[Game] Kings @ Minnesota Timberwolves, 3/1/2024, 5:00p PT/8:00p ET

[hrdboild]

shortest Wingspan??? It’s longer than Davion or Malik…. And his standing reach at 8’ 4” is extremely good for a point with his quickness. In fact it’s why I added him to the list of WINGS because even though he is truly a primary ball handler his length as you point out allows him to be effective on defense.

Fox, Keon, Kessler, Murray and McGee are the ones with good or very good length for their position.

I wasn't talking about shortest wingspan on the team, you posted a list of 28 players -- I was referring to that list when I wrote "out of all the players you listed..." and quoted your post.

But it looks like I overlooked Jamal Murray being 1/2" shorter than Fox in the wingspan department, so I made a mistake there. The guy's always injured though so he's easy to overlook.

 

[sactowndog]

Isn't it interesting though that out of all the players you listed, the guy with the shortest wingspan (Fox) is the one leading the league in deflections per game? He's also second to SGA in steals per game.

I also think there's an aspect of this that you've overlooked -- you mention Keegan struggling against Booker this season defensively (which is true) but I don't think that's because Booker is too small/quick for him to stay in front of. Booker is incredibly crafty at pump faking and drawing fouls even when you do stay in front of him. In fact, a lot of his points are scored on back to the basket mid-range shots where he puts the defender on his back and leverages them to create space for a fadeaway jumper -- a skill which obviously has nothing to do with speed and requires rather a disciplined defender who won't fall for the fakes and can contest a fadeaway without getting into Booker's body. Those are incredibly difficult plays for anyone to defend, let alone a second year player who has not yet been able to receive the benefit of the doubt from the officials.

Shai just straight up jumps into people for calls though and there's no beating that in 2024 unless you're the Lakers and you have the anti-"ref mode" cheat code.

The quickest longer players are hard for anyone to defend which is why being quicker and longer than NBA average matters. And it’s not just Booker. I also watched Vassell go by Keegan repeatedly live at the Spurs game. The Kings switched Fox on him. But with a 6’ 10” wingspan and ??? standing reach he was too big for Fox.

Vassell torched us for 32 points. The only guy we had who could possibly match up was Kessler and his butt was glued to the bench.

 

[sactowndog]

I wasn't talking about shortest wingspan on the team, you posted a list of 28 players -- I was referring to that list when I wrote "out of all the players you listed..." and quoted your post.

But it looks like I overlooked Jamal Murray being 1/2" shorter than Fox in the wingspan department, so I made a mistake there. The guy's always injured though so he's easy to overlook.

not to mention I was largely comparing Fox to wings. People ignore the fact Fox often has to guard significantly bigger players because the Kings don’t have that 2-3 stopper anywhere on their roster they are willing to play.

 

[hrdboild]

it’s a pretty big hit on offense and on the boards as Kevin gets a ton of rebounds. We really don’t need someone who can handle the ball with Fox and Domas. You need someone who can play dribble hand-off with Sabonis and catch and shoot with Fox. He has shown he can catch and shoot but it’s not clear he can run around a Sabonis screen, get square, and shoot like Huerter can.

If Huerter were still shooting 40% from deep (33rd in the league last season in 3p%) he would be all but untouchable. But he's not been elite this season -- at 36.9% he ranks around 100th and just .9% better than Ellis. Obviously swapping Ellis in for Huerter full-time would mean a significant change to the offense but shouldn't last season's playoff series factor into this as well? Golden State completely negated that dribble hand-off game between Huerter and Sabonis and forced us to run the offense through Fox instead.

In that context, having a more capable defender who can catch and shoot and occasionally run plays as a secondary shot creator might make more sense for us as a long-term strategy. Especially when Ellis is a lot cheaper, already signed for three two more years, and Huerter probably has decent trade value even after a down year because of his previous track record as a shooter.

 

[hrdboild]

The quickest longer players are hard for anyone to defend which is why being quicker and longer than NBA average matters. And it’s not just Booker. I also watched Vassell go by Keegan repeatedly live at the Spurs game. The Kings switched Fox on him. But with a 6’ 10” wingspan and ??? standing reach he was too big for Fox.

Vassell torched us for 32 points. The only guy we had who could possibly match up was Kessler and his butt was glued to the bench.

I don't know why you insist on arguing points nobody else is arguing while responding to their posts, but fine -- I'll swerve with you and meet you where you're at. If your point is that we need more lengthy wing defenders on the team who can defend 2/3's who are poor matchups for both Fox and Murray than you're preaching to the converted. At least 60% of my Kings related posts are about how we need to stop signing shooters who can't defend every year and start signing proven defenders with that cap space instead. It does us no good having all of our defensive specialists rotting on the bench. Putting Ellis into the starting lineup is one way to accomplish a similar effect without trading anybody but you seem opposed to that idea. How do you propose we get another wing defender into the lineup if we're going to be playing Huerter and Monk 30+ mpg each at the SG position?

