardest to find: 6’8” and still quick. And when you have a couple of them like the Celtics you are damn hard to beat. It’s those guys teams will over pay and given the penalty of the 2nd Apron they may well skimp on 6’ 3” guards.

Malik may not get as much as he thinks.
 
#29
Yeah Mitchell's primary strength is PoA defense. He had some of the best lateral movement I've ever seen in beating the offensive player to a spot. There's not many defenders I'd rather have at the POA.

He does struggle with defensive versatility. He's not nearly as component when forced into a switch and his length does hurt him sometimes contesting shots.

What's truly exciting about Keon is he's shown elite PoA defense from 1-3, he's shown he can switch, he'll contest at the rim, he has incredible hands to get strips on the ball and he has an immense understanding of how to play passing lanes. Davion is a bit more of a niche defender where he's strictly a guard defender where Keon can do it all
yeah to be honest I am quietly really excited about Keon. I can’t wait to see his growth next year. Keon is far and away Monte’s best draft/FA pick.