 

[sactowndog]

If Huerter were still shooting 40% from deep (33rd in the league last season in 3p%) he would be all but untouchable. But he's not been elite this season -- at 36.9% he ranks around 100th and just .9% better than Ellis. Obviously swapping Ellis in for Huerter full-time would mean a significant change to the offense but shouldn't last season's playoff series factor into this as well? Golden State completely negated that dribble hand-off game between Huerter and Sabonis and forced us to run the offense through Fox instead.

In that context, having a more capable defender who can catch and shoot and occasionally run plays as a secondary shot creator might make more sense for us as a long-term strategy. Especially when Ellis is a lot cheaper, already signed for three two more years, and Huerter probably has decent trade value even after a down year because of his previous track record as a shooter.

So Kevin is shooting on the move running off screens where Ellis is currently purely a catch and shoot 3 point shooter. For example on pull up 3’s Huerter shoots 42.7 and Ellis shoots 26.1.

now to be fair on just catch and shoot 3’s. Ellis is at 41.2 on 1.2 attempts a game. And Huerter is 35.2 on 4.3 attempts.

 

[sactowndog]

I don't know why you insist on arguing points nobody else is arguing while responding to their posts, but fine -- I'll swerve with you and meet you where you're at. If your point is that we need more lengthy wing defenders on the team who can defend 2/3's who are poor matchups for both Fox and Murray than you're preaching to the converted. At least 60% of my Kings related posts are about how we need to stop signing shooters who can't defend every year and start signing proven defenders with that cap space instead. It does us no good having all of our defensive specialists rotting on the bench. Putting Ellis into the starting lineup is one way to accomplish a similar effect without trading anybody but you seem opposed to that idea. How do you propose we get another wing defender into the lineup if we're going to be playing Huerter and Monk 30+ mpg each at the SG position?

sorry I thought you were arguing Keegan didn’t struggle against quicker 2-3 type players.

I don’t really have an answer to solve it without some sort of trade. I think this team is just poorly constructed.

 

[LoungeLizard]

These areas have already been addressed in prior posts. Research can lead to enlightenment.

When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[dude12]

The coaches absolutely influence how the players are physically and mentally performing on the floor. Otherwise, the coaches are of no use. These people are human beings ahead of "professional basketball players". Not surprisingly, they react to influences as a human being first. Thus, it is incumbent on the coaching staff to deal with perceived weaknesses, whether they be physical or mental, in a way to strengthen and improve performance through positive human interactions.

Your still wrong on your hot takes about the coaching staff.

 

[GWD]

Your still wrong on your hot takes about the coaching staff.

Well, at least your enthusiasm is admirable.

 

[GWD]

When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Ooooh. Deep. But misguided.

 

[GWD]

It's not a Straw Man argument when you literally said Browns practices were too hard and it was mentally abusing to our players psyche.

Try remembering your own statements before claiming I'm the ignorant one

Do the research to support the allegation. Quote the specific posts if you can. Specifically, find the words "too hard" and "abusing" in the context being fabricated. I accept the apology when it rightfully comes.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1763804563487035478

Rudy is one of the greatest rim protectors to play the game but on the perimeter the dude might be the most hopeless player I’ve ever seen.

 

[iowamcnabb]

Even in wins the game threads are disasters haha.

I took my own advice and decided to go outside more.

 

[The_Jamal]

Even if this is true, giving a potential playoff opponent this kind of ammunition -- "I'm pretty sure we can sweep those guys in a 7 game series" is a poor strategic move. Doubly so when the last playoff series win in franchise history was 20 years ago.

NBA players absolutely remember comments like this and just adding more fuel onto the fire just makes 0 sense

 

[hrdboild]

sorry I thought you were arguing Keegan didn’t struggle against quicker 2-3 type players.

I don’t really have an answer to solve it without some sort of trade. I think this team is just poorly constructed.

Well, you were half right. I haven't watched enough games this season to really comment either way on Keegan's overall defense against SGs but I did see a couple of the Phoenix games and I don't think he had a problem with Booker's speed, just his veteran savvy. I also wouldn't read too much into what you see in one game. Everyone has a bad night once in awhile and sometimes NBA players just get on one and can't be stopped. Especially when foul calls and non-calls remain so frustratingly subjective and inconsistent. Maybe this qualifies as a hot take, but sometimes when I'm watching NBA games what looks like poor defense on the surface is just a guy trying to figure out what is or is not a legal defending position on any given night. Because I sure as hell can't tell most of the time judging by the calls. Keegan is so earnest in his approach -- he always wants to make the textbook right play -- that he ends up being the guy on our team who struggles with this the most.

My point regarding Fox was that larger wingspans are supposed to lead to more deflections and steals but Fox has been 'top of the league' elite in both categories with a smaller than average wingspan. Granted he does have good size for the PG position but reducing perimeter defense down to wingspans and standing reach is a common tendency that I regard as over-simplification. My comments about Booker are aimed at the same point -- wingspan is a tool but a lot of what works on defense is mental rather than physical. Good scorers are going to use screens and shot fakes to shed defenders and get them off balance. Better physical tools can help a player recover faster and widen their margin for error but there's really no substitute for playing smart defense in the first place and knowing who you are defending and what their tendencies are.

So to sum up, I don't really care if any potential defender we trade for has a good wingspan or not -- I care about their reaction time, their work ethic, and their attitude. I don't like it when coaches forces players to play up a position on defense because I think that's putting them in a position where they're likely to fail, but I don't care to look at wingspans anymore.

 

[PorchSurfin]

sorry I thought you were arguing Keegan didn’t struggle against quicker 2-3 type players.

I don’t really have an answer to solve it without some sort of trade. I think this team is just poorly constructed.

Poorly constructed lmao. Always down to take a Monte shot ain't ya. This "poorly constructed" team could definitely upset one of the higher seeded teams quite easily.

I'll give you Vassell, I have wanted him over Huerter for a minute. I'll give you Keegan (as a 6'8"/6'9" forward) isn't as quick as SGs like Booker (even if he is quite remarkable at recovering to contest shots and tell me how many PFs are quick enough when defending at the POA, I'll wait).

What I'm not giving you is the team Monte inherited is poorly constructed. This is legit year 2 of Montes vision and dammit we are still a team that is dangerous and in need of maybe a couple/few tweaks.

There were 17+ years of teams that were "poorly constructed". This ain't it fam. This is a decently constructed team with room for improvement both internally and with external resources.

Get off your high horse.

 

[kingsboi]

https://twitter.com/statuses/1763954402283364622

didn't he once do this?

 

[KingsFanSince85]

So much concern about free throws. I'm going to say it one last time. Poor free throw shooting, by otherwise able shooters, is a COACHING issue. How it is taught and practiced, how it is rewarded/punished, how it is mentally prepared for, all factor into results. The King's coaches need a comprehensive course in educational and performance improvement techniques.

Now all the rabid fans on here can chime in about how wrong this take is while without a clue about a real solution to this year-long weakness. Flame away.

The bolded portion is especially hilarious considering you offered nothing but a baseless opinion. Which is likely why you expected to be “flamed”.

How about, you know, offering up some worthwhile, factually based evidence to support your assertion? I mean, you’re positioning yourself as a qualified expert on the subject. So, please, educate everyone.

Burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how it is undeniably a coaching issue.

Hint: Saying “how it is taught and practiced, how it is rewarded/punished, how it is mentally prepared for“ is not evidence. That’s nothing but speculative, unsubstantiated nonsense.

I'm not particularly inclined to "flame away", but I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've ever seen someone so dedicated to making the argument that coaches are responsible for their players' mental lapses..

Except that he didn’t even make an argument. He simply posted a baseless claim. With not one shred of evidence to support it.

You know why? Because he can’t!

Isn’t it ironic how the guy that worked his way into a multimillion dollar gig that millions of fans wished they were smart or talented enough to secure themselves is the one that is dumb while the millions of fans that don’t have the job and are doing something completely different with their lives have all the answers?

You’d think these Billion dollar owners would have realized by now that all they need to do is scour internet message boards to find their next coaching and/or front office geniuses.

 

[sactowndog]

Well, you were half right. I haven't watched enough games this season to really comment either way on Keegan's overall defense against SGs but I did see a couple of the Phoenix games and I don't think he had a problem with Booker's speed, just his veteran savvy. I also wouldn't read too much into what you see in one game. Everyone has a bad night once in awhile and sometimes NBA players just get on one and can't be stopped. Especially when foul calls and non-calls remain so frustratingly subjective and inconsistent. Maybe this qualifies as a hot take, but sometimes when I'm watching NBA games what looks like poor defense on the surface is just a guy trying to figure out what is or is not a legal defending position on any given night. Because I sure as hell can't tell most of the time judging by the calls. Keegan is so earnest in his approach -- he always wants to make the textbook right play -- that he ends up being the guy on our team who struggles with this the most.

My point regarding Fox was that larger wingspans are supposed to lead to more deflections and steals but Fox has been 'top of the league' elite in both categories with a smaller than average wingspan. Granted he does have good size for the PG position but reducing perimeter defense down to wingspans and standing reach is a common tendency that I regard as over-simplification. My comments about Booker are aimed at the same point -- wingspan is a tool but a lot of what works on defense is mental rather than physical. Good scorers are going to use screens and shot fakes to shed defenders and get them off balance. Better physical tools can help a player recover faster and widen their margin for error but there's really no substitute for playing smart defense in the first place and knowing who you are defending and what their tendencies are.

So to sum up, I don't really care if any potential defender we trade for has a good wingspan or not -- I care about their reaction time, their work ethic, and their attitude. I don't like it when coaches forces players to play up a position on defense because I think that's putting them in a position where they're likely to fail, but I don't care to look at wingspans anymore.

I think length for the position they play can impact defense. Fox isn’t going to guard a 4 as he simply isn’t big enough. They would do what happens to Davion which is simply rise up and shot over him as if he wasn’t there.

reaction time, work ethic and attitude all matter but so does length. If it didn’t then Davion truly could guard 3’s and I think we have proven that isn’t true.

oh and I have watched pretty much every Kings game plus a number others.

 

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

The bolded portion is especially hilarious considering you offered nothing but a baseless opinion. Which is likely why you expected to be “flamed”.

How about, you know, offering up some worthwhile, factually based evidence to support your assertion? I mean, you’re positioning yourself as a qualified expert on the subject. So, please, educate everyone.

Burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how it is undeniably a coaching issue.

Hint: Saying “how it is taught and practiced, how it is rewarded/punished, how it is mentally prepared for“ is not evidence. That’s nothing but speculative, unsubstantiated nonsense.




Except that he didn’t even make an argument. He simply posted a baseless claim. With not one shred of evidence to support it.

You know why? Because he can’t!

Isn’t it ironic how the guy that worked his way into a multimillion dollar gig that millions of fans wished they were smart or talented enough to secure themselves is the one that is dumb while the millions of fans that don’t have the job and are doing something completely different with their lives have all the answers?

You’d think these Billion dollar owners would have realized by now that all they need to do is scour internet message boards to find their next coaching and/or front office geniuses.

If I could like this infinitely for the rest of my existence on this forum (which, hopefully, shall coincide with the rest of my existence on this planet), I would.

 

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

It is not mechanics being discussed here. Rather, it is positive teaching and learning techniques that lead to success. And "mental" can be fixed over time with proper methodology. Medical and educational studies abound about this topic.

These professionals have been shooting free throws for years and have well-established mechanics. They likely shoot 90%+ in practice. Huerter, Monk, Sabonis, Fox, and others too often have times of free throw mental melt down. Look to why.

Your final point is disingenuous and warrants no response. It is certainly not determinative as you imply.

It's clear, per your response to my comment, along with your responses to other people's comments in this thread, that you have a significantly bigger agenda against Mike Brown, and his lack of presence in Sacramento would magically solve all of your life's issues...

Since I do not share those same sentiments and, because of that fact, this little argument we are involved in is not going to go anywhere, I will, respectfully, take myself out of it. If you want to live inside of your little bubble that has somehow convinced you that Mike Brown is the ONLY reason behind Malik's struggles at the free throw line, then you are entitled to your opinion. I just don't want, nor do I need, any part of it.

 

[The_Jamal]

sorry I thought you were arguing Keegan didn’t struggle against quicker 2-3 type players.

I don’t really have an answer to solve it without some sort of trade. I think this team is just poorly constructed.

This is where you just get downright silly and lose me. I think you're relatively smart then you go and say "poorly constructed"

How is a team 82-59 over the last 2 years poorly constructed? How could that even be possible?

 

[QWERTYLICIOUS]

sorry I thought you were arguing Keegan didn’t struggle against quicker 2-3 type players.

I don’t really have an answer to solve it without some sort of trade. I think this team is just poorly constructed.

This team is definitely NOT "poorly constructed".

It's just not constructed well enough (yet).

 

[megapoxy]

didn't he once do this?

Also the incident with Klay that led to Draymond choking Gobert afterwards.

 

[NewArena]

Give it up to Davion as well. Super efficient night for him.

7 of 8 from the field and not a single three pointer. That's actually a very very good sign, going forward.

 

[NewArena]

This team is definitely NOT "poorly constructed".

It's just not constructed well enough (yet).

How people expected us to go from Vlade as GM, straight into the 90's Bulls ovenight is beyond me.

 

[GWD]

It's clear, per your response to my comment, along with your responses to other people's comments in this thread, that you have a significantly bigger agenda against Mike Brown, and his lack of presence in Sacramento would magically solve all of your life's issues...

Since I do not share those same sentiments and, because of that fact, this little argument we are involved in is not going to go anywhere, I will, respectfully, take myself out of it. If you want to live inside of your little bubble that has somehow convinced you that Mike Brown is the ONLY reason behind Malik's struggles at the free throw line, then you are entitled to your opinion. I just don't want, nor do I need, any part of it.

Your viewpoint(s) and withdrawal from this discussion is respected. It is unfortunate that you have unnecessarily personalized your observations and factually misconstrued my opinions.

Just a final thought for your consideration. What is somehow obscured is that I hold no animus against Coach Brown or any of the King's coaches. I do not now, nor have ever, called for his replacement. What is consistent is a call for sound and proven behavior modification techniques that address and correct the needs when a team weakness is observed. That may mean a modification to Coach Brown's teaching philosophy here and there, but I believe he is capable of advancing and developing his coaching skills.

As a dedicated King's fan, and confident of this team's potential, I would like that potential fully reached. My comments are all directed toward that goal.

No reply expected.

 

[GWD]

The bolded portion is especially hilarious considering you offered nothing but a baseless opinion. Which is likely why you expected to be “flamed”.

How about, you know, offering up some worthwhile, factually based evidence to support your assertion? I mean, you’re positioning yourself as a qualified expert on the subject. So, please, educate everyone.

Burden of proof is on you to demonstrate how it is undeniably a coaching issue.

Hint: Saying “how it is taught and practiced, how it is rewarded/punished, how it is mentally prepared for“ is not evidence. That’s nothing but speculative, unsubstantiated nonsense.




Except that he didn’t even make an argument. He simply posted a baseless claim. With not one shred of evidence to support it.

You know why? Because he can’t!

Isn’t it ironic how the guy that worked his way into a multimillion dollar gig that millions of fans wished they were smart or talented enough to secure themselves is the one that is dumb while the millions of fans that don’t have the job and are doing something completely different with their lives have all the answers?

You’d think these Billion dollar owners would have realized by now that all they need to do is scour internet message boards to find their next coaching and/or front office geniuses.

Interesting, but unnecessarily hostile in nature.

Just for your information. I worked for thirty years in a profession that is heavily involved in education, training, behavioral modification, human interaction, and that requires advanced studies. My opinions on those topics are based on my experiences, readings, and studies. A bibliography or references to particular resources are inappropriate in this format.

And yes, I expected to be "flamed" due to many on this forum that do not have such a background or understanding. It is simply a human trait in reacting to the new or unknown.

 

[twslam07]

Just because we don't have anyone else does not support that claim. He struggles against Booker, Edwards, Shai and other quicker players. Their is a reason Fox shifts onto those guys on defense. Fox isn't really long enough but he can stay in front of them. Booker ate us up until we put Edwards on him. These comments are not a slam on Keegan. I think he is a very good defender.

Just for fun I looked at length across 4, 3, 2's as a comparison for Kings and the other top 6 western teams. I had to make some judgement calls like I put Fox in that group because he is bigger than Davion or Malik and has to play the bigger players on defense. Did the same thing with Shai. It is interesting when you compare standing reach across the wing players and teams we do well and teams with whom we struggle. Pels and Clippers are clearly longer with the Pels the worst. Clippers are a bit better for us as Powell and Mann aren't terribly long. I put OKC as yellow as they can flip Jalen and Shai to guard and bring in Cason Wallace and Jaylin Williams and get longer quickly.

View attachment 12460

Oh but we do. Fox, Mitchell, and Ellis all have great lateral quickness yet Murray is chosen as the POA defender in that zone.

Also, Booker is not too quick for Murray. In fact, he’s really not too quick for most SGs so I’m not sure how that supports your claim.

Murray moves his feet and hips very well for a player with his size & length. His ideal position to defend is SF but he can certainly flex up (PF) and down (SG and sometimes even PG). I think it’s a bit disingenuous to claim that Murray can’t guard quicker wings when SF is largely considered to be a wing. If you define “wings” as SGs (Edwards & Booker) or PGs (SGA), perhaps the disagreement is in how we define that term differently.

Nobody is saying it wouldn’t be ideal to have more defenders on this team. Fox - 3&D SG - Murray - 3&D PF - Sabonis is basically the ideal starting lineup depending on if Murray becomes that 3rd star and how limited the 3&D players are (e.g., are they strictly C&S? Can they put the ball on the floor? Etc.).